1 1 HEARINGS ON RAPE AND STAFF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT 2 IN U.S. PRISONS 3 4 Rockville Correctional Facility, 5 Indiana Department of Corrections 6 7 Thursday, March 13, 2008; 9:00 a.m. 8 9 U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice 10 Programs Building 11 810 7th Street, Main Conference Room, Third Floor 12 Washington, D.C. 13 14 15 PANEL MEMBERS: 16 Steven McFarland, Chair 17 Carroll Ann Ellis 18 19 20 Reported by: 21 David Corbin 2 1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 WITNESS PAGE 3 J. David Donahue, Commissioner, IDOC 5 4 Dick Brown, Assistant Superintendent, Rockville 61 5 Rose Marie Lawson, Lieutenant, Rockville 61 6 Vance Raham, Physician, Rockville 142 7 Cheryl Bennett, Nurse, Rockville 142 8 Pam Ferguson, Classification Supervisor, RCF 171 9 Fran Smith, Unit Manager, Rockville 171 10 Jerry Newlin, Internal Affairs, Rockville 171 11 Randy Koester, Chief of Staff, IDOC 177 12 Julie Stout, Superintendent, Rockville 292 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 3 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: All right. Let's get 3 started. Good morning. My name is Steve McFarland. 4 I serve on this Review Panel for Prison Rape, 5 together with my co-panelist, Carroll Ann Ellis, who 6 heads up the Victim Services Division of Fairfax 7 County, Virginia Police Department. It's our 8 privilege -- my day job is working in the Office of 9 Deputy Attorney General in the U.S. Department of 10 Justice. It's our privilege to explore what are the 11 common characteristics of sexual predators and 12 victims and the characteristics of those prisons who 13 according to the National Inmate Survey by the 14 Bureau of Justice Statistics have the highest and 15 the lowest incidence of sexual assault and staff 16 sexual misconduct. The third member of the Panel 17 had to resign last week due to the press of a new 18 appointment in the Federal Government, so there's 19 the two of us. But we have had the privilege, 20 thanks to Commissioner Donahue, we have a lot of 21 documents and we have gone through them, had a 4 1 number of sets of eyes go over them. So as far as a 2 couple of just housekeeping matters. We have any 3 written statements that you submitted and we have 4 read them. You needn't feel obliged to read them 5 again, but -- it would leave us more time for 6 questions, but that's certainly your privilege if 7 you wish to, or you can summarize them. And just 8 one other request. If you would be as specific to 9 Rockville. We're not here to talk about the whole 10 system, except to the extent that the systemwide 11 process and procedure impacts Rockville. So being 12 as specific and as direct and as candid of course. 13 As your testimony is under oath, of course that is 14 the expectation and would be very helpful. 15 Ms. Ellis, did you have any remarks you wanted to 16 begin with? 17 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Good morning and 18 welcome. Thank you for coming. Look forward to 19 hearing what you have to say. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: This morning we have the 21 privilege of hearing from the commissioner of the 5 1 Indiana Department of Corrections, David Donahue. 2 I've had the pleasure of meeting Commissioner 3 Donahue several times before and I can say that I'm 4 optimistic that if he brings the same energy to this 5 issue as he does to prisoner reentry, for which he 6 is known as leading a state that is ahead of the 7 field in the area of prisoner reentry, I'm sure that 8 this will be a productive day and looking forward to 9 your testimony, sir. If I may ask you to raise your 10 right hand, I'll swear you in. Do you solemnly 11 swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to 12 give this Panel is the truth, the whole truth, and 13 nothing but the truth? 14 DAVID DONAHUE: I do. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: Floor is yours, sir. 16 Welcome. 17 DAVID DONAHUE: Thank you very much. 18 Again, my name is J. David Donahue. I'm the 19 commissioner of the Indiana Department of 20 Corrections. I want to first extend my appreciation 21 to the both of you for allowing us to be here today 6 1 and to submit testimony on information specific to 2 the Rockville Correctional Facility and also how we 3 have accepted or adopted the Prison Rape Elimination 4 Act objectives. As commissioner of the department, 5 I am the chief executive officer of the prison 6 system that has 21 adult facilities, seven juvenile 7 facilities, with over 26,000 adults incarcerated and 8 approximately 1,000 juveniles currently 9 incarcerated. 8.4 percent of our adult population 10 are females. 17.7 percent of our adjudicated 11 population on the juvenile side are females. And 12 the department has over 9,000 employees and contract 13 staff. Each of those staff members, contract 14 employees included, no matter their title, are 15 considered correctional workers first. And as 16 corrections professionals, each employee must 17 observe fundamental correctional practices, 18 including the duty to protect the inmate population 19 from all forms of violence, including sexual 20 violence. When President Bush signed into law the 21 Prison Rape Elimination Act on September 4, '03, it 7 1 was probably a knee-jerk reaction, or for lack of a 2 better term, a consensus, within the community of 3 corrections that this was a step probably not 4 necessary. The common phrase for commissioners, 5 wardens and directors around the country is that we 6 already had an implementation of zero tolerance for 7 prison rape. But there's obviously no doubt that 8 prison culture in America today is changing. For 9 those of us who started our careers in corrections 10 decades ago, we've witnessed a great evolution. 11 Once there was very little focus for rehabilitation. 12 Truly there was very little preparation for 13 successful release for offenders. Prison was itself 14 a place that meant that, you know, high contrast to 15 freedoms that we experience necessarily as free 16 citizens, the programming resources were simply not 17 available. And today the primary focus obviously 18 has shifted. In those days the focus was to 19 maintain that offenders in fact didn't escape, and 20 the focus was not on allowing offenders to disrupt 21 the running of a smooth operation. And so long as 8 1 the facility ran smoothly, what happened among the 2 offenders in prison in those days stayed in prison. 3 I utilized the Hogan's Heroes Sergeant Schultz 4 theory that what occurred basically was if something 5 did happen in those days, we heard nothing, we saw 6 nothing, and we said nothing. 7 As we continue to commit ourselves to 8 institutional reforms though, those of us that have 9 made our careers in corrections and literally have 10 devoted our lives in protecting the public, we 11 believe it's a much broader view today. We now know 12 our mission of public safety is not advanced by 13 allowing offenders to live in an institution that 14 would promote a violent environment. In fact, this 15 virtually guarantees that offenders would reoffend 16 after release. And certainly those that support the 17 reforms contemplated by PREA understand that. To 18 that end, Indiana has made significant change over 19 the last several years. As the PREA Commission 20 toured literally the country for regional meetings 21 early on, there was recognizable disdain for the 9 1 process. But in March of '05 I had the pleasure of 2 testifying, shortly after my appointment as 3 Commissioner, at a regional meeting hosted at the 4 Notre Dame Law School. And I listened to a 5 gentleman that day who truly had been a victim of 6 sexual assault while serving time in the Ohio 7 Department of Rehabilitation and Correction. It was 8 obviously a very emotional day for the individual 9 that testified and for all the Panel members of the 10 Commission as well as the observers of that. He 11 vividly relayed how he was a victim of repeated 12 sexual assault by the offender population. And my 13 compassion for that individual was acknowledged. I 14 felt very uncomfortable with the testimony but also 15 emotionally moved by his strength to support his 16 comments. 17 But after he spoke there was significant 18 discussion about what can we do to protect 19 individuals like him. I often say that people are 20 sent to prison as punishment, not for punishment. 21 No human being should deserve to endure such threats 10 1 to their safety and well-being. Departments of 2 Correction cannot begin to make a positive impact on 3 the lives of those that are incarcerated unless the 4 agency first ensures that inmates who reside within 5 their facilities are afforded an environment that is 6 conducive to rehabilitation. This begins by 7 offering safe conditions of confinement. 8 After I returned from those PREA meetings, 9 I called key staff together in our department and 10 drafted literally a new policy, policy 0201115, 11 specifically designed to guide staff on sexual 12 assault prevention and reporting. This new 13 procedure became effective May 25 of 2005 and 14 clearly established the department's zero tolerance 15 for sexual misconduct. It also authorized improved 16 staff orientation and training designed to emphasize 17 zero tolerance, and included detailed guidelines for 18 educating the offender population of the 19 department's new standard. Each facility is to 20 assign a PREA coordinator, develop a sexual assault 21 prevention committee. This procedure also sets out 11 1 guidelines for reporting and tracking incidents of 2 sexual misconduct. Coupled with this procedure, the 3 department designed brochures to give the inmates 4 that describe the PREA mandates. And the 5 department's drive toward zero tolerance continues. 6 The department also designed and printed posters 7 outlining PREA activity and support, which were 8 placed in key areas throughout all adult and 9 juvenile facilities. In the spring of 2006, the 10 department installed a telephone system, acronym hot 11 line system. This is the first system, actually it 12 was introduced in our juvenile facilities, that 13 utilizes the regular inmate or offender housing unit 14 telephones. The offender, by calling a specific 15 posted number, can leave a confidential message for 16 internal affairs investigators. The purpose is to 17 provide immediate and safe ways for inmates to 18 report misconduct by fellow inmates or staff. The 19 tool also proved successful and was rolled out in 20 all of our adult facilities. Today the acronym is 21 our TIPS system, Timely Information to Promote 12 1 Safety. The system is monitored daily. 2 A review of the TIPS activity at the 3 Rockville Correctional Facility since January of 4 2007 indicates there have been complaints raised 5 about a variety of conditions of confinement issues. 6 But, there were no communications from offenders 7 regarding sexual violence or potential threats of 8 sexual violence from the system. In December of 9 2005, the Indiana Department of Corrections also 10 blew up, for lack of better terms, very arduous, 11 five-step bureaucratic offender grievance system. 12 By all indications, that system that was in practice 13 at the time actually dissuaded offenders from filing 14 grievances. The new process today is much more 15 streamlined, informal reporting of complaints to 16 unit team members for resolution. The department 17 built a new Web-based grievance tracking system that 18 allows visual reports to be generated. These 19 enhanced reports permit a closer look at the types 20 of complaints being raised by inmates and the staff 21 members potentially involved. To assist early 13 1 resolution of offender issues, the department also 2 changed facility protocols requiring members of the 3 facility's executive team to schedule time in our 4 institution dining halls to discuss specific 5 offender issues. On the Legislative front, the 6 Indiana Department of Corrections crafted 7 legislation in 2005 that would enhance the sentences 8 of sexual misconduct, which pertain to those who 9 engage in sexual intercourse or sexual deviant 10 conduct with those individuals who are currently 11 lawfully detained. The legislation raised from a 12 Class D felony to a Class C felony those individuals 13 that were engaged in sexual activity with an 14 incarcerated adult. It moved from a Class C felony 15 to a Class B felony those individuals that were 16 sexually active with a juvenile offender. 17 The purpose behind this enhancement was to 18 ensure those staff that crossed the lines would 19 truly face incarceration themselves. And this 20 message would be a drumbeat throughout our employee 21 orientation and training programs moving forward and 14 1 has been. Although the department initially was not 2 successful in getting this measure passed in 2005, 3 we did not give up on that idea, and we tried again 4 in 2007 and were successful in persuading the 5 Indiana lawmakers to unanimously support this 6 legislation and it is now in fact a law. During the 7 2006 session of the Indiana General Assembly, the 8 department was also successful in introducing a 9 change in the law that moved Indiana sex offender 10 registry under the auspices of our department and, 11 among other things, allows the department to 12 restrict credit time for sex offenders that refuse 13 to engage in merely sex offender treatment. During 14 the current session of the Indiana General Assembly, 15 the department proposed a measure which would allow 16 the expansion of the definition of a crime of sexual 17 deviant conduct, to make it clear for prosecutors 18 that individuals incarcerated in prison could be 19 held criminally accountable for the behavior of 20 promoting sexual misconduct in our system if they in 21 fact victimized other offenders. So now inmates can 15 1 be held accountable for that based on the 2 legislation. That's currently in our current 3 session. So we have to wait to see if the measure 4 passes. But our legislative session is scheduled 5 until literally sunset tomorrow. 6 In addition, by my executive order issued 7 in August 2005, each facility removed literally 8 video games used by offenders that contained violent 9 or explicit content. Again, the goal was to remove 10 violence in all forms from the prison setting and to 11 demonstrate a zero tolerance of unacceptable 12 violence and behavior for the inmates. The 13 department also revised a correspondence policy to 14 expand the definition of materials restricted from 15 the population because it would contain pornography. 16 Soon after that policy became effective, July 1st, 17 2006, the American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana 18 commenced legal action claiming the policy unduly 19 restricts offenders' Constitutional rights. The 20 lawsuit is still pending. 21 The Indiana Department of Corrections 16 1 focused its brightest spotlight on PREA in 2007. I 2 assembled a task force composed of some of the 3 brightest correctional leaders Indiana has to offer, 4 including Julie Stout, the superintendent of the 5 Rockville Correctional Facility, who is here with me 6 today. I charged these correctional leaders with 7 the responsibility of changing the very culture of 8 Indiana's correctional facilities and working to 9 instill best practices designed to end sexual 10 victimization. This working group, dubbed the 11 Prison Rape Oversight Group, an acronym known as 12 PROG, was composed of the department's deputy 13 commissioner of operations, facilities 14 superintendents, our director of mental health, 15 planning and research staff, and seasoned internal 16 affairs investigators. The PROG group meets 17 quarterly today to review facility operations and 18 procedures relating to PREA, it examines barriers to 19 PREA implementation, and it examines data being 20 collected by the department's research and planning 21 division. 17 1 In April of 2007, the department hosted a 2 statewide summit to address sexual violence in 3 prison. The theme of the summit was silence is a 4 crime. Guest speakers included national PREA 5 experts, including PREA Commissioner Pat Nolan. The 6 summit coincided with Sexual Assault Awareness Month 7 and brought truly together hundreds of state and 8 local correctional professionals to learn about 9 prevention, detection, treatment and adjudication of 10 sexual misconduct in prison. We have successfully 11 piloted in the department an incident reporting and 12 monitoring and mapping system protocol that helps 13 pinpoint potential dangerous areas within our prison 14 compounds. This particular procedure became a 15 required practice in all of our facilities in 16 November of 2007. The Indiana Department of 17 Correction also began participating in the 18 Protecting Inmates and Safeguarding Communities 19 grant. By executive directive dated November of 20 '07, signed by me, the department introduced a new 21 sexual violence assessment tool, a summary report of 18 1 the tool, and a screening tool to be used at intake 2 to help identify sexual predators and potentially 3 sexual victims. 4 So the question remains, with so much 5 energy being devoted in Indiana to meet the 6 requirements of PREA, why do the results of a recent 7 survey indicate that the Rockville Correctional 8 Facility is not a safe place? Why do the results of 9 this survey suggest that this adult female 10 institution does not adequately protect offenders 11 against sexual victimization by their offenders? 12 First of all, using funds that we received from the 13 Protecting Inmates From Safeguarding Communities 14 grant, the Indiana Department of Corrections 15 conducted its own survey on each facility. The 16 survey conducted at the Rockville Correctional 17 Facility does not support the conclusions drawn by 18 the Bureau of Justice Statistics survey, which 19 showed that 10.2 percent of the offender population 20 engaged in offender-with-offender sexual activity. 21 The department survey, which was conducted in 19 1 December of '07, revealed a much different story. 2 Of the offenders randomly surveyed, 100 percent 3 indicated they were never pressured or forced into 4 having sexual contact. Ninety percent of the 5 population reported they understood the proper steps 6 for reporting sexual violence. Four percent of 7 those did not know what steps to take, but the 8 remaining six indicated that they somewhat knew the 9 steps to take in proper reporting. When one takes a 10 closer look at the Bureau of Justice Statistics 11 numbers and how they were interpreted with the 12 report, they will find out that, of more than the 13 1200 female offenders housed at the Rockville 14 Correctional Facility, only 169 actually 15 participated in the sexual victimization survey. Of 16 these 169, 18 reported they engaged in sexual 17 activity with one or more other female offenders. 18 Certainly an unacceptable measure. But is it a true 19 measure? It's unfortunate that the survey method 20 used did not ask those offenders who did not 21 indicate some sort of victimization to set out at 20 1 least some level of detail, not only to determine 2 whether they are interpreting the question correctly 3 but, even more importantly, to assist the 4 correctional administrators with making improved 5 measures for enhancing the safety of that facility. 6 Truly a missed opportunity and somewhat frustrating 7 for facility staff. 8 Other questions that need to be considered 9 is why three of the top ten facilities scoring the 10 highest propensity for sexual victimization are 11 female institutions. Should the survey be developed 12 that takes into consideration gender-specific 13 issues? 14 Finally, I must congratulate those 15 facilities that showed the lowest propensity for 16 sexual victimization. In fact, the surveys 17 conducted in all six of the top facilities showed no 18 level of sexual victimization whatsoever. Truly a 19 remarkable accomplishment. But it does beg the 20 question whether the results of the survey are 21 skewed by the fact that many offenders did not 21 1 respond. In fact, in one case, as many as 2 62 percent of the offenders surveyed failed to 3 respond. One must question whether the facility can 4 be declared truly the safest in the country and 5 suggest they embrace PREA concepts when two-thirds 6 of the sampling population were not responsive. The 7 willingness of the population to cooperate and 8 communicate certainly must be the factor in 9 determining whether a facility is safe from sexual 10 victimization. 11 Unfortunately, because of its limited 12 questioning on the subject of sexual victimization 13 and because of the extremely broad definitions it 14 used, this survey provides no real idea what's 15 taking place. On the one hand, one might say the 16 facility is not safe and that offenders are raping 17 one another. If obviously this is true, this 18 warrants a strong action against the aggressors, 19 including criminal prosecution and removal to more 20 secured settings. If the people compiling the 21 survey knew this, it was wrong for them to fail to 22 1 notify the Indiana Department of Corrections of the 2 information. However, I submit does the BJS survey 3 indicate that perhaps some offenders are making 4 unwanted sexual advances -- not in an aggressive 5 manner but one out of an attempt to seek 6 companionship? Certainly a much different story. 7 The fact that there has been no physical evidence of 8 sexual assault observed by facility medical staff 9 tends to indicate this scenario may be more likely. 10 I can assure you that the Rockville 11 Correctional Facility is not a dangerous facility 12 with a high propensity for sexual assault. One only 13 has to walk its compound, talk to its offenders, 14 obviously see the staff and know that the facility 15 is a safe facility of offenders -- one whose mission 16 emphasizes open communication and engagement in 17 positive activity. The enthusiasm and compassion 18 shown by the staff at this facility and their 19 commitment to ensuring a safe environment for the 20 inmate population is all too apparent. Whenever 21 there is a claim of sexual violence within the 23 1 Indiana Department of Corrections, staff waits no 2 time in investigating that claim, using experienced 3 investigators and tools such as voice stress 4 analyzers. We also invite the Indiana State Police 5 to join the investigation to provide objectivity and 6 to ensure that evidence can be collected in an 7 appropriate manner that would in fact support 8 conviction, if you will. 9 The results of the survey also beg the 10 question, what are other jurisdictions doing that 11 Indiana should be doing? I can assure members of 12 this panel, members of the PREA Commission, as long 13 as I'm the Commissioner of the Indiana Department of 14 Corrections, the hardworking men and women of our 15 agency who dedicate their lives to public safety 16 will be working to ensure that the IDOC will not 17 stop looking for ways to improve offender safety. 18 Again, thank you for the opportunity. This 19 concludes my testimony and I look forward to your 20 questions. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: Thank you, 24 1 Mr. Commissioner. I want to affirm you and your 2 department for the many innovative and proactive 3 steps that you've taken that you've described in 4 your testimony, such as requiring a PREA coordinator 5 in each of your facilities, the hot line, the 6 streamlining of the grievance procedure, trying to 7 remove the explicit video games, particularly 8 pinpointing potential blind spots and dangerous 9 areas. A number of memoranda indicate you and 10 Ms. Stout and others on staff were repeatedly trying 11 to locate areas where -- of risk. And the new 12 assessment tools and so forth. Those are really 13 encouraging and those are things that I think other 14 systems should consider. Are unwanted sexual 15 advances a violation of a prisoner's rights? 16 DAVID DONAHUE: Absolutely. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Whether by a staff 18 member or an inmate? 19 DAVID DONAHUE: Absolutely. Any unwanted 20 behavior is unwelcomed in our system and -- 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: How about behavior that 25 1 does not meet the definition in your policy of 2 abusive sexual contact but nevertheless is sexual in 3 nature? If it's unwanted, is that a violation of 4 the rule? 5 DAVID DONAHUE: It is. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Is that a crime? 7 DAVID DONAHUE: It may not lead to 8 criminal prosecution because it doesn't meet the 9 statutes conforming in Indiana. But it would be a 10 departmental policy and be subject to inmate 11 discipline procedures. 12 STEVE MCFARLAND: And by policy, we're 13 referring to the one that you referenced that became 14 effective July 1, '05. 15 DAVID DONAHUE: Well, the inmate 16 discipline policy is a separate policy. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: But the definition of 18 misconduct is the one from the '05 policy? 19 DAVID DONAHUE: That's correct. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: Now, what about -- what 21 about consensual sexual acts between inmates? Is 26 1 that permissible? 2 DAVID DONAHUE: There is no such thing as 3 a consensual act in our system. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: Why is that? 5 DAVID DONAHUE: Again, it's a violation of 6 policy. We don't allow it. And if it's 7 identified -- if the offenders were to acknowledge, 8 for lack of better terms, that they did consent to 9 the behavior, they would still be subject to an 10 inmate discipline process and a procedure. Again, 11 it would not rise potentially to criminal conduct, 12 but there's an inmate discipline procedure that 13 would preclude that. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: So it would or you're 15 not sure whether it would be a crime in Indiana for 16 an inmate to have intimate sexual contact with 17 another inmate, even if they alleged it to be 18 willing and consensual. Is that a crime? 19 DAVID DONAHUE: The current legislation in 20 our system that I alluded to that's currently in 21 draft form in this session would preclude -- excuse 27 1 me, would identify as criminal behavior an offender 2 taking advantage of, in a sexual way, another 3 offender. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: What if they say, nobody 5 took advantage of anybody, it's consensual, she's my 6 girlfriend? 7 DAVID DONAHUE: I would have to defer to a 8 prosecutor in the community. We would obviously 9 package that up as an investigative item, provide 10 that for prosecutorial review and consideration. It 11 would be up to the prosecutor to determine did it 12 meet and conform to the statutory authority 13 associated with criminal behavior. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: But as you understand 15 PREA, and as you understand the policy that you 16 inaugurated in July of '05, there is no such thing 17 as consensual sexual activity between inmates in 18 Rockville? 19 DAVID DONAHUE: That's correct. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. I wanted to ask 21 about your survey. And among the documents, many 28 1 documents that you were gracious enough to provide 2 us, is a document, they're not numbered or dated, 3 but it's entitled Sexual Violence Survey Results, 4 Rockville Correctional Facility, survey administered 5 January 2008. And it's -- it has about 12 rows 6 of -- summarizing the results of the survey. I 7 assume that this -- these are the results of the 8 survey you -- the random survey? 9 DAVID DONAHUE: Could very well be, yes, 10 sir. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: By the way, who is the 12 person in IDOC who is most familiar with the survey? 13 DAVID DONAHUE: That would probably be our 14 research division, and specifically our director of 15 research and planning, Amanda Thornton. She is not 16 here today. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Amanda. 18 DAVID DONAHUE: Thornton. But we do have 19 with us today our chief of staff, Randy Koester, who 20 may be able to communicate on behalf of that. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: Maybe we should reserve 29 1 some of these questions for your chief of staff. 2 But I'm having difficulty understanding or 3 reconciling the results of your survey as indicated 4 on this chart with the testimony you just gave. For 5 example, I think you just said that 100 percent of 6 the offenders randomly surveyed indicated they were 7 never pressured or forced into having sexual 8 contact. And I'm looking at the surveys -- survey 9 results issued by IDOC and reading that six percent 10 of them said they believe that they were pressured 11 or forced -- "I believe that pressured or forced 12 sexual contact between offenders is a big problem in 13 this facility." Only six percent. But in a 14 facility of 1100 to 1200 women, that's pushing 70, 15 72 individuals who think it's a big problem. "I 16 believe that sexual contact between offenders and 17 staff is a big problem." Ten percent. We're now 18 into 120 inmates. That's assuming -- I'm not a 19 sociologist, that's assuming that's not been 20 weighted and so forth. Significant numbers. 21 Certainly not ten percent. Then I'm reading, "I 30 1 know of incidents when staff or a person other than 2 offenders had sex with an offender." Ten percent. 3 "Sexual violence in prison will always happen." 4 Twenty-two percent. "I know the proper steps to 5 report sexual violence." I think you indicated that 6 your survey showed 90 percent understood the proper 7 steps and six percent said they somewhat knew it. 8 This document indicates 44 percent of them said that 9 they knew the steps. And that's significantly short 10 of 90 percent. And then finally, it indicates, "If 11 I give into someone who is pressuring me for sex", 12 this is not talking about I know of someone, this is 13 first person, "that means that I wanted to do it", 14 i.e. consensual, willing. Thirty-four percent 15 disagreed or strongly disagreed with that statement. 16 It's not willing just because I did it. So are we 17 talking about the same survey or -- and should I 18 just defer to -- defer that question to your chief 19 of staff? 20 DAVID DONAHUE: Well, I can confirm with 21 our office literally with the director of research 31 1 and planning if that in fact is the same survey. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Have you seen these 3 kinds of numbers out of Rockville? 4 DAVID DONAHUE: The evidence documents 5 that I've seen out of Rockville don't support that 6 there is a violent tendency associated with sexual 7 victimization -- 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: Well, nobody said 9 anything about violence. There are questions about 10 sexual violence. But -- unless we're referring to 11 pressured or forced sexual contact, that might 12 include violence, that could include extortion, 13 could include intimidation, or you owe me debts. 14 Maybe not violence. Is that fair, that violence is 15 not -- was not the exclusive question in your 16 survey? 17 DAVID DONAHUE: That's correct, that was 18 not the exclusive question in the survey. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Who administered the 20 survey at Rockville? Was it an outside party, 21 consultants, expert, or was it done within staff? 32 1 DAVID DONAHUE: It would have been done 2 within the staff. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. And were the -- 4 how many -- do you know how many folks at Rockville 5 participated in the survey? 6 DAVID DONAHUE: Do not. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: Well, how -- do you have 8 an explanation for the difference between your 9 testimony this morning and the National Inmate 10 Survey results that you correctly stated indicate 11 that 10.2 percent of the inmates at Rockville have 12 been victimized in a sexual way by another inmate 13 and that two percent, which would be extrapolated to 14 about 22 victims, indicated nonconsensual sexual 15 acts, staff-on-inmate? Yet it's your testimony this 16 morning that 100 percent of the folks -- of the 17 inmates at Rockville have -- say that they have 18 never had -- never been pressured or forced into 19 having sexual contact. Now, I guess that leaves 20 some wiggle room to say, well, they said they were 21 never pressured, but maybe there is rampant 33 1 consensual, which you indicated there isn't such a 2 thing, but as far as they are concerned, consensual 3 sexual activity going on. How do you explain the 4 differences, if you can? I realize neither of us 5 are statisticians, but this is -- you're the head of 6 the department and I know how concerned you are 7 about the subject. How do you explain the 8 differences between these two surveys? 9 DAVID DONAHUE: Well, I truly can't draw 10 empirical outcomes to either instruments. I can 11 only utilize the historical trends of data 12 collection that we measure. I visit facilities 13 routinely. I've often told my boss if I could 14 relocate my office to a correctional facility that 15 would be fine with me, versus being at the capital. 16 I've been to Rockville Correctional Facility a 17 number of times. I've walked that compound, I've 18 talked to offenders, I've talked to staff, I've done 19 it during normal business hours and I've been there 20 off hours. The information that we garnered from 21 our own survey instrument supports that the 34 1 offenders that responded, as we indicated, were 2 never pressured or forced to have sexual contact. 3 The 18 offenders that responded to the BJS survey, 4 you know, I can only assume their level of 5 interpretation of the survey instrument because I 6 wasn't involved in that, don't know what the 7 outcomes were. But, again, in the absence of 8 evidence, in the absence of having -- and we have 9 such a robust opportunity for offenders to 10 communicate to us. That's what I tried to convey in 11 my testimony prior. There are a phenomenal number 12 of access points that, if an individual felt that 13 they were unsafe, if they were involved in any 14 environmental activity that would put them in harm's 15 way, whether it was overt sexual gestures or any 16 other activity, environmentally or operational, 17 there is so many other avenues other than survey 18 instruments to communicate about their personal 19 well-being. And we have literally zero evidence to 20 support that the behavior is, as you utilize the 21 word, rampant. I'm a realist, I've been in this 35 1 business several years, and I've been in a number of 2 correctional facilities. Good things go on in 3 correctional facilities every day. And bad things 4 can happen at any good correctional facility. 5 You're dealing with human beings, we're not making a 6 product, we're not manufacturing a material to 7 produce. But based on the commitment and the 8 dedication of the staff at this facility, and the 9 availability, it's a campus setting, dormitory 10 housing, it's an engaged facility, I feel very 11 confident that we're doing a good job of ensuring 12 that there is opportunity for behavioral change and 13 opportunity to return to community in a very 14 appropriate environment. Is it reasonable though to 15 assume that behavior could occur that's 16 inappropriate in a correctional facility? 17 Absolutely. We don't have the ability to literally 18 monitor in an absolute way every activity that goes 19 on in that correctional facility because of the 20 environment and because of the staffing ratios 21 associated with the inmate population. 36 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: Mr. Commissioner, I 2 think in your testimony you stated that, or at least 3 strongly inferred, that BJS's National Inmate Survey 4 can't be all that foolproof if it actually thinks 5 that there are at least six prisons that have no 6 level of sexual activity. You said that was truly a 7 remarkable accomplishment but it begs the question 8 whether the results are skewed. And then you talk 9 about several of them that had low response rates, 10 actually one of the six had below 60 percent 11 response rate. Five of them had 60 percent or 12 higher. And yet in your testimony this morning you 13 indicate that you're confident that 100 percent 14 truly at Rockville have never been pressured or 15 forced into having sexual contact. So help me 16 understand how you can be sure of the accuracy that 17 there's no underreporting going on in your survey 18 but you're not sure about the accuracy of the 19 numbers in BJSs? 20 DAVID DONAHUE: Well, I'm not sure I 21 understand the question, but let me try to respond 37 1 to what I think the allusion of the question was. 2 The survey instrument is merely an information 3 gathering tool. Am I confident that the Department 4 of Corrections survey instrument was reasonably 5 administered with proper outcomes and proper 6 forecasting associated with the intent of the 7 survey? I have confidence in my staff in doing what 8 they intended to do. I obviously wasn't engaged in 9 the Bureau of Justice process, so my objectivity is 10 this. To see those facilities to literally have 11 those outcomes is absolutely phenomenal. And as you 12 have alluded to, I mean, and as I've indicated, in 13 the tenure that I've been in this business, when you 14 have few responses associated with a particular 15 survey instrument, I would question are we in fact 16 gathering as much information as we potentially 17 could. Again, my hat's off to those jurisdictions. 18 I don't want to suggest by any stretch of the 19 imagination that they are not doing phenomenal work. 20 I applaud them, and that begs to differ, again, the 21 issue that I've suggested is what is it they are 38 1 doing that we need to be doing. Because I would 2 like to learn from those promising practices. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: Candidly, do you really 4 think that not a single inmate as of three months 5 ago in Rockville, not a single one, has ever 6 experienced, been pressured or forced into having 7 sexual contact with a staff or inmate? Not a single 8 one? 9 DAVID DONAHUE: You know, I'm not going to 10 sit here and again suggest to you I have to take 11 this as an evidence document that's an 12 empirical-driven document and I can't say that there 13 can't be some manipulation with the outcome of that 14 exhibit. You know, the individuals we incarcerate, 15 obviously they had errors of judgment, that's what 16 promoted their criminal behavior. Sometimes they 17 are not the most forthright and forthcoming 18 populations, depending on circumstances, and I 19 understand that. I was literally at one of our 20 correctional facilities this past week, a female 21 institution, a different institution, but I was so 39 1 emotionally moved by testimony that I was engaged in 2 with offenders who were talking about their 3 community circumstances, what they were going to 4 return to after confinement. This is one of our 5 reentry centers. As I heard those, what I consider 6 to be very emotional, heartfelt conversations, I 7 also had that skepticism point in my conversations, 8 are they being accurate, are they being truthful, 9 and is it being very consistent with reality. 10 Because, you know, I have to be a little cynical in 11 our business. I think that's our job. We have to 12 assume if someone has indicated to us that they have 13 been assaulted, I take that literally. We 14 investigate that to the fullest degree. Whether 15 it's a sexual misconduct or whether it's some other 16 type of behavior. If someone indicates that they 17 have been a victim of any event, we take that 18 literally for face value that that's a true 19 statement. So we investigate with full resources to 20 ensure that in fact we can prove that position. 21 Conversely, more often than not, we have seen on 40 1 occasion where offenders have shared information 2 with us and it didn't pan out to the accuracy that 3 we were led to believe early on. So to that end I'm 4 not naive, but we work hard to ensure that those 5 tenets of concern are addressed aggressively to 6 mitigate those moving forward. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: About a year ago, 8 apparently your PREA committee at Rockville met on 9 February 27, 2007, the minutes indicate that a 10 number of the folks, the staff who are here today, 11 were present. And in the second paragraph it -- the 12 minutes read, "there have been numerous notes in the 13 shift records concerning problems in the dorms with 14 'girlfriends'. Staff need to watch this closely." 15 Then it gives three examples of unwanted sexual 16 advances: an inmate attempting to put her hands 17 down the pants of the victim; another one giving an 18 unwanted kiss; another one rubbing up against her 19 body from behind and reaching her hands up towards 20 her breast; another one involving harassment. And 21 then the committee lists, identifies, not -- these 41 1 aren't claims, this is, "five offenders have been 2 identified as sexual predators." Of course the five 3 individuals, the names are redacted but their inmate 4 numbers are listed. "It was determined that these 5 offenders would meet the criteria for administrative 6 segregation." And we will talk to the witness later 7 who heads up your ad seg. "However, Rockville 8 doesn't have adequate bed space available in 9 segregation. We will need to determine a location 10 to segregate sexual predator offenders." Apparently 11 your staff can name, at least nine months before the 12 survey was taken at the same institution, they can 13 name at least five inmates who are sexual predators 14 and need to be segregated. Doesn't that shake your 15 confidence a little bit in the rather glib of 16 numbers that are coming from the survey that you 17 prefer to listen to rather than BJS survey? 18 DAVID DONAHUE: Well, again, I think 19 you're inserting my preference. I didn't say I 20 preferred either survey. I just said that our 21 survey didn't agree with the survey by the Bureau of 42 1 Justice. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Well, which one do you 3 believe? 4 DAVID DONAHUE: I don't necessarily 5 advocate. But, again, information is bad. And I'm 6 not going to sit here and suggest to you that I 7 believe one over the other. I am just indicating to 8 you that the information that came out in the survey 9 as a result of the Bureau of Justice did not comport 10 to what we routinely see in our organization. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: I just have two quick 12 questions and I'll give it to Mrs. Ellis. The TIPS 13 line, which I think is a great idea, that requires a 14 pin number for access; is that correct? 15 DAVID DONAHUE: The offender pin number. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: Yeah. So you can track 17 who made the call? 18 DAVID DONAHUE: That's correct. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: And are there 20 repercussions for a false report? 21 DAVID DONAHUE: You know, we utilize 43 1 interview techniques to encourage folks to be 2 honest. We receive a phenomenal number, in our 3 juvenile division specifically, the hang-ups and so 4 we go back through counseling -- 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: Just talking about 6 Rockville though. Do you know whether there are 7 repercussions? Somebody is calling and giving them 8 a tip that somebody was raped last night. In fact, 9 they weren't even in the same dorm and you can prove 10 it. Any repercussions -- 11 DAVID DONAHUE: You know, I don't know 12 that we've ever had that type of allegation on the 13 TIPS line. I'm saying when we have false 14 allegations, we will intervene with counseling and 15 we will intervene with the intent of the TIPS line. 16 We do get the call and hang-up objectives. But it's 17 really not used in a punitive manner, it's merely 18 used in a safety manner. We want to encourage the 19 utilization of it. So we always investigate those, 20 we make sure that individuals confirm and converse 21 with the individuals using the calls. 44 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: Have you given some 2 consideration in order to encourage reports to 3 making it anonymous so that you don't need a pin 4 number, that they know that they can't be tracked? 5 And, yeah, you might get some cranks, but you're 6 also going to get the reporting that otherwise would 7 be intimidated by a concern that as a snitch 8 somebody is going to find out. 9 DAVID DONAHUE: You know, I haven't looked 10 at the phone system to that level. We have a 11 variety of ways that anonymous information comes to 12 us already. I mean I get literally hundreds of 13 pieces of mail a week. We have -- you know, whether 14 it's visitors, whether it's families and friends 15 through visitation, whether it's staff or whether 16 it's offenders, there is a variety of ways we can 17 get information brought to our attention. This just 18 means the current system requires, because of our 19 data systems, requires that you have to literally 20 cue in the pin number. But I haven't entertained 21 that idea, but it's not a bad idea. 45 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: Lastly, you mentioned 2 that the Indiana State Police are brought in in 3 cases of sexual assault. When are they brought in? 4 Is it a matter of policy, are they always called? 5 If not, who's making the decision not to call or 6 whether to call? 7 DAVID DONAHUE: Well, if there is a 8 recognizable potential for a criminal consideration, 9 they will always be brought in. And we don't make 10 that decision. Again, that prosecution decision is 11 made in the prosecuting level. We don't package 12 anything from our agency directly to the prosecutors 13 in Indiana. State Police are the law enforcement 14 partner that actually does that. So on any behavior 15 that rises to the level that looks to be of criminal 16 nature, Indiana State Police will always be brought 17 in. 18 STEVE MCFARLAND: Who at Rockville makes 19 that determination of whether it might rise to the 20 level of criminal conduct? 21 DAVID DONAHUE: That would be a call 46 1 between the investigator at the facility and the 2 superintendent. And then our central headquarters 3 intelligence division would also be brought into 4 that discussion. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you happen to know, 6 and I can ask Ms. Stout, but do you happen to know 7 who at central would get phone calls or should get 8 the phone calls from the investigator at Rockville 9 regarding any assault so that somebody at central is 10 making the decision? Who at central is making the 11 decision, yeah, that sounds like it should be 12 referred to the prosecutor? 13 DAVID DONAHUE: Well, again, let me be 14 clear. The facility will make the decision. They 15 will also notify central headquarters as well. 16 Every incident that occurs, for example if we have a 17 use of force incident, just use that as an example. 18 We have an emergency command division in our 19 department that does post-review analysis of all 20 those events. So if the facility were to not defer 21 to the Indiana State Police, then we have redundant 47 1 reviews that we can obviously go back and bring the 2 State Police in if necessary because there was a 3 piece of information not seen at the time. But our 4 two chief investigators at central headquarters, one 5 is a gentleman by the name of Willard Plank, the 6 other is a gentleman by the name of Todd Tappi. And 7 either one of those individuals would be utilized at 8 the request of the local investigator. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. But who is the 10 person at Rockville who is making the decision these 11 facts might rise to the level of criminal activity, 12 I'm going to call Mr. Plank or Todd? 13 DAVID DONAHUE: Again, the superintendent 14 of the facility would ultimately be the ultimate 15 decision maker. She would rely on, in this case, 16 her investigative team. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Ms. Stout? 18 DAVID DONAHUE: That's correct. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: And finally, do the 20 State Police have any special training, those who 21 work with you on these criminal investigations? 48 1 DAVID DONAHUE: I can't speak specifically 2 to State Police training. I'm very confident in 3 their capabilities, they're a phenomenal agency. 4 But to their end I can't speak specifically to their 5 training. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Thank you. 7 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Morning again, 8 Mr. Commissioner. I too would like to commend you 9 on your proactive approach to PREA. Impressive is 10 the conference that was held in 2007. And I'm 11 wondering, to that setting did you bring 12 community-based organizations, victim advocates, 13 people who work specifically with sexual assault? 14 Were they a part of that training as well? 15 DAVID DONAHUE: It was a broad audience. 16 We had hundreds of participants. We have 92 17 counties in the state. Every county was involved in 18 the process because we have local detention 19 facilities. This was not just a state department or 20 state prison initiative, this was a detention or 21 confinement initiative for lack of better terms. We 49 1 have a Federal prison in the jurisdiction. So it 2 was a very broad audience and a lot of subject 3 matter experts associated with not only treatment 4 and intervention but also investigation and 5 containment associated with evidence for 6 prosecution, et cetera. 7 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Across your system do 8 you encourage collaboration with community 9 organizations working outside of the prison gates 10 and dealing with people who are experts in the area 11 of sexual assault and victim assistance? 12 DAVID DONAHUE: We do. And as 13 Mr. McFarland alluded to, we have a strong 14 commitment in Indiana on reentry. This year we'll 15 be releasing 18,000 prisoners. So the continuity of 16 services and the continuum of services, and 17 specifically I'll utilize the female offender. We 18 see a lot of females that come in, have low 19 self-esteem, they have been a part of a very 20 difficult environment prior to incarceration. And 21 so, for lack of better terms, creating a holistic 50 1 approach while they are in confinement to interrupt 2 that cycle of activity and encourage and promote 3 opportunity moving forward, we want to make sure 4 that they have all the resources available to them 5 in the community to avoid that potential problem 6 again. And so we have a strong community 7 corrections authority in our jurisdiction, one of 8 the few states in the country that actually has a 9 strong community corrections authority by statute. 10 We have a funded stream to local community 11 corrections programming. We have 74 counties in our 12 state that are participants in that program. So 13 there is a significant amount of collaboration, yes, 14 ma'am. 15 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: By in large what has 16 been the biggest challenge in implementing PREA? 17 DAVID DONAHUE: Well, you know, it's a 18 fine line between what level do you communicate. I 19 love to overcommunicate. That may be in some sense 20 of the word a problem. Because sometimes 21 overcommunication may draw individuals to believe 51 1 that they are trying to give you the answers that 2 you want. If you keep talking about something long 3 enough, they feel like, well, maybe they will stop 4 talking about it if I tell them what they want. So 5 we have done a phenomenal job in the Indiana 6 Department of Corrections of informing staff, 7 training to that, holding folks accountable, 8 enhancing the law so if violations occur penalties 9 are stronger today than they ever were. We spend an 10 enormous amount of energy in our inmate orientation 11 programming and consistent unit management delivery. 12 So communication is critical. There is, again, as 13 I've utilized in my comments earlier, people go to 14 prison as punishment, not for punishment. 15 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: I copied that down. I 16 copied that quote. 17 DAVID DONAHUE: And the relative terms of 18 that is in a cultural way we're an old business. 19 Our oldest prison was built when President Lincoln 20 was in office and it's still doing a great job in 21 our system. But the attitude, whether it's sexual 52 1 victimization or whether it's suicides in prisons, 2 we have zero tolerance for that. There is no such 3 thing as an acceptable number other than zero. To 4 me that's the objective. I was, I guess, you know, 5 in a traditional sense, because I've been in 6 corrections so long, the evolution and training that 7 we all bring to the table is from a different 8 perspective. I fell in love with corrections years 9 ago. A lot of folks go to corrections because they 10 needed a job. That's how I got started. But we 11 have employees that come into our system as 12 corrections nationally as a barrier entry that's 13 fairly low. If you want to become involved in law 14 enforcement, a lot of folks will start in 15 corrections. And then we'll see staff migrate to 16 other forms of law enforcement, maybe community 17 policing or other agencies. So our turnover is 18 obviously of concern. This is not a PREA issue but 19 it's about ensuring that we do a good job of 20 informing folks that there is no such thing as an 21 acceptable level of inappropriate behavior. So if I 53 1 had to summarize what are the challenges, I think 2 the issue is just about the communication moving 3 forward. To be very candid, in our jurisdiction we 4 did not need a Federal mandate to focus on the 5 safety and the security of the corrections system, 6 that mandate comes from my chief executive officer 7 in my jurisdiction known as the Governor. But I 8 commend again the intent, I applaud the effort, and 9 I believe that it's prudent and appropriate for us 10 to look down that path. 11 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: In looking at 12 agenda-responsive strategies, I was taken with the 13 guiding principles in terms of gender, acknowledge 14 that gender makes a difference, create an 15 environment based on safety and respect, and 16 certainly dignity. Something we hear all the time 17 when we are talking about victims. But also 18 relationships, which are key everywhere. In 19 discussing and presenting the relationships that are 20 encouraged and promoted, we're talking specifically 21 about relationships beyond the prison experience. 54 1 My question is what about those relationships that 2 develop when an inmate is incarcerated, positive, 3 negative relationships, relationships that may have 4 some bearing on inmates being pressured into sexual 5 activity? How does that play out in terms of a 6 female prison? I think it perhaps is more 7 complicated and I'm looking forward to a larger 8 discussion on that end. But in terms of those 9 relationships, what are your thoughts about how this 10 is transmitted throughout your system in your 11 facilities as far as relationships among inmates? 12 DAVID DONAHUE: Well, we obviously -- I'll 13 talk a thousand feet and then I'll talk about being 14 on the ground as a practitioner in the institution. 15 Physical plant management, the bricks and the 16 mortar, are a part of how we determine how we're 17 going to place offenders in our system. Rockville, 18 for example, is a dormitory setting. Multiple 19 offenders in one area of the facility co-located. 20 We have institutions that are designed for cell 21 configuration, so we have two-person cells and then 55 1 we have single cells. As we see as offenders come 2 into our system, the majority start as what we term 3 medium custody. That's primarily because we have 4 information only to the social side of prior 5 confinement activity, criminal history, 6 criminalgenic behavior, frequency of that activity. 7 So we measure outcomes associated after confinement 8 with where we really see an offender being placed. 9 So security need being one for community 10 perceptions, and then also for community culture 11 inside our institutions. Our assessment process 12 outlines how we can do that. We have a unit 13 management focus where we measure offenders all 14 along. We see obviously -- I think as human beings 15 we like to be part of something. We like 16 networking, we like friendships, and we foster that. 17 But we also don't want to see people become victims 18 because they feel like they have to align themselves 19 with certain individuals. You know, it's common to 20 see with prison gangs that there is a recruitment 21 initiative that goes on. So, depending on the 56 1 circumstances, we place individuals in communal 2 housing that are prudently identified and 3 appropriate to be in those housing areas. Those 4 individuals that can become potential victims or 5 predators. We also acknowledge that behavior, and 6 we remove them from those areas, that they in fact 7 can become either victimized or potentially become 8 the predator in utilizing their influence, in 9 whatever the behavior is. It's not just about 10 sexual victimization that we focus on. We obviously 11 target that aggressively, but we look at any 12 behavior, whether it's extortion, whether it's -- 13 again, any behavior associated with the environment. 14 Our staff are trained to that. We observe the 15 behavior associated with that. And when we see 16 things that look to be out of the normal 17 relationship expectations, we have to investigate 18 why certain behaviors are recognizable. We have 19 individuals in our system that are, you know, 20 declaring a different sexual orientation than maybe 21 what their physical attributes outline. They have 57 1 elected to be homosexual versus heterosexual, and 2 that's a lifestyle choice they had before they came 3 into prison. And so we have to take those into 4 consideration again in how we protect individuals 5 from becoming potential victims on any behavior. 6 Unwanted -- as Mr. McFarland said, unwanted advances 7 is a concern to us. Welcomed advances are also a 8 concern to us, because we don't tolerate consensual 9 sexual activity in our system. So when it's seen, 10 we obviously have to interrupt that behavior, we 11 have to ensure it's not allowed to continue. So I 12 know it's a long-winded question and answer -- 13 excuse me, answer to your question, but we take a 14 literal approach on a daily basis the environment by 15 which those offenders are in. And our unit 16 management structure, which are the staff that know 17 the offender better than any, the correctional 18 officer in the housing environments, the counselors, 19 the case workers and the unit managers that 20 literally know the offender by name, know when they 21 appear to be having good days versus bad days, can 58 1 assist in ensuring that the facility is as safe as 2 possible for all concerned. 3 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: At your level, sir, 4 are you aware of staff being dismissed for sexual 5 misconduct in your system? 6 DAVID DONAHUE: Absolutely. 7 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Can you talk a little 8 bit about that, numbers? 9 DAVID DONAHUE: Well, I don't have the 10 numbers just off recall. But I can give examples. 11 But we have had fortunately few, but one is too 12 many. Again, not at Rockville, I'm not aware of any 13 overt behavior that was the foundation for 14 dismissal. But I'll speak to two types of 15 dismissal. One at Rockville recently had an 16 employee was discharged because of the elements of 17 an inappropriate relationship. We had a staff 18 member that was starting to take "favorable 19 interest," is the only term I'll equate to. And it 20 was really about contraband issues, not so much a 21 physical event. But it could have led to a physical 59 1 event understanding the potential. We have a staff 2 member at Rockville that was providing favors, and 3 literally a favor rolled up to candy being delivered 4 from the employee to the offender. That's obviously 5 in violation of our policies. But that could have 6 been a precursor to something becoming more 7 recognizable either in a sexual nature or promoting 8 an unsafe environment because of additional 9 contraband being brought into the facility. So 10 that's a dismissal because of an inappropriate 11 relationship with an inmate, even though it had no 12 immediate sexual orientation associated with the 13 behavior. On the opposite side of the analogy, at a 14 different facility, because we had never had overt 15 sexual activity recognizable at Rockville, at one of 16 our juvenile facilities, a juvenile boys facility, I 17 had a female employee that was engaged in literally 18 physical activity of sexual nature with a young man. 19 And she was prosecuted. And the evidence was 20 identified, she took liberties that were beyond 21 understanding with the young man. And we obviously 60 1 interrupted the behavior, terminated the employee, 2 investigated it with partnership with the Indiana 3 State Police, and that individual was prosecuted 4 because it was criminal behavior. And, again, so, 5 you know, those events obviously are always on the 6 forefront of concern and that's why we have a very 7 robust investigative unit and a strong partnership 8 with the Indiana State Police. 9 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Are conjugal visits 10 allowed in Indiana? 11 DAVID DONAHUE: They are not. 12 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Thank you. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you have any female 14 investigators at Rockville? 15 DAVID DONAHUE: I'll have to defer that 16 question to the superintendent. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Mr. Commissioner, thank 18 you very much. Appreciate your time. In the 19 interest of time, I'm going to ask that we just have 20 two of the three members indicated. Dick Brown, 21 assistant superintendent, Rockville, and Lieutenant 61 1 Lawson, if we could speak to them. Because we will 2 have lots of questions for Superintendent Stout at 3 the end of the day. Thank you. 4 DAVID DONAHUE: Thank you. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: Morning. Welcome. 6 Raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly 7 swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to 8 give this Panel is the truth, the whole truth, and 9 nothing but the truth? 10 WITNESSES: I do. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: Would you mind stating 12 your formal names and title and give us a nutshell 13 of what your responsibilities are at Rockville. 14 RICHARD BROWN: My name is Richard Brown. 15 I am the assistant superintendent of operations. I 16 am also the Prison Rape Elimination Act coordinator 17 at the facility, which is also termed the sexual 18 assault prevention program coordinator. My role 19 with that is to ensure that all staff are familiar 20 with the policy, ensure that they are trained with 21 the information that is within the policy, ensure 62 1 they know that we have an absolute zero tolerance 2 for any type of sexual misconduct, any type of 3 violence, period. I'm also responsible to make sure 4 the offenders are made aware that we have a zero 5 tolerance for such. I'm responsible to ensure that 6 the orientation staff give that information to the 7 offenders and make sure that they understand it, 8 they read it, it's discussed, and they sign off on a 9 form where the offender acknowledges that they have 10 received that information and then that information 11 gets placed within the offender's packet. I'm also 12 responsible for holding the monthly meetings with 13 the sexual assault prevention committee, which 14 consists of the superintendent, the two assistant 15 superintendents, two unit team managers, two 16 classification supervisors, an internal affairs 17 investigator, and also a mental health professional. 18 At these meetings, my responsibility is basically to 19 chair them and to make sure that I distribute 20 minutes once the meetings have concluded so all 21 members on the committee are aware of everything 63 1 that was discussed. I'm also responsible as the 2 coordinator to make sure that the quarterly 3 activities take place within the facility, which is 4 a walk-around of the facility on the quarterly basis 5 with myself, members of the PREA committee -- I'm 6 sorry, the sexual assault prevention program 7 committee, and we walk around the facility to 8 identify any area that we may consider to be a 9 high-risk area for any type of sexual contact 10 between offenders. Of course, that's in addition to 11 the normal routine daily walk-arounds that the 12 executive staff take. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: Thank you. Lieutenant. 14 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: My name is Rose Maria 15 Lawson. I've been in the D.O.C. since 2000. I 16 started out for three years as a correctional 17 officer. In 2003, I was promoted to correctional 18 sergeant, and in 2005 I was then promoted to 19 correctional lieutenant. Currently right now I am 20 both shift lieutenant over core and housing. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: Over which? 64 1 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Core and housing. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Core and housing. 3 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes. Core would be on 4 the outside post, the control west gate. My duties 5 entail the scheduling, I do the daily shift roster, 6 I schedule training for yearly in-service for the 7 quick response teams. I be sure that all my staff 8 don't expire on their teams. And I oversee the 9 running of all posts and housing units. I make 10 daily trips throughout the facility. Pretty much 11 from the time I come on shift until I end, until my 12 shift ends, I'm interactive with staff and 13 offenders. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: How long, Lieutenant, 15 have you been at Rockville? 16 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Eight years. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: And Assistant 18 Superintendent Brown, how long have you been at 19 Rockville? 20 RICHARD BROWN: Approximately 16 months. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: So since December, 65 1 November. 2 RICHARD BROWN: I'm sorry, be 18 months. 3 September. September the 24th of '06 I reported to 4 Rockville. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: So you were at the 6 facility when BJS administered their NIS survey? 7 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: And, Lieutenant, were 9 you involved in that? 10 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: No, I was not. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you have anything to 12 do, Lieutenant, with housing or risk classification, 13 predator assessment? 14 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: No, I do not. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: Who would be the person 16 to talk to about that? 17 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: That would be the 18 classification director and unit team manager. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Is that Pam Ferguson? 20 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: And Fran Smith. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: And Fran Smith. Okay. 66 1 Lieutenant, the minutes of the PREA meeting, May 2 meeting -- you don't attend the PREA meetings? 3 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: No, I do not. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: So I should direct this 5 to Mr. Brown. You prepare the minutes? 6 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: The February 27, 8 '07 PREA meeting minutes, as I mentioned when the 9 Commissioner was testifying, indicates that there 10 have been numerous notes in the shift reports 11 concerning problems in the dorms with "girlfriends," 12 staff need to watch this closely. Is that an 13 accurate representation of the discussion at that 14 time? 15 RICHARD BROWN: Yeah, what that discussion 16 would have been about -- of course as the 17 Commissioner alluded to, we have absolutely no 18 consensual sexual acts between the offenders. The 19 offenders themselves term themselves as girlfriends, 20 therefore that's what the discussion was about; 21 where the offenders would come up to staff and claim 67 1 that they were speaking to their girlfriend or that 2 type of thing. So that's what that term would mean. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: So what is the problem 4 in the dorms with, quote, girlfriends? Is the 5 problem that they are referring to each other as 6 girlfriends? 7 RICHARD BROWN: That is a particular 8 problem. But what that specifically is alluding to 9 is offenders, once they approach staff and say they 10 have a problem with their girlfriend, maybe they 11 have decided to break off a relationship that they 12 have encountered or they have determined that they 13 no longer want anything to do with that other 14 offender that they term as a girlfriend, then that 15 particular offender that she's trying to break off 16 that relationship with has become agitated with her. 17 So that's the specific types of things they were 18 talking about. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Well, at this meeting -- 20 I would just like to make sure I understand what the 21 problems are with quote, girlfriends being in the 68 1 dorms. 2 RICHARD BROWN: Okay. The problems would 3 be any time a relationship has formed and then once 4 that relationship has, you know, been broken up, 5 then of course it could create problems -- 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: What kind of problems? 7 RICHARD BROWN: It could result in 8 problems where the offenders are not getting along, 9 it could result in problems where maybe another 10 offender gets involved because they are friends with 11 those two particular offenders, which could result 12 in some sort of actions such as physical action or 13 even verbal. So that's what the results of that 14 were or the mention of those minutes were about. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: What about sexual 16 assault? Is there any implications for these 17 girlfriend relationships resulting in sexual 18 assault, resentment towards your ex-girlfriend or 19 resentment towards an individual who now is with 20 your ex-girlfriend and you feel like you need to 21 make a statement and assault either your 69 1 ex-girlfriend or the person who is now with your 2 ex-girlfriend? Has that ever happened? 3 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, that has happened. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: So sexual assault is 5 wrapped up in this, quote, problem in the dorms with 6 girlfriends. I mean there is the potential for 7 there not just being people with an attitude towards 8 one another but possible violation of the sexual 9 assault prevention policy? 10 RICHARD BROWN: Oh, yes, there is 11 definitely the opportunity there. But I mean that 12 is the reason that we talk about those instances 13 during our PREA meetings with the staff that's 14 involved from the dormitories to hopefully eliminate 15 that. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: Sure. Now, in addition 17 to what implications there might be for sexual 18 assault in these broken relationships, do you ever 19 find at Rockville that some of the relationships 20 go -- get physical, and not in a violent, or angry 21 or assaultive way, but get romantic and involve 70 1 sexual touching that would violate your 2 understanding of the sexual assault prevention 3 policy? 4 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, that could happen, 5 which we would term as abusive sexual contact, which 6 is any unwanted touching. It doesn't have to be any 7 type of actual sexual activity, it would be any type 8 of unwanted touching. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: How about wanted 10 touching? With their girlfriends, can they touch 11 one another in sexual ways? 12 RICHARD BROWN: Absolutely not. 13 Unacceptable. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: So it's unwanted or 15 wanted? 16 RICHARD BROWN: Right. But like I said, 17 we do not even acknowledge the wanted. If we know 18 about an incident where there's two inmates involved 19 in any type of sexual activity at all, they will be 20 written up for a conduct report, which is a 21 violation of our adult disciplinary process. 71 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. So the policy 2 really could do away with the word or the modifier 3 "unwanted" because there is no such thing as wanted 4 sexual activity in your prison; is that correct? 5 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. And I think your 7 earlier answer you said, well, that could happen. 8 Is it your testimony today that it has happened in 9 the past? Are you aware of any event where you 10 think it more likely than not that some of these 11 girlfriends have been -- have crossed the line and 12 violated the policy you just described with respect 13 to sexual touching? 14 RICHARD BROWN: Yes. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. It happens? 16 RICHARD BROWN: Right. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: And at this same meeting 18 on February 27, 2007 there is the discussion that 19 there is, "Rockville doesn't have adequate bed space 20 available in administrative segregation." Was that 21 true a year ago at Rockville? 72 1 RICHARD BROWN: That is correct, if we 2 would have had a large amount of offenders that we 3 deemed necessary to place in administrative 4 segregation. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: What kind of folks do 6 you need to put in administrative seg? 7 RICHARD BROWN: If we have someone that 8 maybe has a history of violence with assaults, 9 possibly on the staff, multiple assaults on other 10 offenders, if it's an offender that is well known 11 for trafficking and has ways of trafficking any type 12 of contraband which would create a security risk at 13 the facility, those types of offenders would be 14 considered for administrative segregation. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: And among the violation 16 actions and assault, that would include sexual 17 assault? 18 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, it would. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: So you're going to want 20 to put, as the minutes indicate, identify sexual 21 predators in ad seg at Rockville; is that correct? 73 1 RICHARD BROWN: I believe in the minutes, 2 let's see, it was determined that these offenders 3 would meet the criteria for administrative 4 segregation. Then it goes on to state, "However, 5 Rockville doesn't have adequate bed space available 6 in segregation." 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: So you wanted to put 8 them there, you just didn't have any room for them? 9 RICHARD BROWN: Not necessarily. No. 10 What I'm stating there is that they would meet that 11 criteria. And when we state that they would meet 12 the criteria, that is not an automatic admission 13 into administrative segregation. That is more or 14 less information for staff to know who these 15 offenders are and to keep a very close eye on those 16 particular offenders. We strategically place them 17 within the dormitories, if we don't place them in 18 segregation, where they are possibly in a room that 19 is right in front of the officer's station within 20 the dormitory. So basically what we do is monitor 21 those offenders on a close basis. Now, it is 74 1 possible if we determine that they need 2 administrative segregation, yes, we would place them 3 in there. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: Well, in the same 5 meeting in your minutes, which you took, you cite 6 three instances, one in which two of the three 7 involved the same predator. And the inmate is -- 8 one gives an unwanted kiss to one victim, and then 9 the other she attempted to put her hands down her 10 pants. Now, evidently somebody is not, quote, 11 keeping a close enough eye on inmate 107797, and she 12 has been identified 13 months ago as a sexual 13 predator. Is it your testimony that even if you had 14 space in ad seg you wouldn't necessarily put her 15 there? 16 RICHARD BROWN: That is not my testimony. 17 She did -- or was placed in segregation and remained 18 in segregation until her release recently. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: What is the policy, 20 Mr. Brown, as to which sex predators do get sent to 21 ad seg -- is it if you have room you would put them 75 1 all in ad seg, or is it on a case-by-case basis 2 depending on, you know, well, this person is an 3 identified predator, meets the sexual violence 4 assessment template or profile, but, gee, we got so 5 many of them that we don't have room so we will just 6 leave her in there and leave her in the dorm and 7 keep a close eye on her? Is that how it works? 8 RICHARD BROWN: It's on a case-by-case 9 basis. That particular offender would be talked 10 about during our committee, which is comprised of 11 the unit team manager and the classification 12 supervisor, which are responsible for the bed 13 management. And of course the unit manager having 14 familiarity with the offenders, that's when that 15 information is discussed. And then as a committee 16 we would make that determination. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: And the committee meets 18 once a month? 19 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, correct. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: So if one of these 21 predators, one of these five predators identified in 76 1 that meeting, the next day assaults someone yet 2 again, you got 29 days when you're supposed to, 3 quote, keep close eye on her while she is still in 4 general population and not in ad seg, is that your 5 testimony? 6 RICHARD BROWN: Even though we wouldn't 7 meet for another month, that particular offender, 8 the unit manager or facilities staff within the 9 dormitory become aware of any type of problem, that 10 offender would be dealt with immediately. We would 11 not wait until that next monthly meeting. 12 STEVE MCFARLAND: How many beds are in ad 13 seg today? 14 RICHARD BROWN: We have a total of 24 beds 15 in segregation, but that is disciplinary and 16 administrative segregation total. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: At any one time do you 18 have excess space in ad seg? 19 RICHARD BROWN: It's rare that we have 20 available space in seg. If we do need to place one 21 in segregation, what we do is we make a 77 1 determination on who is in segregation, has been 2 there for a while that may be released back into 3 open population. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: And Ms. Fran Smith is 5 the person most knowledgeable of ad seg at 6 Rockville; is that right? 7 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: To your knowledge any 9 plans to expand the number of beds for ad seg? 10 RICHARD BROWN: Not to my knowledge, no. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: If you had your 12 druthers, would you? 13 RICHARD BROWN: With a 1200-bed facility, 14 we could definitely probably use more segregation 15 cells, whether it be disciplinary or administrative 16 segregation, with having -- 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Twenty-four beds for 18 1200, not great at math, but isn't that about 19 2 percent? 20 RICHARD BROWN: Yes. Yes, it's low. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: But I guess if 78 1 100 percent of them don't -- have never experienced 2 any unwanted sex, then you don't need many. Then 3 April 27, two months later. The minutes indicate 4 that, again, a discussion about -- second to last 5 paragraph, somebody threatening another inmate for 6 being around her old girlfriend. So the girlfriend 7 problem continues. I wanted to ask you, and I'll 8 ask Ms. Smith, because she is referred to here, but 9 as the individual in charge of operations, let me 10 just ask you, what are secure quarters? I notice on 11 the map that there's a building near the gym labeled 12 secure quarters. What is that? 13 RICHARD BROWN: That's the 24-bed 14 segregation unit. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: That's the ad seg? 16 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you have any inmates 18 housed in the gym? 19 RICHARD BROWN: No, we do not. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: And what's your 21 understanding of the capacity of Rockville, its 79 1 rated capacity? 2 RICHARD BROWN: Our rated capacity is 3 1225. We have dorm one, which is a 100-bed 4 facility, and then we have dorms two, three, four 5 and five, which house 272. We have the 24 beds in 6 segregation. And then we have 14 beds in the 7 infirmary. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: And there are four dorms 9 with 272 each? 10 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: I'm coming up with 1121, 12 not 1225. Did we forget any other beds? One 13 hundred, 24 in ad seg, 14 in the infirmary, and four 14 dorms of 272 each is 1,088 plus 138. Not to play 15 math games, but I just want to know what your 16 capacity is. 17 RICHARD BROWN: Right. It is 1225. Two 18 hundred seventy-two for the four dorms, and then 100 19 for dorm one, 24 for segregation, and 14 for 20 infirmary. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. Do you think the 80 1 facility is overcrowded? 2 RICHARD BROWN: It is crowded. I would 3 not say it's overcrowded. We have 16 offenders per 4 room. Space, there is limited space there. But the 5 way the dormitory is set up, the officer's station 6 is located when you walk into the entrance where 7 they have a visual towards those rooms. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: What's the -- not 9 capacity, but actual number of inmates housed today 10 in Rockville? 11 RICHARD BROWN: Today? 12 STEVE MCFARLAND: Or yesterday? 13 RICHARD BROWN: Yesterday was 1200. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: Twelve hundred even. 15 RICHARD BROWN: At noon yesterday it was 16 1200. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: What's the Image AXS? 18 RICHARD BROWN: Image AXS is a system that 19 is set up where information is entered on all 20 offenders. It has any type of information, like 21 conduct reports, it has any information if they can 81 1 not be or should not be housed within a specific 2 dorm. Of course has their name, number, any type of 3 information that maybe internal affairs may list 4 that staff would need to know about. It's really 5 used very closely by unit team staff and 6 classification as far as making housing assignments. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: So you're pretty careful 8 about the accuracy of the information? 9 RICHARD BROWN: Oh, yes, absolutely. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: Not based on rumor, 11 supposition. What you're going to put in Image AXS 12 needs to be corroborated information? 13 RICHARD BROWN: Needs to be factual 14 information. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: So in the second to last 16 paragraph in your minutes of April 27, it reads, "It 17 was discussed that information concerning offenders 18 involved in sexual relationships should be placed in 19 Image AXS." Do I understand that to be indicating 20 that you were aware at least as of ten months ago 21 that there are offenders in Rockville that are, 82 1 quote, involved in sexual relationships and that 2 that is so corroborated and factual that it should 3 be put into the Image AXS system? 4 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, what that means 5 specifically is any offender that is caught engaging 6 in any type of sexual activity would receive a 7 Class B conduct report for making sexual gestures 8 towards another offender or engaging in any type of 9 sexual activity. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: I didn't understand the 11 former. A sexual gesture did you say? 12 RICHARD BROWN: Yes. Any type of sexual 13 gesture or comment. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: That's what you meant by 15 involved in a sexual relationship, a sexual gesture? 16 RICHARD BROWN: We do term that, yes, 17 because that Class B conduct report is listed just 18 as such, any sexual contact or any gesture made 19 toward another, involving any type of sexual 20 comment, would be a violation of the adult 21 disciplinary policy. And what we do on that 83 1 specifically is once staff are made aware of that, 2 they issue the conduct report, the offender would go 3 to the conduct adjustment board for the hearing. 4 Once found guilty, if found guilty, then that 5 information would be placed on Image AXS. What 6 takes place at that point, it's monitored by the 7 unit team classification staff to ensure that those 8 two offenders are not placed back in the same area. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: But your minutes say 10 that information should be placed, not just 11 information about convictions through the B report 12 or incident report, but any information concerning 13 offenders involved in sexual relationships should be 14 put on the Image AXS? 15 RICHARD BROWN: Right. And that 16 references to that Class B 216 conduct report that I 17 just referred to. What would happen is that the 18 information would be placed on Image AXS so that 19 staff could review that and know not to put those 20 two offenders back in a room together or a dormitory 21 together to avoid type of future contact between the 84 1 two. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: If I understand your 3 earlier testimony, as well as the Commissioner's, 4 any consensual or nonconsensual sexual activity 5 between inmates is a violation that would be a 6 reportable incident; isn't that correct? 7 RICHARD BROWN: Absolutely. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: So am I correct in 9 assuming that not only do you take this information 10 about offenders, "involved in sexual relationships" 11 and put it on Image AXS, but you refer it as a 12 matter of course to the -- I guess you would make a 13 decision, according to Mr. Donahue, at Rockville as 14 to whether it should be forwarded to the State 15 Police for prosecution? 16 RICHARD BROWN: That would be determined 17 by internal affairs. If they complete an 18 investigation and make a determination that there's 19 a violation of any type of law, then that would be 20 referred on to the State Police. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: Well, if I understood 85 1 Commissioner Donahue's testimony, he said that 2 there's somebody at Rockville who makes the 3 determination, whether from an incident report or an 4 onsite investigation, that activity rises to the 5 level of criminal activity, sufficient for it to be 6 forwarded to central office, and there somebody 7 decides to forward it on to the Indiana State 8 Police. Is that the way it works? 9 RICHARD BROWN: No. Any time there is an 10 incident, it's referred to the superintendent. The 11 superintendent, in collaboration with the internal 12 affairs investigator at the facility, will make that 13 determination to send that on to central office, as 14 you had just mentioned. And then of course on to 15 the prosecutor's office or the State Police. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: So Ms. Stout as well as 17 Mr. Newlin? 18 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Jerry Newlin. The two 20 of them would get together with respect to any 21 information you're referring to of offenders 86 1 involved in sexual relationships. Every one of 2 those incidents would go to them and they would 3 determine whether it should be sent to someone at -- 4 at the State Police or at central. 5 RICHARD BROWN: Either or both. Yeah, 6 Mr. Newlin would be in contact with central office 7 internal affairs division as well. But an offender, 8 if they were written up and received a conduct 9 report for engaging in sexual activity, would not 10 necessarily warrant a, you know, investigation by 11 the State Police. If the two were involved in what 12 they considered a consensual sexual act, and of 13 course, like I say, we do not have any consensual 14 acts period, but the offenders may think that there 15 are, you know, such acts that are between the two of 16 them that they agree it is consensual. Those 17 usually are not referred on to the internal affairs 18 division at central office or on to the State Police 19 division. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: So it's your 21 understanding that while it's a violation of your 87 1 2005 sexual assault prevention policy for offenders 2 to be involved in sexual relationships -- 3 RICHARD BROWN: Yes. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: -- if they think it's 5 consensual, it may not be a crime in Indiana? 6 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: And the people who are 8 doing the triage of whether this is -- rises to the 9 level of being a crime for purposes of referral to 10 the State Police are Mr. Newlin and Ms. Stout; is 11 that correct? 12 RICHARD BROWN: That is correct. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: Directing your attention 14 to the February 1, 2007 -- your memo to 15 superintendent Julie Smith. I assume Julie Smith is 16 the same Julie Stout? 17 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 18 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you have that in 19 front of you there? 20 RICHARD BROWN: I'm sorry, February. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: February 1, 2007, it's a 88 1 one-page memorandum to you from Julie Smith 2 regarding quarterly prevention activity. 3 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, I have that. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: And you say there that 5 you made a quarterly inspection of the facility 6 today with Major Kidwell to identify areas, "that 7 may be high risk for sexual assault." As you are 8 aware, Major Kidwell identified all restrooms in the 9 dorm, dining hall, recreation building, offender 10 service building, maintenance building, and PEN 11 Products on January 17, '07. I'm not sure I 12 understand what identified -- what is this saying? 13 Does this say that Major Kidwell believes that the 14 restrooms in the dorms are particularly high risk 15 for sexual assault? 16 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, what that means, 17 anything that's listed on that, after making the 18 tour around the facility, any area that we determine 19 would be an area that is higher than, say for 20 instance, the dayroom area, which is in constant 21 visual of staff constantly. We would identify any 89 1 areas where there may be not constant staff visual. 2 And that was the areas identified, such as 3 bathrooms, closets, and what's listed there in that 4 quarterly activity. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: So I understand your 6 meaning of the second sentence here, are you just 7 referring to restrooms in the dining hall and 8 restrooms in the recreation building and restrooms 9 in the other buildings listed, or are you 10 referencing restrooms in the dorms, as well as 11 separately from restrooms anywhere in the dining 12 hall, anywhere in the recreation building, anywhere 13 in the offender service building? 14 RICHARD BROWN: No, it means specifically 15 restrooms in those particular areas. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: Then on the second 17 paragraph it indicates that you and Major Kidwell 18 identified the washer and dryer rooms in the dorms 19 and the coolers and food storage rooms in the 20 kitchen area as potential high-risk areas. Is that 21 accurate? 90 1 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, it is. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you trust Major 3 Kidwell's judgment in that regard? 4 RICHARD BROWN: One hundred percent. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: Then a few months later, 6 June 29, 2007, you and Major Kidwell and Captain 7 Edmonds had your quarterly inspections for high-risk 8 areas for sexual assault. And there in the second 9 paragraph you talk about restrooms and living areas 10 in the dorms. So there's evidently a new addition. 11 Not just focused on restrooms, but the living areas 12 in the dorms; is that right? 13 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: Bathrooms in the 15 recreation building, bathrooms in the OSB, the 16 storage area and the PEN Products. So those are 17 mostly previously identified in the earlier 18 inspection except that you've added the living areas 19 in the dorms. OSP I assume is the offender -- 20 RICHARD BROWN: Offender service building. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: Service building. 91 1 What's the PEN Products building? 2 RICHARD BROWN: It is -- the PEN Products 3 is the Prison Enterprise Network, which is a -- 4 basically a manufacturing-type setting where 5 offenders work, make mattresses, that type of thing. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: I'm just looking at 7 your, not floor plan but map of the facility. Which 8 building would it -- is the PEN involved in? 9 RICHARD BROWN: I don't have the map here 10 in front of me to -- 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: Does it have a number? 12 RICHARD BROWN: If it is, it's blackened 13 out there. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: Is it the industries 15 building? 16 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, industries building. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: That's not outside the 18 wire though? 19 RICHARD BROWN: No, it is not. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: The storage area in PEN 21 Products, how big an area is that? 92 1 RICHARD BROWN: It was an area about 12 by 2 20, but that room has completely been taken out of 3 the PEN Products building now, as a result of this. 4 It was an unused storage area and we completely took 5 the walls down. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Why did you do that? 7 RICHARD BROWN: The main reason we did it 8 is we needed to add additional space for the 9 industries. And also with the determination here 10 that that would be a high-risk area, because it was 11 an area that was blocked from view by staff. 12 STEVE MCFARLAND: That's great. What 13 actions -- well, then, come back to that. Third 14 paragraph, you say, "Today we added the following 15 areas that are potential areas for sexual assault: 16 the mechanical room in the laundry buildings and the 17 staff weight room." The staff weight room, not 18 inmate? 19 RICHARD BROWN: Right. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: "Due to it always being 21 left unsecured and no officer being assigned to the 93 1 night zone area to watch the area." Which area are 2 we talking about, the mechanical room in the laundry 3 building and the staff weight room, or just the 4 latter? 5 RICHARD BROWN: No, we were talking about 6 the mechanical room in the laundry building and the 7 staff weight room. Two separate locations. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: Are they still left 9 unsecured? 10 RICHARD BROWN: No, they are not. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: Have they been closed or 12 they are now just secured? 13 RICHARD BROWN: The staff weight room is 14 now secured at all times, and staff have to check 15 out a key out of the location -- I'm sorry, out of 16 control in order to get into that building. And the 17 actual locking mechanism was changed on the 18 mechanical room in the laundry building. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Which staff would have 20 access to the key? 21 RICHARD BROWN: Laundry staff and 94 1 maintenance staff that work in that building. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: And I assume a 3 correctional officer could get that key as well? 4 RICHARD BROWN: He could if he checked it 5 out of control, correct. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: And did you have some 7 reason to believe, other than just hypothetically, 8 that these areas needed to be added as potential 9 areas for sexual assault? 10 RICHARD BROWN: Well, the main reason in 11 the laundry department, it was an area that was 12 behind the office area of the laundry workers, so it 13 was an area that was kind of a blind spot. And once 14 we determined that they could push the latch down 15 and the door would come open, that's when we changed 16 the lock to make sure that they could not just push 17 the lock and open. As far as the staff weight room, 18 I mean it was an area that was just unsecured at all 19 times for staff access into the weight room. And a 20 determination was made that since it was off of an 21 area where it wasn't constant visual as well, it 95 1 should be secured at all times. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Did you have reason to 3 believe that sexual activity was going on in either 4 of those areas? 5 RICHARD BROWN: No, absolutely not. That 6 was a preventive measure. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: Isn't it true that that 8 would be a prime area? You note that it was left -- 9 prior to seven months ago, it was left unsecured and 10 open all night, the staff weight room, so anybody, 11 any staff, could be present with an offender in 12 either of those places, unobserved, and anybody who 13 is able to turn a handle can get in there; is that 14 correct? 15 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, that's correct. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: That's why you tried to 17 change that? 18 RICHARD BROWN: Oh, absolutely. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: But you had no idea that 20 anybody had actually done that. This was just 21 preventative, hypothetical -- 96 1 RICHARD BROWN: It was preventive. There 2 was no accusations at all. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: Are there cameras in 4 either of those facilities, the mechanical room in 5 the laundry building or the staff weight room? 6 RICHARD BROWN: No. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: And there weren't prior 8 to January 29 of 2007? 9 RICHARD BROWN: No. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: So you really don't know 11 what's gone on in there prior to putting the lock on 12 the door; is that correct? You don't have somebody 13 there 24/7? 14 RICHARD BROWN: No, there is not someone 15 there 24/7. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: And there's no visual. 17 You're just trusting that it stays locked and nobody 18 who has access to a key gets in there; isn't that 19 correct? 20 RICHARD BROWN: It's correct to a certain 21 extent. There is a partial visual from the visiting 97 1 center, but you cannot see the entire building. You 2 can see the entranceway that goes into the staff 3 weight room, but it's still an area if a staff 4 person was not watching in that direction, someone 5 could easily get in there. So, yes, that's why it 6 was secured. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: Are offenders allowed in 8 the laundry building? 9 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, they work in the 10 laundry building. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: Are they allowed in the 12 staff weight room? 13 RICHARD BROWN: No, they are not. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: And the folks who now 15 have access to the keys are the maintenance crew; is 16 that correct? 17 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, maintenance staff. 18 STEVE MCFARLAND: Maintenance staff. As 19 well as? 20 RICHARD BROWN: The laundry staff. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: Laundry staff. As well 98 1 as any correctional officer who asks for the key? 2 RICHARD BROWN: Well, they would have to 3 get approval from the shift supervisor because that 4 would be a restricted key. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: Would that be Lieutenant 6 Lawson? 7 RICHARD BROWN: It would be the shift 8 supervisor. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: And Lieutenant Lawson, 10 you're supervisor of which shift. 11 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: The night shift, 6:00 12 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: Twelve hours, 6:00 p.m. 14 to 6:00 a.m.? 15 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Correct. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: So anybody other than 17 the maintenance staff or the -- I'm sorry. 18 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Laundry. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Laundry staff, would 20 have to go through you after 6:00 p.m. to get a key 21 to the mechanical room in the laundry building or 99 1 the staff weight room? 2 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: To go into the 3 mechanical room in the laundry building, there would 4 be a supervisor go with them and there would have to 5 be a specific reason. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: I'm not talking about an 7 offender. I mean -- 8 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: A staff person would 9 have to have a supervisor with them -- 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: Really? 11 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: -- if the laundry 12 hours are closed. Then either myself or my captain 13 would go into that building with that officer. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: What's in the mechanical 15 room in the laundry room? 16 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: They have the 17 compressor and then the water pump would be in 18 there. And I know the laundry has alarms going off, 19 and at times we have had to go into that room to -- 20 a fire alarm will go off. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: But the maintenance 100 1 staff can't go in there alone? 2 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Not after hours, no. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: Not on your shift? 4 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Not on my shift. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: They can go in there 6 alone 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.? 7 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: I'm not on shift at 8 that time so I can't answer that. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: Fair enough. Do you 10 ever work any other shift? 11 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Not to be a supervisor 12 on. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: Have you ever worked -- 14 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes, I have. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: -- the day shift? 16 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: And what's your 18 understanding of whether you need to accompany 19 somebody, another staff member, into the mechanical 20 room of the laundry? 21 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Whenever maintenance 101 1 go in, they would notify the laundry staff that they 2 were in there. I don't know if the laundry staff 3 per se walked back in there with them. I can't 4 answer that question. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: And how big a room is 6 the mechanical room? 7 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Oh -- 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: Big enough for a 9 compressor, big enough for a boiler, a water heater? 10 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Right. 11 RICHARD BROWN: I would guess probably a 12 25 by 25 room. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: 25 feet by 25 feet. 14 RICHARD BROWN: Approximate. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: And are there any 16 windows on it? 17 RICHARD BROWN: No, there are not. 18 STEVE MCFARLAND: And today, if I 19 understand correctly, from -- during the day a 20 maintenance person can go into that room as long as 21 he or she has notified the shift supervisor that 102 1 he's going into the mechanical room? 2 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Not on day shift. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: Back up. If it's after 4 6:00, that maintenance person would have to be 5 accompanied by another staff member; is that 6 correct? 7 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Correct. And then the 8 only reason they would come in, if we was having 9 some kind of a mechanical problem -- 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: That would be the only 11 authorized reason? 12 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: Yeah. But I'm just 14 talking about access. I'm asking about who could 15 get in there, not why they could get in there. 16 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: After 6:00 p.m -- 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: They are going to have 18 to be with a CO? 19 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes. The shift 20 supervisor would be notified if any unauthorized 21 staff come on duty. 103 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: Come on duty. 2 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Come on the hill. If 3 a maintenance person come in, after their tour of 4 duty was complete, then either my captain or I would 5 be notified. We would be made aware if we had 6 additional staff on the hill that we couldn't 7 account for. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: And then during the day 9 inmates are allowed in the laundry building; is that 10 correct? Not the mechanical room, I'm just saying 11 the laundry building? 12 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: They have laundry 13 workers, yes. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: And are the -- how many 15 inmates can be in the laundry room at one time 16 during the day? 17 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: The laundry room 18 itself is pretty good size. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Yeah. 20 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: I don't know at this 21 time how many they have assigned. 104 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: That's unfair because 2 it's not on your shift. We will ask someone else. 3 Is there a camera in the laundry area? Not the 4 mechanical area but the laundry area? 5 RICHARD BROWN: No, there is not. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Any thought about 7 putting one there? 8 RICHARD BROWN: Yes. As a matter of fact 9 we're looking at installing cameras throughout the 10 facility. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: And that being one of 12 them, the laundry room? 13 RICHARD BROWN: Correct, yes. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: Why is that? If you 15 have, quote, absolutely no reason, evidence that 16 there's anything going on there, why would you want 17 to waste the money? 18 RICHARD BROWN: Well, there's a lot of 19 other incidents that could take place in addition to 20 any type of sexual assault, so we want to monitor 21 any type of activity within the facility. Mainly 105 1 any type of act at all. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Contraband? 3 RICHARD BROWN: Oh, absolutely. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: Physical violence, 5 assault? 6 RICHARD BROWN: Right. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: Rape? Is that -- is 8 rape something you would want to observe as well? 9 RICHARD BROWN: Well, we definitely don't 10 want any rape occurring, so, yes, the cameras would 11 be installed to watch any type of activity as I 12 stated earlier. I would also like to note for the 13 record, the area in question, the mechanical room, 14 it's also behind a secured fence so only staff have 15 access to get in that secured fenced area to the 16 mechanical room. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Can any staff escort an 18 inmate in the mechanical area? 19 RICHARD BROWN: Only a staff person that 20 was with the maintenance department would be taking 21 an offender into that area. Usually that's an area 106 1 that staff work on that particularly just 2 themselves, it's usually not with an offender in 3 that area. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: But it wouldn't be 5 against protocol or procedure for an inmate to be in 6 the weight room -- the mechanical room with an 7 authorized mechanical staff? 8 RICHARD BROWN: That would be acceptable 9 for them to be there. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. We didn't find 11 your quarterly report for fall of 2007. Do you have 12 that with you? 13 RICHARD BROWN: No, I do not. There was 14 not a specific quarterly walk-around specific for 15 that particular quarter. What had taken place 16 during that quarter was as we were walking around, 17 the executive staff basically considered that for 18 the quarter. No, I do not have that. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: So was June 29 last year 20 the last time you did a walk-around looking for 21 sexual assault high-risk areas? 107 1 RICHARD BROWN: No, it was not. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: When was the next time? 3 RICHARD BROWN: December 31st, 2007. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: Can you just tell me, I 5 can't put my hands on it. Can you just tell me what 6 areas were identified as at risk for sexual assault? 7 RICHARD BROWN: Okay. I will read it to 8 you. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: Did you say December 31? 10 RICHARD BROWN: December 31st, 2007. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: All right. According to 12 the inspection on December 28, "We did not identify 13 any new areas that have not already been identified. 14 Most allegations from offenders that claim to have 15 been inappropriately touched occurred in the dorm 16 rooms, bathrooms or shower areas." Do you have -- 17 do you think that all of the allegations you've just 18 described there are false? 19 RICHARD BROWN: All of them, no. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: Some might be but some 21 might be accurate? 108 1 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: So the -- given your 3 June 29 walk through, the living areas of the dorms, 4 not just the bathrooms, were also high risk areas; 5 is that correct? 6 RICHARD BROWN: There was areas listed as 7 potential for high-risk areas. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: Yeah, potential. And 9 what was done about any of these areas last year 10 that were identified as potential high-risk areas? 11 RICHARD BROWN: Numerous doors have now 12 been secured in different locations. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: By secured, you mean 14 they put a lock on them? 15 RICHARD BROWN: Ensuring that they are 16 secure, that there is no time a staff member -- say 17 they go into a closet to get out chemicals or 18 cleaning supplies for the dormitory, they must 19 secure that door behind them immediately upon 20 exiting the door, that way no offender has access to 21 any of the closets or storage areas. We have also 109 1 ensured that unit team staff as well as the 2 correctional officers are making routine 3 walk-throughs, through the dormitories, through the 4 recreation building, through different locations 5 within the facility. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Anything else? 7 RICHARD BROWN: That's the majority of 8 what we're doing. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: Whether it's not the 10 majority, is there anything else that you've done 11 since identifying these high-risk areas for sexual 12 assault? 13 RICHARD BROWN: We brought that to the 14 attention of all staff, that these are areas that 15 are crucial, these are areas you need to pay 16 particular attention to, and make sure nothing is 17 going on in these areas. 18 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. So after 19 identifying these areas in February last year and 20 June of last year and December 31, or December 28, 21 minutes dated December 31, the action that Rockville 110 1 took to prevent these from actually going from 2 potential to actual sexual assault sites consisted 3 of putting a lock on the mechanical room in the 4 laundry building? 5 RICHARD BROWN: Changing the lock, yes. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Changing the lock. 7 Calling the attention of these areas to the 8 attention of all of the staff. Making sure that 9 staff closes the closet doors and make sure they are 10 locked after they open them. Anything else? 11 RICHARD BROWN: During training every 12 staff person goes through annual in-service 13 training, and I speak to every in-service class that 14 we have. And issues such as this is discussed 15 during the in-service training, which is an annual 16 40-hour in-service training. And these types of 17 things are discussed with staff. So I think the 18 emphasis needs to be placed there that all staff are 19 aware of all these areas and to be potentially 20 watching out at all times. Yeah, but that is 21 basically what we've done to -- 111 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: I don't understand that. 2 Why would you waste money and effort locking the 3 facility, consider putting in cameras, or doing 4 anything else in a facility where 100 percent of the 5 surveyed inmates say they have never been forced to 6 do anything in a sexual way? 7 RICHARD BROWN: Well, I believe in any 8 facility if you have very low sexual activity 9 amongst the offenders it keeps other problems down. 10 If you have problems where you have sexual activity 11 running rampant, that creates a lot of other 12 potential for assaults, for extortion, that type of 13 activity. By installing the cameras and bringing 14 everything to staff's attention, I think it's a 15 preventative measure that we're taking to make sure 16 this type of thing doesn't happen. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Is it fair to say that 18 you don't believe the results of the survey that 19 indicate that there is no unwanted sexual activity 20 going on in your facility? 21 RICHARD BROWN: That was completed by the 112 1 offenders. Of the ones that reported, they 2 indicated 100 percent. I would say that the 3 offenders that reported, I do believe that from the 4 ones that reported. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you think it's 6 underreporting activity? 7 RICHARD BROWN: I don't necessarily think 8 it's underreporting. I think that the offenders are 9 made very, very well aware of what to do if they are 10 involved in any type of activity that they feel 11 uncomfortable in. They know to come to staff, they 12 know to write, they know to use the TIPS line, which 13 the Commissioner alluded to at the grievance 14 process. There are numerous, numerous avenues for 15 an offender to report any type of activity -- 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: But there's nothing to 17 report. Is that your testimony? 18 RICHARD BROWN: My testimony is that if 19 they want to report and have something to report, 20 they have that avenue. If they are not reporting, 21 then I guess that it is zero at this time. But like 113 1 I said, if they want to report any type of activity, 2 they have that opportunity. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: But you're taking these 4 preventative measures and you're identifying 5 predators that need to be placed in ad seg and 6 you're asking for expansion of ad seg because you 7 have so many people lined up to be put in there but 8 no activity is happening. You don't believe there's 9 any nonconsensual sexual activity happening in 10 Rockville but you're making all these quarterly 11 walk-throughs and talking about installing cameras 12 just so that other nonsexual activity can be 13 prevented. Am I understanding your sworn testimony? 14 RICHARD BROWN: No, I do believe that 15 there could be some activity going on. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: There could be or there 17 is? 18 RICHARD BROWN: There probably is. If 19 it's reported to us, then it will be investigated. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: I'm not asking that. I 21 have every reason to believe that if it's reported 114 1 you have the best of good faith to want to catch it. 2 But I'm asking if you, as the person in charge of 3 operations at the facility which the largest 4 national survey of inmates in the history of this 5 country has identified as having the highest 6 incidence, i.e. the worst facility in the country 7 with respect to -- women's facility, with respect to 8 both inmate- and staff-on-inmate sexual activity, 9 I'm asking you if you think it is happening. Not 10 whether it could happen, is it happening at 11 Rockville? 12 RICHARD BROWN: No, it is not happening at 13 Rockville. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: I have no other 15 questions at this time. 16 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Mr. Brown, I want to 17 go back to the concept of girlfriend. Is this a 18 part of the culture in Rockville, the expectation 19 that women will pair off together in relationships 20 or families, and would an inexperienced, 21 unsuspecting new inmate understand that that is -- 115 1 that is the lifestyle there? Help me understand 2 what you mean by girlfriend and the extent of those 3 relationships. Are they -- are they emotional 4 attachments as in friendships, do they extend to 5 sexual relationships? Help me. 6 RICHARD BROWN: Okay. There are a 7 multitude of different types of relationships. 8 Yeah, some of them view it as a family situation 9 with a mother, aunt, nieces, that type of thing. 10 Others do term themselves as girlfriends. And that 11 may be a friend that they consider a girlfriend, not 12 any type of sexual activity but they still consider 13 a girlfriend. And, you know, if they determine that 14 they want to physically be involved with someone, 15 they may possibly term that as girlfriend. We as 16 staff do not necessarily accept that term and try to 17 encourage offenders not to get involved in any type 18 of that activity. When they go through their 19 orientation process, it's discussed with them not to 20 get involved with any type of relationship at all. 21 They are told not to give their commissary away, do 116 1 not accept commissary from anyone, just due to the 2 fact that that type of thing can happen. It's 3 discussed with them to try to avoid any type of 4 girlfriend situation as they term it. 5 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: And what is the 6 culture like at Rockville from a sexual standpoint? 7 Is there a lot of discussion about sex, do people 8 seem to be preoccupied with it? Are there -- are 9 there things that you might see that are 10 stimulating? How does that play out in terms of the 11 environment? 12 RICHARD BROWN: There's a lot of talk 13 about the prevention of it. Like I say, that's done 14 during orientation, it's done also during -- each 15 unit team manager and counselor case manager, an 16 officer from the dorm, have reviews with offenders 17 called RAP reviews, which is reentry accountability 18 plan. And that's a plan to help them make it 19 through their incarceration, get involved in 20 programs, education, that type of thing at the 21 facility for successful reentry back into the 117 1 community. And during those RAP reviews with the 2 offenders, the sexual assault prevention is 3 discussed with each particular offender too. So 4 there is much talk about it. Pamphlets are given 5 out to all staff, to all offenders. We have posters 6 throughout the facility in strategic locations, such 7 as the dormitories, recreation building, visitation 8 room, dining hall, offender service building. So, 9 yeah, it's talked about often. 10 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: As the PREA 11 coordinator, are you satisfied with the amount of 12 training that staff receive regarding sexual 13 assault? 14 RICHARD BROWN: I would honestly like to 15 see more training for myself as the coordinator. 16 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: What's the mandatory 17 requirement as it stands now? 18 RICHARD BROWN: So far we have had a 19 one-day training session for all the coordinators 20 within the facilities, and that was held in May of 21 '07. 118 1 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Was that the large 2 conference? 3 RICHARD BROWN: No, that was separate. 4 That was a separate training session. This one was 5 specific to all the coordinators. 6 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: We have been talking 7 about relationships and how key they are to life in 8 prison. Those relationships with staff that inmates 9 have, do you have the breakdown, the gender 10 breakdown of staff, male to female? Do you have 11 that information? 12 RICHARD BROWN: I'm sorry, I do not. 13 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Does someone with you 14 have that information? 15 RICHARD BROWN: I don't know if 16 Superintendent Stout has that information with her 17 or not. But I do not have it. 18 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: If you have not 19 brought it, we would want that information. 20 RICHARD BROWN: We can get that 21 information for you easy enough. 119 1 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Is there any, that you 2 have been able to glean or in your discussions, is 3 there any difference between the relationships that 4 male officers might have to female inmates in your 5 prison? Are there discussions about that or is 6 there something that you can tell us about those 7 relationships and how that plays out in an 8 institution where there are women inmates? 9 RICHARD BROWN: Well, basically, yes, all 10 staff when they go through the in-service training 11 in their new employee orientation, those types of 12 issues are discussed about staying professional at 13 all times. Our information in terms of conduct 14 policy is taught during the new employee orientation 15 and the annual in-service. And what that discusses 16 is any type of inappropriate relationships. It's 17 not specific to male officers, it's specific to all 18 correctional staff coming into the facility to avoid 19 any type of activity. 20 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Are inmates asked to 21 identify their sexual orientation when they come 120 1 into the prison? 2 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, they are. 3 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Why do you do that? 4 RICHARD BROWN: That's an assessment tool 5 that the classification intake staff use, which 6 helps them make a determination where -- if an 7 offender could be a potential victim or potential 8 predator. 9 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: I see. And the 10 Commissioner had mentioned earlier that you place 11 great emphasis on identifying potential vulnerable 12 inmates as well as predators. What do you see as -- 13 how do you see vulnerable inmates, how would you 14 describe a vulnerable female inmate? 15 RICHARD BROWN: A vulnerable offender 16 would be someone that is new to the system coming 17 in. Someone that's young. Someone that's petite, 18 maybe has had problems prior to incarceration of 19 being a victim. Things like that. 20 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Do you have 21 homosexuals on your staff? 121 1 RICHARD BROWN: I do not know if we do or 2 not. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: So you ask inmates their 4 sexual orientation but you don't ask staff? 5 RICHARD BROWN: No, we do not ask staff. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: But your testimony is 7 that you do ask inmates their sexual orientation at 8 orientation? 9 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: And is that noted in 11 their record? 12 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, it is. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you also ask about 14 past sexual assault or abuse? 15 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, it's on the 16 assessment tool that's used by the classification 17 staff. 18 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Thank you. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: What's your 20 understanding, Mr. Brown, as to whether your medical 21 staff, Doctor Raham, or nurse, Ms. Bennett, do they 122 1 have an obligation to disclose or report if an 2 inmate confides in them that they have been sexually 3 active within the prison? 4 RICHARD BROWN: They do not have that 5 obligation to us that I'm aware of. I know that I 6 have not been contacted by them of anything like 7 that where two offenders were involved in sexual 8 activity and then they contacted myself. As far as 9 honestly knowing what the protocol is on that, I 10 really can't answer that. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: Who is most 12 knowledgeable about what the legal or disciplinary 13 expectations or duties are of medical staff? 14 RICHARD BROWN: Doctor Raham or 15 Ms. Bennett. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: But who do they answer 17 to? Who can hold them accountable to that policy? 18 If you don't know, who does? 19 RICHARD BROWN: There is a regional 20 contract compliance monitor that monitors that. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: Is that a person or a 123 1 thing? 2 RICHARD BROWN: That's a person. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: And who is the regional 4 compliance monitor? 5 RICHARD BROWN: His name is Andy Dunnigan. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Is he onsite? 7 RICHARD BROWN: He's not onsite all the 8 time. He has several facilities within a region and 9 then he makes site visits to the particular 10 facilities. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: And to your knowledge is 12 there a written policy about confidentiality with 13 medical staff by inmates? 14 RICHARD BROWN: I do not know what that 15 states. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: So needless to say you 17 wouldn't be able to enforce it if you don't know it? 18 RICHARD BROWN: Correct. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you know what 20 Indiana's criminal code requires, if any, in the way 21 of reporting of alleged sexual assault or activity 124 1 in a prison? 2 RICHARD BROWN: I don't know what it 3 states specifically. 4 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Do consensual 5 relationships exist and you don't know about them 6 because you can't see them, and would there be a 7 code of silence among other inmates in not outing 8 someone? 9 RICHARD BROWN: I'm sure that could 10 happen, yes. I'm sure that does happen. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: Let me make sure I 12 understand what your sworn testimony is. You're 13 sure about what happens. Can you just explain your 14 last answer? 15 RICHARD BROWN: What I was asking -- what 16 I answered to was that I am sure that there are 17 probably offenders that are involved in what they 18 consider a consensual relationship. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: And that they don't feel 20 at liberty to disclose it to the world; is that 21 correct? 125 1 RICHARD BROWN: That is correct. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: And why wouldn't they 3 tell anybody? 4 RICHARD BROWN: Because they would receive 5 a conduct report for violation of the adult 6 disciplinary policy. 7 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: And others would not 8 necessarily out them either, right? I mean there 9 may be other inmates who are aware that people are 10 engaged in these relationships but wouldn't 11 necessarily come to you or anybody else and report 12 that? 13 RICHARD BROWN: Oh, that's correct. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: So, Mr. Brown, do you 15 believe that the facility in which you're head of 16 operations, do you believe that there is sexual 17 activity that would violate the sexual assault 18 prevention policy going on today between inmates? 19 RICHARD BROWN: The sexual assault policy, 20 I would say no. The actual adult disciplinary 21 policy, I would say yes. 126 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: Your understanding of 2 the sexual assault prevention policy effective 3 July 1, 2005 permits sexual activity between inmates 4 if it's -- they consider it consensual. I thought 5 you said the opposite. 6 RICHARD BROWN: No, it does not. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: Then how can that 8 activity violate -- not violate that SAP policy but 9 could violate the -- 10 RICHARD BROWN: I'm sorry, the adult 11 disciplinary policy? 12 STEVE MCFARLAND: The adult disciplinary 13 policy. 14 RICHARD BROWN: The adult disciplinary 15 policy, of course it has a list of violations if an 16 offender violates that particular policy -- that 17 particular rule, then they would receive a conduct 18 report. And one of -- one of the rules in that is 19 engaging in any type of sexual activity or making 20 sexual gestures towards another offender. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: So the SAP policy 127 1 permits sexual activity between inmates at your 2 institution; is that your testimony? 3 RICHARD BROWN: No, it does not. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: Maybe I'm just slow this 5 morning, I'm sorry. I thought you just said that 6 sexual activity could happen, indeed is happening, 7 but it would only violate the adult disciplinary 8 policy but not the sexual assault prevention policy 9 that the Commissioner was proudly testifying about 10 earlier this morning. 11 RICHARD BROWN: I'm sorry, I misunderstood 12 your question. Yes, it would violate that because 13 there is zero tolerance for any type of activity. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: So it would violate both 15 of the policies? 16 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, it would. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: And you believe that's 18 happening today at Rockville, don't you? 19 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, because we have 20 offenders that receive conduct reports for such. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: And you're identifying 128 1 sexual predators that you need to put in ad seg if 2 you had more beds; isn't that correct? 3 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, it is. But we don't 4 have a line of them, but there are some of them that 5 are identified -- 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: As far as the survey of 7 January 2008, you think that the random number of 8 folks who were surveyed, all of them answered 9 accurately and honestly, there was no 10 underreporting, but they just asked the wrong 11 inmates and that somewhere there are sexual 12 predators who belong in your ad seg program -- 13 facility and who are today violating the SAP policy 14 and the adult disciplinary policy; is that your 15 testimony? 16 RICHARD BROWN: What I would say on my 17 testimony to that is, I don't know what offenders 18 were surveyed. I would hope that they would provide 19 accurate information. But, yes, there are offenders 20 there that are violating the particular policy 21 because of engaging in the acts they consider 129 1 consensual. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: So you don't believe 3 that your January 2008 policy -- survey is an 4 accurate representation of the entire population of 5 Rockville? 6 RICHARD BROWN: No, it's an accurate 7 survey of the offenders that took it -- 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: And you don't know how 9 many even were responding, do you? 10 RICHARD BROWN: I'm not sure. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: We will ask the chief of 12 staff about that. 13 RICHARD BROWN: Okay. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: Why don't we take a 15 15-minute break. And I have some more questions for 16 Lieutenant Lawson. 17 (Break taken at 11:21 a.m.) 18 (Resumed at 11:32 a.m.) 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: All right. Lieutenant 20 Lawson, in your experience, what's it been, eight 21 years at Rockville? 130 1 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: There are blind spots 3 there; is that correct? 4 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes, there is. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: All right. And do 6 the -- do romantic relationships develop among the 7 inmates at Rockville? 8 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes, they do. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. And do the -- do 10 those relationships, romantic relationships, go 11 beyond holding hands? 12 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: We have documentation 13 to prove that they have. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: Yeah. And indeed that's 15 why you have assessment tools to determine who are 16 sexual predators; is that right? 17 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Correct. But I'm not 18 familiar with the assessment tools. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Yeah, I'm not going to 20 ask you about the tool. Is intimate sexual activity 21 between inmates a reportable incident? 131 1 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes, it is. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. And what if they 3 say, hold it, this is perfectly consensual, I really 4 like her, she is my girlfriend and what we do is our 5 own business. Is that still a reportable incident? 6 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Rockville Correctional 7 Facility has zero tolerance for any kind of sexual 8 contact between offenders or staff and offenders. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: What if the inmate says, 10 I really like Lieutenant Jones and what we do in the 11 mechanical room and laundry room in the afternoon is 12 our own business. 13 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: No, it's not. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: Does that violate PREA 15 as you've been trained? 16 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes, it does. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. Would you say 18 that you and your subordinates on the night shift 19 look away? Just as Commissioner Donahue said, I see 20 nothing, hear nothing, know nothing -- is that the 21 response of correctional officers at Rockville about 132 1 intimate sexual activity going on between inmates or 2 between staff and inmates? 3 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: No. Fellow staff will 4 not tolerate it because that puts their safety in 5 jeopardy. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Can you flesh that out a 7 little bit? Why would it jeopardize another staff 8 member? 9 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: If a staff member is 10 having sexual relations or even bringing in candy to 11 an offender, if there would be an incident where his 12 or her girlfriend would attack that staff member, 13 you would hesitate to decide who your fellow staff 14 member -- whose side they are going to be on. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: And you would wonder 16 what other rules of the facility they would be 17 willing to break? 18 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Correct. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: For that relationship, 20 for the sake of that relationship? 21 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Correct. 133 1 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Lieutenant Lawson, we 2 talked earlier about the guidelines and promoting 3 healthy relationships for inmates as they reenter 4 society. 5 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes. 6 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: And how important that 7 is. I want to go back again to those relationships 8 within the institution, and how do you determine 9 which relationships are healthy. For example, if we 10 see, as Mr. Brown described, a vulnerable inmate, 11 young, petite, new, certainly not steeped in the 12 ways of the society within the prison, how do you 13 determine if you see that particular young, 14 vulnerable inmate with someone who is seasoned, has 15 been there for some time, may be a bully but not to 16 the extent that they are noted infractions, but your 17 sense in dealing with that individual is that they 18 are aggressive, how do you determine that that isn't 19 a relationship that may also have attached to it the 20 sexual component and that it may not be one that is 21 willing? 134 1 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: I myself have 2 personally pulled offenders aside when I have seen 3 the vulnerable offenders with more aggressive 4 offenders and asked them, do you need to talk with 5 anyone, are you comfortable sitting there at the 6 table with that person, are you being strong-armed? 7 And I advise my staff if they see, for lack of 8 better words, the weak offenders being monitored by 9 the strong offenders, whether it be to take their 10 commissary, we watch that relationship close to be 11 sure that offender, the weak offender, is protected. 12 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Has it been your 13 experience that the -- the weak offender would 14 necessarily say to you, yes, Lieutenant Lawson, I am 15 being pressured, I'm frightened? Has that been your 16 experience, I do need help? 17 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: At that time they did 18 not say they needed help. But that gave them an 19 avenue knowing that staff was there if they needed 20 their support, that they could go to staff. And 21 when I talk to them I say, you can go to the 135 1 chaplain, anyone that you feel comfortable with. If 2 the need arises that you need to speak with them, 3 we're always available. 4 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Do you have any kind 5 of support group meetings or meetings in general, 6 peer education programs, that allow inmates to 7 willingly discuss these type of subjects so they can 8 deal necessarily with life in the institution? 9 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: If they do have those, 10 I'm not familiar with them, so I can't answer on 11 that. 12 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Is there anyone along 13 with you on the team that can probably tell us about 14 those specific programs, and the opportunity to use 15 those programs? 16 RICHARD BROWN: The unit manager. 17 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Would be able to 18 discuss that. Thank you. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Mr. Brown, forgive me if 20 this was already asked, but what's the gender 21 breakdown of the -- of your staff? 136 1 RICHARD BROWN: Yes, I have that. 2 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: They got it for us 3 now. 4 RICHARD BROWN: It's 126 males and 169 5 females. That's the total staff breakdown. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: And among security 7 staff, what's the breakdown? 8 RICHARD BROWN: One hundred males and 94 9 females. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you have males on the 11 maintenance crew? 12 RICHARD BROWN: Yes. 13 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Are there restrictions 14 for male officers in terms of working with inmates? 15 Are there any specific restrictions in terms of 16 their activity or whether they are allowed to search 17 them or things of that nature? How does that pan 18 out? 19 RICHARD BROWN: Yeah, they are not allowed 20 to like go into the shower area. 21 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Not allowed in the 137 1 shower areas? 2 RICHARD BROWN: Right. If I may, I would 3 like to have Lieutenant Lawson assist me. Since she 4 supervises staff, she would be able to tell us 5 specifically on those. 6 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: When the male staff 7 are supervising the dorm, they don't always announce 8 themselves they are going into the shower area. If 9 they have reason to believe that some illicit act or 10 strongarming, whether it be sexual or hitting 11 someone, trading commissary, they go in to catch the 12 act itself. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: And you leave it up to 14 their discretion whether they need to do that? 15 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Yes, I do. 16 STEVE MCFARLAND: It's possible for 17 inmates -- for officers under the guise of, well, I 18 suspected some hanky panky was going on in the 19 shower for a male officer to get his kicks out of 20 watching inmates shower, for voyeuristic purposes? 21 Would like to believe that that wouldn't happen, but 138 1 it is possible? 2 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: It is possible, yes. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: One last question. One 4 of the overheads -- well, let me ask, Lieutenant. 5 Can a male staff member pat down or frisk or do a 6 strip search on a female inmate at Rockville? 7 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Absolutely not a strip 8 search, unless it is an emergency need. And to my 9 knowledge that has never happened at Rockville. 10 That would be in cases of riot or something where it 11 had to be immediately done. In training, they do 12 have cross-gender search training and same search -- 13 same-sex search. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: So if they are being 15 trained, I take it the answer to my question is, 16 yes, they can do pat-downs, they can do frisks of 17 women inmates, they being male correctional 18 officers, they just can't do a strip search unless 19 it's an emergency. 20 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Correct. But their 21 frisk search is not as in depth as mine would be as 139 1 a female. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Well, can we be specific 3 about how -- do you expect your male officers in a 4 pat-down to touch the genitalia of a female inmate? 5 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Absolutely not. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Can't contraband or, you 7 know, knife, razor blade, whatever, be placed in 8 certain orifices? 9 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: If that happens, then 10 that staff will either notify a supervisor, if a 11 female other staff member is not immediately 12 available, and that female will do the other search. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: But if that happens, I 14 mean you're not going to know. If you can't do a 15 strip search and you can't feel the female inmate's 16 breasts or other genital area -- by the way, are we 17 talking about the buttocks, is that off-limits for a 18 male correctional officer? 19 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: They can go across, 20 right below the lower back. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: I see. But not in the 140 1 rectal area. 2 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: Absolutely not. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: Unless it's an 4 emergency. 5 ROSE MARIE LAWSON: And at that time it 6 would be when there is absolutely no female staff 7 available. And that would be under the direction 8 supervision of the supervisor. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: Right. 10 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Mr. Brown, how long 11 did you say you've been there at Rockville? 12 RICHARD BROWN: Since September of '06. 13 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: So not a very long 14 time. I'll reserve this question for someone else. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: Thank you both. I 16 should ask, do you have any answers that you want to 17 clarify? Any additional comments you want to offer 18 to the Panel? 19 RICHARD BROWN: The only thing I would 20 like to add is that we are adamant about the zero 21 tolerance of any type of sexual activity at 141 1 Rockville. We take a very proactive approach to 2 ensure that staff are made aware that we will not 3 tolerate any type of activity, whether it be between 4 offender and offender or staff and offender, and 5 we're very adamant to ensure that the offenders are 6 made aware of that and that they know the reporting 7 routes, different routes to take, if they have any 8 type of issue, because we will not tolerate any type 9 of activity, period. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: And let me just say that 11 I am impressed with policy, the procedures, the 12 training. I meant sincerely what I said to the 13 Commissioner earlier. This Commissioner jumped all 14 over this issue and changed things right and left. 15 I'm genuinely impressed. It's a refreshing change 16 from other unnamed systems. And I have no reason to 17 believe that there is a single staff member who 18 isn't committed to or doesn't at least understand 19 that his or her job is on the line if they are 20 looking the other way. I don't think there are any 21 Sergeant Schultzes at Rockville. I mean that 142 1 sincerely. I think there may be massive denial, 2 states of denial, just my personal opinion, given 3 some testimony. But I'm not in any way impugning 4 the good will and good intentions of your staff. 5 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: And I agree. I'm 6 particularly impressed with those walk-throughs, 7 those checks in the hidden places. It's encouraging 8 to hear you say you are engaging in those kind of 9 practices. So I agree with the Chairman. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: Could we now -- thank 11 you very much. 12 RICHARD BROWN: Thank you. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: May we hear now from 14 physician Doctor Vance Raham and Nurse Cheryl 15 Bennett, please? Good morning. 16 CHERYL BENNETT: Morning. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Thank you for being with 18 us. Would you please raise your right hand? Do you 19 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are 20 about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and 21 nothing but the truth, so help you God? 143 1 WITNESSES: I do. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Thank you. Would you 3 please state, Ms. Bennett, your full name and what 4 your responsibilities and title? 5 CHERYL BENNETT: My name is Cheryl 6 Bennett. I'm the health service administrator at 7 Rockville Correctional Facility. I'm a nurse with 8 over 30 years of experience. I've been in the Peace 9 Corps, served in Latin America, I spent six years in 10 the Army Nurse Corps, and 17 years in Department of 11 Veterans Affairs before I came into corrections. 12 STEVE MCFARLAND: So when did you come 13 into corrections? 14 CHERYL BENNETT: I started in corrections 15 around year 2000, but I took a break for two years 16 and then I came back. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: How many -- since when 18 have you been at Rockville? 19 CHERYL BENNETT: I've been at Rockville 20 since January. Prior to that I was at Pendleton 21 Juvenile Correctional Facility in Indiana. 144 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: January of '07? 2 CHERYL BENNETT: January '08. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: You've been there less 4 than two months? 5 CHERYL BENNETT: Yes. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: So do you have any 7 personal knowledge of procedures and activities at 8 Rockville prior to 60 days ago or less? 9 CHERYL BENNETT: Any procedures or 10 policies? 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: Sorry, unfair question. 12 Let me break it down. Are you familiar with 13 anything that the nurses on staff at Rockville in 14 2006 or 2007 did or didn't do with respect to sexual 15 assault? 16 CHERYL BENNETT: As far as sexual assault, 17 well, the policy was still the same in 2006, 2007 no 18 matter what facility I would have been at at that 19 time. Because we work for correctional medical 20 services, the policies were in place in 2005 when 21 CMS got the contract for Indiana Department of 145 1 Corrections. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: But you're not able to 3 tell us about what actually happened in 2006 or 4 2007; is that correct? 5 CHERYL BENNETT: Absolutely not. That's 6 correct, I'm not. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: And Doctor Raham, how do 8 I pronounce your last name? 9 VANCE RAHAM: Raham. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: Raham, sorry. 11 VANCE RAHAM: My name is Doctor Vance 12 Raham. I'm a board-certified gynecologist and a 13 fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and 14 Gynecology. I was in private practice for 15 approximately ten years and became medical director 16 at Rockville Correctional Facility August 1st, 2007. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: So similarly, Doctor 18 Raham, you don't know anything personally about what 19 may have happened or not happened with respect to 20 sexual assault or the treatment of victims or 21 offenders -- victims or predators prior to August of 146 1 last year? 2 VANCE RAHAM: That's correct. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: Who are your 4 predecessors? 5 VANCE RAHAM: Doctor Smith was the 6 physician that was there prior to myself. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you remember his 8 first name? 9 VANCE RAHAM: I met him briefly at one 10 point in time. I don't know his first name. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: So needless to say you 12 didn't talk -- so you don't even have hearsay 13 evidence as to the way things operated before 14 August 1st last year? 15 VANCE RAHAM: Through physicians though, 16 through the prior health care administrator that was 17 there before Ms. Bennett, yes. 18 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. Who was your 19 predecessor, Ms. Bennett? 20 CHERYL BENNETT: Carolyn Smeltzer. 21 S-M-E-L-T-Z-E-R. 147 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: And how long was she 2 there at Rockville? 3 CHERYL BENNETT: A little bit over a year. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: So maybe January of last 5 year, '07? 6 CHERYL BENNETT: Probably January of '07. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you know who was 8 there before her? 9 CHERYL BENNETT: Curt Hannaker, and I'm 10 not sure how he spells his last name. 11 STEVE MCFARLAND: Curt Hannaker. 12 CHERYL BENNETT: Hannaker. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: And do you know how long 14 I guess Mr. Hannaker -- 15 CHERYL BENNETT: I don't know how long he 16 was there before Carolyn. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: And Doctor Raham, you 18 said that you had some contact with Carolyn 19 Smeltzer? 20 VANCE RAHAM: Yes. For approximately the 21 first six months I worked at the Rockville facility, 148 1 she was the health care administrator there. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: And do you know what -- 3 do either of you know what Ms. Smeltzer's 4 professional qualifications are? 5 CHERYL BENNETT: She is also a nurse. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: And Doctor Raham, as 7 health care administrator, would Ms. Smeltzer have 8 been your superior so to speak? 9 VANCE RAHAM: Technically it's more of a 10 team approach between the director of nursing, the 11 health care administrator, and the medical director. 12 STEVE MCFARLAND: Ms. Bennett, in your six 13 to eight weeks at Rockville, do you have an opinion 14 as to whether the policy, sexual assault prevention 15 policy, is being enforced at Rockville? 16 CHERYL BENNETT: From a medical 17 standpoint? 18 STEVE MCFARLAND: Yeah. 19 CHERYL BENNETT: Absolutely. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. So is -- because 21 you weren't there, I'm just asking, do you have any 149 1 reason -- do you think that the policy is a good 2 description of what actually has been happening on 3 the ground at Rockville, with respect to nurse 4 activity? 5 CHERYL BENNETT: Do I think the policy -- 6 has it been happening even before I arrived there? 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: Is it an accurate 8 description of what actually is happening, yeah, was 9 happening in 2007? 10 CHERYL BENNETT: I believe so. And the 11 reason why I believe so is because when I first came 12 in there, I always have a staff meeting, and that's 13 one of the policies we discuss is, you know, what do 14 you do in the case of a reported sexual assault or a 15 suspected sexual assault. And all of the nurses, 16 because I hold two separate meetings to get all 17 shifts combined, they were very much aware of the 18 policy. They told me that as far back as they can 19 remember, and I have one nurse that's been there at 20 Rockville about 20 years, within at least the last 21 five years they could not report of any offender 150 1 coming to them or any offender reporting saying they 2 fell out of bed or something that they had some sort 3 of injuries that didn't quite go with the story they 4 were giving. They had not had that. So I believe 5 the policy is enforced with the medical profession, 6 yes. 7 STEVE MCFARLAND: What's your 8 understanding of what you and your other nurses are 9 supposed to do when an inmate communicates that they 10 have been sexually assaulted or other -- some other 11 violation of the SAP policy has occurred? Walk us 12 through what you're supposed to do. 13 CHERYL BENNETT: The first thing of course 14 is if there is any injuries, to treat. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: Sure. 16 CHERYL BENNETT: To triage. And so if 17 it's a severe injury, of course we would also bring 18 Doctor Raham or a nurse practitioner in to call, 19 also to see the patient. But after that, then it's 20 up to the director of nurses, or myself as the 21 health service administrator, to also report that to 151 1 custody. Even if it's on an off-shift or weekend, 2 they would call me and I would call either Ms. Stout 3 or Mr. Brown. 4 STEVE MCFARLAND: Go on. Then what 5 happens? Do you have any involvement with a rape 6 kit? 7 CHERYL BENNETT: We do not do a rape kit. 8 If it's a recent sexual assault, then we would 9 immediately have them transported to a local 10 hospital and there the rape kit and collection of 11 evidence would take place. 12 STEVE MCFARLAND: How old does the 13 incident have to be before you wouldn't transfer 14 them to an E.R.? 15 CHERYL BENNETT: Based on the history, if 16 she says I was just sexually assaulted, say within 17 four hours or so, then we would immediately 18 transport. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Is there a bright line, 20 24 hours, 48 hours? 21 CHERYL BENNETT: Forty-eight hours. 152 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: Forty-eight hours. 2 That's your understanding? 3 CHERYL BENNETT: That's my understanding. 4 VANCE RAHAM: That's the policy. 5 CHERYL BENNETT: That's the policy. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you have -- all 7 right. Go on. Let's say it's within 48 hours of 8 the alleged incident. What do you do besides treat 9 any injuries and arrange for them to be transported 10 to the E.R.? Do you do anything else? 11 CHERYL BENNETT: I would also get in touch 12 with our psychologist. We have a full-time 13 psychologist on staff. 14 STEVE MCFARLAND: What's his or her name? 15 CHERYL BENNETT: Well, we had Doctor 16 Daniel Traheo, but we just recently hired Doctor 17 Pamela Guthry. So she'll be taking his place. And 18 we would contact the psychologist to provide mental 19 health counseling and start that process. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: Great. Anything else 21 that you would be expected to do, your staff? 153 1 CHERYL BENNETT: Support the victim. Give 2 them support. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you have anything to 4 do with the alleged perpetrator? 5 CHERYL BENNETT: If we know who the 6 perpetrator is, I will also report that information 7 to custody staff. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: Do you have -- is it 9 your understanding -- what is your understanding of 10 whether you have to keep confidential anything that 11 the inmate, alleged victim, tells you while you are 12 treating them? Do you have to -- do you have to 13 report, is it optional? 14 CHERYL BENNETT: No, it's not optional. 15 If she says she was allegedly sexually assaulted or 16 victimized in any way, we have to report that. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: In those instances are 18 you expected to take photographs? 19 CHERYL BENNETT: We don't take 20 photographs. But generally -- in other facilities 21 I've been in, the custody staff always takes 154 1 photographs. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Have you had in your six 3 or eight weeks there at Rockville an incident in 4 which you've had to go through this process? 5 CHERYL BENNETT: No. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: All right. How about 7 any of the subordinate nurses under your care, have 8 they, to your knowledge, had occasion to go through 9 this process you just described? 10 CHERYL BENNETT: Even the one that's been 11 there 20 years, no, not the total process, no. 12 STEVE MCFARLAND: You think that, 13 Ms. Bennett, that sexual assault occurs at 14 Rockville? 15 CHERYL BENNETT: I think sexual assault 16 occurs anywhere, not just at Rockville. But since 17 we're talking about Rockville, I'm sure it can 18 happen. But it has not been reported to me since 19 I've been there. And in the times I've been with 20 the Department of Corrections, working for CMS, I've 21 not heard of sexual assault taking place at 155 1 Rockville. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: And you haven't heard of 3 that since when? 4 CHERYL BENNETT: Since 2006. I started 5 with corrections not in Indiana but in Kentucky. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: In 2000. 7 CHERYL BENNETT: Since 2006 I've not heard 8 of sexual assault or victimization taking place at 9 Rockville. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: And in that last answer, 11 are you -- what are you including in victimization? 12 CHERYL BENNETT: You know, health service 13 administrators talk to each other, just like doctors 14 and attorneys and such. And I knew Carolyn 15 Smeltzer, so that I'm sure that we e-mailed each 16 other, we talked on the phone, that sort of thing. 17 And if something like that had taken place, I know 18 that Carolyn would have mentioned it to me. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: If it had been reported. 20 CHERYL BENNETT: If it had been reported. 21 But I can't speak to something that's not been 156 1 reported. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Absolutely. 3 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Ms. Bennett, how many 4 nurses are on staff? 5 CHERYL BENNETT: I have 36 nurses. 6 Thirty-one are female and five are male. I have one 7 male M.D., which is of course Doctor Raham. I have 8 one male mental health professional at the master's 9 level. One female master's level mental health 10 professional. A female mental health nurse 11 practitioner. One male nurse practitioner. I've 12 recently hired a female nurse practitioner. I have 13 three females who are medical records clerks. And 14 I've mentioned the psychologist I've recently hired. 15 And I've also recently hired a female psychiatrist. 16 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: How satisfied are you 17 that this large staff is adequately trained in the 18 specifics of sexual assault? 19 CHERYL BENNETT: Since I've been there on 20 my watch, I'm sure they're more than adequately 21 trained. As I said, I've held two sessions now 157 1 where we have trained and gone over policies and 2 what our response will be. 3 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: To your knowledge have 4 you ever had any -- the SANE nurses, sexual assault 5 nursing examiners to come in and conduct training 6 with your staff? 7 CHERYL BENNETT: No, we haven't, not yet. 8 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Is that in your plan? 9 CHERYL BENNETT: That is something I'm 10 considering down the line, yes. 11 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: When the victim of 12 sexual assault is removed from the institution and 13 then taken on to the hospital for the examination, 14 how many people accompany that individual? Who 15 accompanies that individual? 16 CHERYL BENNETT: None of the medical staff 17 does. And I'm not sure how many custody staff will 18 accompany the victim. I know at least two. 19 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Are inmates allowed to 20 make contact with advocates outside the system? 21 CHERYL BENNETT: I can't answer that, 158 1 Ms. Ellis, I don't know. 2 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Might there be 3 somebody on the team that could answer that 4 question? 5 CHERYL BENNETT: I don't know unless it 6 would be Mr. Brown. 7 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: You indicated that the 8 mental health staff takes over for the crisis 9 intervention, emotional side. Does this happen 10 before the individual is transported or throughout 11 that process or -- 12 CHERYL BENNETT: It would actually depend 13 on when the allegation was made. Of course if I 14 have staff there available, then it would take place 15 immediately. If it would happen off tour or on a 16 weekend, I would call -- I could call the in-call 17 person in, because we always have somebody on-call 18 also. So we could allow that to happen within any 19 time within the process. 20 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: So then an inmate 21 could expect to have prompt and immediate emotional 159 1 support for the victimization. 2 CHERYL BENNETT: As much as we can make it 3 as promptly and timely as possible, yes. As I say, 4 after 4:30 and on weekends we would call the call 5 person in, and then the time it would take them to 6 get there, then, yes, they would be there for them. 7 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: And an inmate would 8 not have to wait until they come back from the 9 examination, which could take hours, to have someone 10 skilled and knowledgeable in addressing those 11 immediate emotional issues? 12 CHERYL BENNETT: We would try to have 13 somebody available even before they would go, yes. 14 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Thank you. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: Ms. Bennett, we were 16 provided a document dated May 15, 2003, health care 17 services directive number 2.30. 18 CHERYL BENNETT: I don't have that in 19 front of me. 20 STEVE MCFARLAND: Let me give it to you, 21 as well as sexual assault response guidelines dated 160 1 December 12, 2002. While Ms. Bennett, I don't want 2 to rush her, while she's looking over those 3 documents, Doctor Raham, are you familiar with 4 either of those documents? 5 VANCE RAHAM: Yes, I am. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Both of them? 7 VANCE RAHAM: Yes. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: Are they still in force? 9 VANCE RAHAM: Yes, they are. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: So they were not changed 11 when the SAP policy was announced on July 1st, 2005? 12 VANCE RAHAM: These are -- to the best of 13 my knowledge, these are dated 2002. So I have not 14 seen any changes since that point. I know there are 15 new health care service directives that will be 16 coming out later this year. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: Okay. And who puts that 18 out? 19 VANCE RAHAM: These are put out by the 20 Department of Corrections. 21 CHERYL BENNETT: Department of 161 1 Corrections. Indiana Department of Corrections. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: And who specifically 3 would be putting that out this year? 4 CHERYL BENNETT: In the Indiana Department 5 of Corrections? 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Yeah. 7 CHERYL BENNETT: Doctor Amos is the 8 director. He would put it out. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: So are these the 10 procedures that your department is supposed to use 11 in the event of a sexual assault occurring within 12 the prison setting? 13 VANCE RAHAM: Yes. 14 CHERYL BENNETT: Yes. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: I realize, Ms. Bennett, 16 you haven't seen this, so I just direct this to 17 Doctor Raham. The guidelines indicate that a sexual 18 act -- "Any sexual act, including sexual touching 19 performed without the full consent of all 20 participating parties is a sexual assault. Sexual 21 assault is a criminal act." Goes on to talk about, 162 1 it can result in injury, sexual assault, 2 responsibility to treat injuries. Is that your 3 understanding of the zero tolerance policy at 4 Rockville today, that it's only -- it's only a 5 criminal sexual assault if there isn't full consent 6 by both inmates? 7 VANCE RAHAM: Depends on the definition 8 between a criminal act and what is allowable under 9 PREA and the guidelines of PREA. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: So what is allowed under 11 PREA? 12 VANCE RAHAM: Zero tolerance. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: All right. Of what -- 14 there is full consent of both of the inmates to this 15 sexual touching; is that permissible? 16 VANCE RAHAM: Consent does not come into 17 it under PREA. There is no consensual act. Sorry, 18 there are no consensual acts. 19 STEVE MCFARLAND: Is there any other 20 procedure that you're supposed to use in the health 21 care office other than this directive 2.30 in the 163 1 event of an alleged sexual assault? 2 VANCE RAHAM: To my knowledge, no, this is 3 the guidelines -- these are the guidelines we're 4 supposed to follow. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: I guess then I'm 6 confused. This protocol only describes the extent 7 of criminal acts. It doesn't address what PREA, 8 which was -- wasn't even passed at this time, this 9 document wasn't passed, produced. It doesn't 10 address PREA standards, it doesn't address 11 Commissioner Donahue's July 1, 2005 policy, and yet 12 there is no other -- there is no update to this that 13 talks about noncriminal PREA violations; is that 14 correct? 15 VANCE RAHAM: Currently we do not have any 16 other policies than this one, that's correct. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: So how do you know that 18 it is a criminal act that you're obligated to report 19 without trying to discern whether the full consent 20 of all participating parties has been obtained? 21 VANCE RAHAM: Can you say that again, 164 1 please. 2 STEVE MCFARLAND: Yeah. If the only 3 policy you have on sexual assault at Rockville is a 4 May 2003 directive written before PREA was passed, 5 and before the SAP policy was announced, and it only 6 addresses a criminal act which by definition has, as 7 a full defense, the consent of the parties, when -- 8 what's your understanding as to when you're supposed 9 to notify the authorities, notify Indiana State 10 Police, notify Indianapolis, that a criminal act has 11 occurred? 12 VANCE RAHAM: It's actually very difficult 13 because we have to go under HIPAA guidelines, we 14 have patient confidentiality rules. My review of 15 Indiana -- I'm not a lawyer, but my review of what I 16 could find about Indiana state law, unless it 17 involves a weapon, it's really not technically 18 reportable by medical personnel. We're not forced 19 by law to report that. We have PREA guidelines on 20 top of that of zero tolerance and no consensual 21 acts. Basically, if -- at this time when a patient 165 1 came in and complained of any sexual advances that 2 they were not consenting to, at this point in time I 3 would report that through the procedures we 4 discussed in the morning. We have a very open 5 policy with the superintendent, assistant 6 superintendent, we're constantly on the phone or on 7 e-mails to each other to have very open 8 communication about any problems we find that's 9 going to affect the prison in general. We would 10 notify them of that situation so they can 11 investigate it. 12 STEVE MCFARLAND: Would you notify anybody 13 if an inmate comes to you and says, I think I've got 14 an STD from a consensual relationship with a staff 15 member, would you please treat me? 16 VANCE RAHAM: Technically I can't because 17 of patient confidentiality rules. What I would do 18 with them, though, after dealing with the medical 19 issue, is let them know according to PREA and 20 according to the guidelines for this prison, there 21 is no consensual acts here. And there are no 166 1 consensual acts allowed. That if this ever becomes 2 discoverable, then they would be subject to 3 disciplinary action because of it. And my 4 suggestion to them, both medically because of the 5 risk in the prison of having sexual acts, and both 6 because of the disciplinary reasons, that they 7 should discontinue what they are currently doing. 8 STEVE MCFARLAND: But you would not report 9 it? 10 VANCE RAHAM: I can't medically report it 11 to anyone other than taking care of her, what she's 12 asking for. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: It's your understanding 14 that none of the nurses under Ms. Bennett's 15 supervision should report that kind of information? 16 CHERYL BENNETT: Are you saying if this 17 was a staff member or anybody? 18 STEVE MCFARLAND: Staff member. Go ahead. 19 With a male staff member? 20 CHERYL BENNETT: That changes things, we 21 have to report that. 167 1 STEVE MCFARLAND: So staff-on-inmate, you 2 have to report and you're free to report, is that 3 your testimony, Doctor Raham? 4 VANCE RAHAM: Yes, it is. 5 STEVE MCFARLAND: However, if the 6 allegation is that there is an inmate-on-inmate, 7 fully consensual relationship, that requires some 8 medical treatment nevertheless, you are not only not 9 obliged but you're not permitted? 10 VANCE RAHAM: That's true. If they define 11 it as consensual in her words, then I'm prevented 12 from reporting it. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: Is that your 14 understanding, Ms. Bennett? 15 CHERYL BENNETT: Yes, it is. The only 16 thing we do have to report to the State Board of 17 Health, though, is any sexually transmitted disease. 18 STEVE MCFARLAND: But that wouldn't be 19 specific -- specifically identifying anybody? 20 CHERYL BENNETT: Right. 21 VANCE RAHAM: Technically, they would be 168 1 specifically identified to the state, but not to the 2 Department of Corrections. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: And I don't think I 4 asked this specific question about the sexual 5 assault response guidelines dated December 12, 2002. 6 And I think Doctor Raham you said you had seen that 7 document; is that correct, four page? 8 VANCE RAHAM: January 21st, 2003, entitled 9 sexual assault manual. 10 STEVE MCFARLAND: Four pages, sexual 11 assault response guidelines, December 12th, 2002. I 12 can bring it up again if you would like. 13 VANCE RAHAM: Yes, that's the same thing 14 that -- just different title pages. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: So you've seen this? 16 VANCE RAHAM: Yes. 17 STEVE MCFARLAND: What is it? 18 VANCE RAHAM: Basically it's a guideline 19 for us for clinical actions to take for a patient 20 and how to care for them if this has occurred. 21 STEVE MCFARLAND: And do you abide by 169 1 this? 2 VANCE RAHAM: Yes. 3 STEVE MCFARLAND: And to your knowledge 4 has it ever been revised since December 12, 2002? 5 VANCE RAHAM: Not to my knowledge. 6 STEVE MCFARLAND: Ms. Bennett, is this 7 what you abide by as well? 8 CHERYL BENNETT: Yes. 9 STEVE MCFARLAND: And is it -- are you 10 aware of any instances in which you or your staff 11 have not abided by this procedure? 12 CHERYL BENNETT: I'm not aware of any. 13 STEVE MCFARLAND: And Doctor Raham? 14 VANCE RAHAM: Neither am I. 15 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: In not being able to 16 report a discussion and your knowledge of consensual 17 sex, what are you governed by on that? 18 VANCE RAHAM: The HIPAA laws which are 19 protection of personal medical information of 20 patients. And just the moral and ethical guidelines 21 of medicine in general, which have been upheld in 170 1 the courts, of the preservation of confidential 2 information between a physician and a patient. 3 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: I see. Is there not a 4 safe-haven clause in the HIPAA laws that allow you 5 some discretion in disclosing information? 6 VANCE RAHAM: I'm not an attorney and I 7 can't really answer that question. HIPAA has been a 8 bear to deal with since it's come out. It has been 9 interpreted many different ways. And despite having 10 training and different courses about HIPAA, I have 11 never had it explained to me the same way twice. 12 Particulars about a safe-haven clause, I do not know 13 about. 14 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Thank you. 15 STEVE MCFARLAND: All right. Thank you 16 very much, Doctor Raham and Ms. Bennett. We're 17 going to break for an hour's lunch and we will 18 continue at 1:15 with Ms. Ferguson, Ms. Smith, 19 Mr. Newlin. Thank you very much. 20 (Break taken at 12:19 p.m.) 21 (Resumed at 1:23 p.m.) 171 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Welcome back. Thank 2 you for joining us. Could each of you please raise 3 your right hand and take the oath? Do you solemnly 4 swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to 5 give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 6 but the truth, so help you God? 7 WITNESSES: I do. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Would you please state 9 your full name and title for the record, please? 10 Jerry, why don't you start. 11 JERRY NEWLIN: Jerry Newlin, internal 12 affairs investigator. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: At Rockville. 14 JERRY NEWLIN: At Rockville Correctional 15 Facility, yes. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And how long have you 17 been there? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: Thirty-four years. 19 Approximately 34 years. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: At Rockville? 21 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 172 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I bet you know that 2 place. 3 JERRY NEWLIN: Well, they tore it down and 4 rebuilt a new one, so yes, sir. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And Ms. Ferguson. 6 PAM FERGUSON: Pam Ferguson, Rockville 7 Correctional Facility, and I'm the classification 8 supervisor in charge of the housing assignments and 9 the work assignments. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How long have you been 11 there? 12 PAM FERGUSON: Ten and a half years. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: At Rockville? 14 PAM FERGUSON: Yes. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Great. And Ms. Smith. 16 FRAN SMITH: I'm Fran Smith, I'm a unit 17 manager, I supervise housing where the offenders are 18 housed, and I've been there 22 years at Rockville. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Twenty-two years and 20 you're unit manager at which -- for all the dorms? 21 PAM FERGUSON: No. Half of the dorms. 173 1 There are two unit managers at Rockville and I 2 supervise half of those dorms. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And which dorm numbers? 4 PAM FERGUSON: Four, five and segregation. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Four and five and ad 6 seg? 7 PAM FERGUSON: Yes. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And how long have you 9 been unit manager, Fran? 10 PAM FERGUSON: Approximately eight years. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And Ms. Ferguson, how 12 long have you been classifications supervisor? 13 PAM FERGUSON: Seven years. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And Mr. Newlin, you've 15 been at Rockville 34 years. How long have you been 16 an IA investigator? 17 JERRY NEWLIN: Six years. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And prior to that time? 19 JERRY NEWLIN: I started out as a 20 correctional officer. Was a correctional sergeant, 21 went into counseling, and then went to the training 174 1 department and was a director of training there for 2 12 years, before taking the position in 2002 in 3 internal affairs. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Would you mind 5 scooching your microphones a little bit closer to 6 you? Mr. Newlin, are there any other male 7 investigators at Rockville? 8 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir, I'm the only 9 internal affairs position. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: The only investigator? 11 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: All right. And do you 13 ever run into a situation where you feel it might be 14 more effective to have a female investigator? 15 JERRY NEWLIN: I haven't. I understand 16 the need for that, but I feel fortunate so far that 17 I haven't run into that situation. If need be or if 18 they feel more comfortable speaking with someone or 19 having someone else present, that's always an option 20 that they have. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How would that work? 175 1 Assuming you knew that that's what they wanted, do 2 you have the option of getting somebody from the 3 outside to come in as a counselor, or are you 4 talking about using a female CO? 5 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, I could use a female 6 correctional officer, might be somebody they are 7 more familiar with, possibly Fran, unit team 8 manager, somebody of that nature, yes, sir. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: But you couldn't bring 10 a trained counselor or trained investigator in from 11 the outside to investigate? 12 JERRY NEWLIN: I could bring another 13 internal affairs investigator in from the 14 department. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Sure. 16 JERRY NEWLIN: But as far as an outside 17 agency, at that point in time being an internal 18 problem, no, sir. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: In your six years as an 20 IA investigator, have you ever brought someone in 21 from the outside, from outside the facility? 176 1 JERRY NEWLIN: As far as investigation? 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yes, sir. 3 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. The Indiana 4 State Police has been involved at different times 5 when we have expressed concerns to them that we have 6 an infraction on the inside that had some litigation 7 to that as well. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Did they send a female 9 investigator? 10 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So you've never had 12 occasion to bring in a female investigator? 13 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. We were provided 15 under Exhibit 6 all of the -- a summary of all of 16 the offender grievances in 2006. Do you know -- do 17 you know -- do you review the grievances? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir, I don't. No, sir, 19 I don't. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: When would you ever 21 have occasion to get involved in an investigation, 177 1 how does it work? 2 JERRY NEWLIN: The process would be that 3 information would be directed to the 4 superintendent's office, and I work directly under 5 the superintendent. It could be referred from the 6 superintendent's office, it could be through the 7 assistant superintendent of operations, it could be 8 through the assistant superintendent of programs or 9 reentry, or it could also be from the custody 10 supervisor, Major Kidwell. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Mr. Brown, if you don't 12 mind my asking you, do you know who prepared the 13 summaries of the grievances for us? 14 RICHARD BROWN: No, I do not. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Ms. Stout, do you know 16 who prepared these? 17 JULIE STOUT: Can I see it? 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Sure. Quite a few of 19 them. 20 RANDY KOESTER: I may be able to clarify 21 this. We mentioned before the new grievance 178 1 tracking system that's a Web-based tracking system. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Come to the mic. And 3 we might as well swear you in if you don't mind, 4 Mr. Koester. 5 RANDY KOESTER: Randy Koester. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you solemnly swear 7 that the testimony you're about to give will be the 8 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? 9 RANDY KOESTER: I do. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And your name is Randy 11 Koester, K-O-E-S-T-E-R? 12 RANDY KOESTER: It is. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And you're chief of 14 staff for the IDOC? 15 RANDY KOESTER: I am. The question was 16 about Exhibit 6, which is kind of a synopsis of 17 grievances that were filed. Commissioner mentioned 18 in his opening remarks that we went from a five-step 19 grievance system to a two-step Web-based grievance 20 system with more tracking capabilities. I believe 21 we got this straight from our IT track and we can 179 1 now track it at central office. So I don't think we 2 got it from the facility, I think we got it straight 3 from our central office database. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. So this is just 5 printed off just as you would see it. This wasn't 6 somebody's work product, somebody didn't go through 7 all 2006 grievances and summarize them just for this 8 Review Panel? 9 RANDY KOESTER: I believe that's correct. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And the individual who 11 would be most familiar with grievances from 12 Rockville in 2006 would be whom? Would be you, 13 Ms. Ferguson? 14 PAM FERGUSON: Yes. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Let me direct your 16 attention to an incident dated, and I think they are 17 in chronological order, January 26, '06. You all 18 have a set there. It's not -- it's not paginated so 19 I can't -- incident date is 26, January, '06. Log 20 I.D. 7544. 21 PAM FERGUSON: Beauty shop. 180 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yeah. This grievance, 2 an inmate felt discriminated against because a 3 captain would not allow her to violate a room 4 restriction to go have her hair done at the beauty 5 shop. Her basis for discrimination is that she is 6 both black and a homosexual and this is why he would 7 not let her go. And the response was, return to 8 offender for informal resolution, no response 9 received. Is there -- have you observed any racial 10 bias problems among inmates? 11 PAM FERGUSON: Among inmates themselves, 12 very rarely. Very rarely. Once in a while we 13 receive a few offenders who have a bias against 14 another race, but for the most part it's okay. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And what about staff 16 and inmates, is there any racial tension? 17 PAM FERGUSON: Every once in a while we 18 have an offender that claims that, but I'm Hispanic 19 and I have never even noticed it there. I think I'm 20 one of only two maybe there, and I've never noticed 21 the bias there. And when we actually sit down and 181 1 talk to the offender on cases like this, I supervise 2 the officer that does the grievance forms, so she 3 will bring them to me when she has a question or 4 problem. And when we bring up the offender and talk 5 to her, the issue a lot of times is not race-based, 6 it's they're angry because they weren't allowed to 7 go out. And most of the time that's how it's 8 resolved, and then we say it was sent back to her 9 for informal resolution. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: What does that mean? 11 PAM FERGUSON: She needs to go back to her 12 counselor or casework manager and try to work with 13 that so there's not a long dispute or problem 14 between her and the captain. Obviously, she will be 15 there and he works there, that they come to a 16 resolution. So sometimes the counselor will go out 17 and talk to the captain and say, has nothing to do 18 with her color or anything like that, the problem is 19 she was in trouble, she was sent to her room, and so 20 you can't have the extra privileges of going to the 21 beauty shop. And they will call you back later 182 1 anyway. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is there any bias 3 between inmates on the basis of homosexuality? Some 4 inmates use epithets or labels, derogatory language 5 about queers? 6 PAM FERGUSON: I've heard a few people say 7 some things. Or when we get ready to assign them in 8 a dorm, they don't want to be in a dorm with people 9 who they think may be gay or lesbian. But, you 10 know, we assure them that that's not necessarily the 11 case, that they report anything they see. But 12 that's even rare. They are more concerned about 13 making sure that their visits will start up when 14 they come out of the intake unit and have family. 15 That's mostly their concerns when they come out of 16 the intake unit. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Sorry, their concern 18 when they come out of the intake unit? 19 PAM FERGUSON: Dorm two on your graph is 20 an intake unit. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yes. 183 1 PAM FERGUSON: And that's where all the 2 new offenders are coming in from the County jails 3 there. There are two classification supervisors, 4 one for intake, and then I oversee Rockville. The 5 one from intake will move them out over to my side, 6 into the population, and that's when I first start 7 interacting with the offenders at that point. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: When they get out of 9 dorm two? 10 PAM FERGUSON: Correct. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: If you wouldn't mind 12 looking at April 8, '06. Log I.D. 11084. Here you 13 have an offender who was going to brush her teeth 14 and the correctional officer would not allow her to 15 go into the bathroom until certain offender came out 16 because he believed that they were doing things 17 other than brushing their teeth in bathroom. The 18 response was that, to the offender, your restroom 19 privileges were not denied, you were only delayed. 20 If the correctional officer had any knowledge of an 21 impending incident between you and another offender 184 1 and he was able to stop it from happening, he was 2 indeed practicing proper security skills. Do you 3 agree with that response? 4 PAM FERGUSON: It all depends on what I 5 thought if I were the officer they were doing in 6 that bathroom. If she was being intimidated by the 7 other offender, if I felt she didn't feel safe with 8 that offender, I might have delayed her too from 9 going in there. It all depends on what -- 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: On who they are and the 11 circumstances, right. And would it have been 12 equally a good response by the correctional officer 13 if he or she thought that some consensual sexual 14 activity was going on in the bathroom? 15 PAM FERGUSON: Yes. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I thought this was a 17 great intervention. Just wanted to make sure I 18 understood. On May 12, '06. Log I.D. 13045. 19 PAM FERGUSON: In May '06. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: 12, May '06. Log I.D. 21 13045. Correctional officer found pictures of the 185 1 offender in a negligee and showed it to many 2 officers and other staff members. 3 PAM FERGUSON: Sorry, can you repeat that. 4 I still haven't found it in here. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Sure. Log I.D. 13045. 6 What may be confusing is that there are two -- 7 PAM FERGUSON: Okay, there are two. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: There are two 13045s. 9 Same date, different events. Top of the page. 10 PAM FERGUSON: Okay. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. Take a minute to 12 read it. 13 PAM FERGUSON: Is this the one where the 14 correctional officer found the pictures? 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yeah. 16 PAM FERGUSON: Okay. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: What's your 18 understanding of the propriety of a correctional 19 officer showing to many officers and other staff a 20 revealing picture of an inmate confiscated from the 21 cell? Is that something that's -- is that 186 1 misconduct by a staff or is that just common fare? 2 PAM FERGUSON: If I were to take it 3 exactly as it is written, many officers, it would be 4 misconduct. I mean you shouldn't be showing a 5 picture. But the definition of -- was she showing 6 the sergeant, was she showing the housing 7 lieutenant, this correctional officer to get 8 guidance on it, I would have to talk to the offender 9 herself on this grievance. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And who enters these 11 log entries? 12 PAM FERGUSON: A correctional officer. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So it's not like the 14 correctional officer who entered this description -- 15 PAM FERGUSON: Is the same one would be on 16 the dorm. She is not even on a dorm. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: But I'm saying this is 18 a correctional officer's description of what 19 happened, not just a quote of the offender's 20 grievance. 21 PAM FERGUSON: This is the -- that 187 1 description where it says, correctional officer 2 found pictures of the offender. That's the 3 offender's description. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So we don't know if in 5 fact it's just -- we don't know how many many is. 6 PAM FERGUSON: Correct. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: All right. If you 8 would turn to June 7, '06. Log 14198. 9 PAM FERGUSON: Okay. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Description, she heard 11 correctional officer call another offender queer. 12 In response, returned with instructions to talk to 13 her counselor the next day. Does -- I assume that 14 it evidently happens that correctional officers use 15 monikers like that on occasion to refer to an 16 offender? 17 PAM FERGUSON: I would hope not, but I 18 know people on the outside do it all the time. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: On the outside. 20 PAM FERGUSON: Inappropriate behavior, 21 yeah. I'm going to assume the correctional officer, 188 1 being a person, may also do that. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: In your ten and a half 3 years with the IDOC, have you ever heard a 4 correctional officer refer to another offender as a 5 queer? 6 PAM FERGUSON: Absolutely not. Absolutely 7 not. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Assuming for a moment 9 that there had been some kind of an exchange like 10 that, do you think this response -- what good is it 11 going to do to tell the offender to go talk to your 12 counselor as opposed to maybe talking to the CO and 13 finding out if he or she is using those kinds of 14 labels? 15 PAM FERGUSON: Correct. See, on this 16 response, you don't have the rest -- all of it -- 17 how it was resolved. Where it says, response, 18 return with instructions to talk to her counselor, 19 could be that the offender didn't fill the form out 20 or give enough information in the form, so it's 21 returned to her counselor. She may need assistance 189 1 in writing this one, because sometimes their -- some 2 of the offender's writing skills are pretty poor and 3 their spelling. So we will return them to the -- 4 with the offender to see her counselor or call ahead 5 to the counselor for them to properly fill out the 6 form. So I don't know what happened with the rest 7 of this. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you know if the 9 correctional officer was interviewed? 10 PAM FERGUSON: I don't know. I don't 11 know. 12 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Ms. Ferguson. 13 PAM FERGUSON: Yes. 14 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: I would like to have 15 us look at log number 23286, November 20. 16 PAM FERGUSON: Of 2006. 17 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Yes. 18 PAM FERGUSON: Okay. 19 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: While being searched, 20 the male officer touched her breast. Is there more 21 you can tell us on that one? 190 1 PAM FERGUSON: No, I'm not familiar -- I 2 can't read it all. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: While she is reading, 4 Mr. Newlin, do you recall anything about any of the 5 instances that we have been discussing? 6 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir, I don't. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. Just go ahead, 8 if you would pipe up if you did ever see any of 9 these grievances. 10 JERRY NEWLIN: That's why I was looking at 11 them. 12 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: You would not have 13 investigated them; is that correct, sir? 14 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir, not unless -- 15 ma'am, this would have been the first-step process 16 to where it was either reported by the offender or 17 discovered at that time. There is several avenues 18 in which reporting things can be to any staff 19 member, to an anonymous note, to they may feel 20 comfortable just writing something on a grievance 21 form to get someone to speak with. No, I just don't 191 1 have any knowledge on it. Just reviewing it, I 2 would say that again we're looking at a situation 3 again of officer did a pat search, when it indicates 4 my breast while searching me. And I felt violated, 5 it was inappropriate, I've never been searched like 6 that the whole time I've been here. So that could 7 be, you know, like I say, it could be an officer pat 8 search is what it's in reference to. But I was not 9 aware of any action. 10 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: This method of 11 resolving issues, returning and talking with someone 12 and kind of working it out, it sounds like, this is 13 a new approach; is that correct? 14 PAM FERGUSON: Yes. 15 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Because this is -- 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: For the record, we need 17 a response. 18 PAM FERGUSON: Yes. 19 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Because this is a new 20 approach or program, have you conducted an 21 evaluation to determine whether or not this is an 192 1 effective way of dealing with these types of 2 incidents? 3 PAM FERGUSON: Well, I know that central 4 office, we have had several meetings even since 5 this, and we have enhanced it a little bit more than 6 when we first started out with the original plan. 7 And I can only speak personally of the facility. I 8 feel like it's got the offenders talking more with 9 their casework managers and their unit team. And 10 the officer who does this, Ms. Sherry White, she is 11 excellent at sitting down and bringing the offender 12 in and talking, which is something we didn't have 13 before with the old system. Are there still a few 14 bugs to work out? Probably on there, but we're 15 trying to enhance it. It's better than it's been. 16 And the offenders feel that it's better. Now, I 17 mean I heard several comments from them when we 18 started this, but there's -- I'm not denying there 19 is some things we need to work out, maybe a 20 continuation of what the result was instead of just 21 stopping at this point. 193 1 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: It doesn't necessarily 2 discourage people from reporting because they 3 believe that they won't be taken seriously to any 4 great extent but will be reverted back to the 5 individual that they perhaps hold responsible for 6 the -- 7 PAM FERGUSON: We used to have some of the 8 offenders thinking why bother, they are not going to 9 do anything about it anyway. But as we have the 10 intake unit and the new offenders and they do see 11 that you do get a response, you do get called in, 12 you are directed in one way or another. With the 13 newer people, yes, it's fine, and they don't -- I 14 mean, I can't say everybody comes because I don't 15 know what the numbers are not coming in, but I know 16 it's improved with the offenders and the grievance 17 policy now. But we have the old ones that say why 18 bother. 19 RANDY KOESTER: If I could also add. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Just a second. I 21 wanted to clarify. Ms. Sherry White does what? 194 1 PAM FERGUSON: She is the correctional 2 officer that enters the grievance forms and then she 3 generates a response, brings them to me, and then 4 I'll review the responses and either call the 5 offender up and talk to them myself or tell Sherry 6 the response was fine, go ahead and send out, she 7 needs more instruction. 8 RANDY KOESTER: We're also in the process 9 of what I call phase two of our grievance process. 10 When we blew up the old one and rebuilt what we've 11 got now, there was some issues that we wanted to 12 address at a later date because of technology and 13 things such as that. One of the things that -- and 14 things we discovered since we implemented this. One 15 of them you touched on. We have a very vibrant, 16 informal process now but we don't track it. We do 17 at some of our juvenile facilities but we don't 18 really have a mechanism for tracking. And it kind 19 of runs contrary, the more you track, the more it 20 becomes a formalized and more bureaucratic process. 21 But we're looking, we got a group -- the 195 1 Commissioner tasked a working group last month to do 2 this. I've talked with them last week actually 3 about their progress. We're also looking at new 4 technology. We're piloting some kiosks, and 5 Rockville is one of the sites we're piloting it at. 6 We haven't implemented grievance forms yet, but 7 we're talking about doing just that. It's used to 8 handle different communications, checking account 9 balances, and it also can be used to e-mail family 10 and friends. One of the thing it's capable of doing 11 is allowing the offender to file grievances or to 12 allow the offender to communicate with staff without 13 other offenders knowing they are doing that. So 14 that's another thing that we're looking at now. 15 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Ms. Ferguson, is it 16 your sense that offenders harbor a great deal of 17 fear in Rockville? What are they most afraid of? 18 PAM FERGUSON: Honestly, I think -- 19 because I work in the job and on housing 20 assignments -- it's their job and how long they are 21 going to have to work, what will it entail, who do I 196 1 report to? Because that's the area I work the most 2 in is with housing. 3 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: So what job they will 4 be assigned to? 5 PAM FERGUSON: Correct. 6 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: And who will report 7 to? 8 PAM FERGUSON: Correct. And how long they 9 have to stay at the job. 10 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Why do you think they 11 would be concerned about who they may have to report 12 to? 13 PAM FERGUSON: Because, in my opinion, 14 when they are coming out of the intake unit, 15 everybody is afraid when you get there. Then you 16 find a little bit of comfort because it becomes 17 familiar. We're taking them out of their routine 18 again from the intake unit and putting them into 19 open population. So having a job, this is the first 20 time they have had a job in the prison. They have 21 been housed in the prison, they're kind of used to 197 1 that. When I see them, this is their first 2 experience in getting a job, so there is a lot of 3 apprehension. And I think that's what it's 4 attributed to, it's just going to be a different 5 experience they weren't used to in the intake unit. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Let me ask you about 7 October 10, '06. Log I.D. 21029. 8 PAM FERGUSON: October 6, I'm sorry. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: October 10. Bottom of 10 the page. 11 PAM FERGUSON: If I would have known you 12 were going to use this so much, we would have put 13 this in a different order. What's the number, 14 sorry? 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: 21029. 16 PAM FERGUSON: October 6. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: October 10, 2006. 10 18 October '06. "Officer Reynolds had the offender 19 take off her shirt in the center hallway of the 20 dorm. Relief sought, for the officer to leave her 21 alone. Response, return for informal resolution, no 198 1 response received." What gender is Officer 2 Reynolds? 3 PAM FERGUSON: Female. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is it proper for a 5 correctional officer to order an offender to disrobe 6 in the center hallway of a dorm? 7 PAM FERGUSON: Well, based on just the 8 information we have here, me not being there, the 9 offenders wear several layers of shirts. They wear 10 the thermal shirt, the T-shirt, and maybe their work 11 smock or work shirt over it. So I don't know -- I 12 have never seen anybody strip somebody to their bra 13 in the hallway. So I don't know just by reading 14 this -- 15 FRAN SMITH: This incident happened in one 16 of the dorms that I supervise. The offender had on 17 a T-shirt underneath her shirt. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You remember this 19 incident? 20 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How about December 27? 199 1 PAM FERGUSON: This is the one where the 2 offender became upset over the wrong information? 3 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Yes. 4 PAM FERGUSON: They previously had been -- 5 the officer threatened the offender with a formal 6 write-up, had the offender cornered. 7 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Can you give us some 8 idea of what happened here? 9 PAM FERGUSON: I really can't. Not just 10 based on this part. It says, "the officer became 11 upset over information in a previous grievance. The 12 officer threatened the offender with a formal 13 write-up and had the offender cornered. Relief 14 sought, none stated." 15 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: I was wondering what 16 the cornered -- what cornered meant in this case. 17 Was somebody backed into a corner and intimidated in 18 some way based on misinformation based on a 19 previous -- 20 PAM FERGUSON: Once again, just based on 21 this information, I don't know. And this is the 200 1 offender writing this, and I don't know if they were 2 in a hallway talking. I don't know without the full 3 grievance here. 4 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: I want to shift back 5 to you, sir, if I may. Can a woman's past history 6 of sexual abuse impact her demeanor or response in 7 the throes of an investigation? 8 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, ma'am, it can. 9 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: How? 10 JERRY NEWLIN: Well, number one, their 11 self-concept about themselves as individuals, it 12 affects them in that way very much so. They become 13 very emotional because of something personal to 14 them. The element that they are in, being in a 15 prison setting versus being at home again and it's 16 almost like a worthless feeling that it's happened 17 to me or I'm a worthless person or how does this 18 continue to happen to me. So a lot of times they 19 are just feelings of helplessness and despair in 20 regards to the situation. 21 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Have you had training 201 1 in this area, sir? 2 JERRY NEWLIN: No, ma'am, not specifically 3 in those areas. I've had a lot of training through 4 the years. Just, I think, my years of experience in 5 dealing with people and being in those kind of 6 situations before and being involved in a number of 7 those situations through the years, you learn to 8 gain respect for those individuals and their 9 situations. So, I think, probably more than 10 professional training, it's just the training in the 11 incidents that I've became involved with through the 12 years that have allowed me to grow my knowledge and 13 experience in dealing with those. 14 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: A lot of experience. 15 Would you be open to additional -- or to training? 16 JERRY NEWLIN: Oh, yes, ma'am. 17 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Particularly in the 18 impact of trauma? 19 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, ma'am. 20 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Is there an avenue for 21 you to receive that? 202 1 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, I'm sure that there 2 is. There is always training opportunities that are 3 available for us in the investigative fields, 4 whether it's crime scene preservation or those types 5 of things. I don't know that that particular topic 6 has been available here recently in a sense, but, 7 yes, I'm always open to those avenues. 8 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Is there a specific 9 mental health protocol for investigations? 10 JERRY NEWLIN: Sorry? 11 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Is there a special 12 mental health protocol for investigations? 13 JERRY NEWLIN: And how would you mean, in 14 reference that if I feel an individual needs mental 15 health? 16 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: In how you approach 17 the particular case, and the situation in dealing 18 with it, in referring someone who is a professional 19 mental health -- 20 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, ma'am. Basically, I 21 can just contact mental health. I'll notify the 203 1 superintendent that during this investigation I feel 2 this individual may be vulnerable, who may need 3 mental health counseling. I have the avenues to be 4 able to check on her mental health and her 5 counseling and check with her state and consult with 6 those people as well to see if she is experiencing 7 any problems or difficulty or if she is receiving 8 counseling on a regular basis. 9 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Is it your job to 10 investigate cases that may involve staff misconduct? 11 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, ma'am. 12 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Have you done many of 13 those lately? 14 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. Just recently here in 15 January of this year, we had a situation where a 16 correctional employee was dismissed in regard to -- 17 it was a relationship, and I think it was spoke on 18 earlier today, relationship to trafficking as well 19 as befriending an offender, and probably becoming 20 too close to her beyond what his normal duties and 21 responsibilities should be as far as befriending 204 1 that individual. And I think there was trafficking 2 of candy back and forth at that time. 3 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Who would have the 4 information relative to the number of homicides or 5 suicides that have occurred? 6 JERRY NEWLIN: As the number of homicides, 7 we have never had a homicide. 8 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Throughout the 9 history? 10 JERRY NEWLIN: Throughout the history of 11 the facility, no. The number of suicides, we have 12 had one suicide. We have had several, maybe, 13 attempts, or of attempted suicides, or people 14 attempting to commit suicide. I say several, I 15 can't be specific on that number or case. Three or 16 four probably at this point in time that come to 17 mind. 18 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Do you investigate 19 those, Mr. Newlin? 20 JERRY NEWLIN: Sorry? 21 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Do you investigate 205 1 those attempts? 2 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, yes. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: What happens -- just 4 want to clarify the grievance process. Are there 5 any records that indicate how a grievance was 6 resolving? In many of these we brought up, say 7 didn't report back for informal resolution. Where 8 would anyone keep a record of what happened to bring 9 it to resolution? 10 PAM FERGUSON: If it was continued on, 11 then it would go down to central office and they 12 would have the final response. Or the offender 13 could say that she -- if the correctional officer, 14 Ms. White, had resolved it with her, then the 15 offender signs off on her grievance saying she 16 agrees or concludes with the end result. We have 17 had staff who we've had to have a meeting with or 18 talk to, or maybe their action was inappropriate or 19 maybe it was a misunderstanding between the two of 20 them, and then we sign on there what we have done 21 and the offender sees it and she signs off on it. 206 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: These are staff-inmate 2 disagreements? 3 PAM FERGUSON: Correct. And then if it 4 goes beyond something we can't -- she is not happy 5 with the resolution here, that we talked to the 6 person for example, then if she is still not happy, 7 it can go downtown and then we get a response from 8 them, so they would have the final one if it goes 9 beyond our facility. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Does that get entered 11 into this same database? So if it's not on this -- 12 what did you call the log, the grievance log? 13 PAM FERGUSON: Grievance. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So if it's not entered 15 by Sherry White or anybody else on this grievance 16 log, there is no other documentation about the 17 ultimate resolution of this? 18 PAM FERGUSON: No, I think that a response 19 from central office goes in there too. This may 20 just be from Rockville at this point. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Mr. Koester, do you 207 1 know the answer to that question? Not trying to 2 bushwhack you there, but we're talking about whether 3 there's documentation in central office of how any 4 of these grievances were resolved, if they weren't 5 successful in informal resolution. 6 RANDY KOESTER: We record -- there's an 7 appeal process. After the informal resolution, they 8 do have to start a form process. They have a form 9 that goes to the facility executive assistant, who 10 then formally, working with the facility executive 11 staff, formally tries to resolve it. And from there 12 if the relief of the -- the offender isn't getting 13 the relief she would like, she can appeal it to 14 central office. We have a grievance review manager 15 at central office who can then review it. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Have you provided us 17 with any such documents that relate to sexual 18 assault or staff sexual misconduct? 19 RANDY KOESTER: As far as grievances, I 20 don't believe there were any. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Formal grievances? 208 1 RANDY KOESTER: We provided you all the 2 grievances. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Any of the process you 4 just described, what we have is what there is; is 5 that correct? 6 RANDY KOESTER: I believe so. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: To your best knowledge, 8 nothing in central office that discusses any formal 9 resolution beyond the institution of an inmate 10 grievance relating to sexual assault or staff sexual 11 misconduct? 12 RANDY KOESTER: I don't know of one -- I 13 don't know of any. I don't know that any exist. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Have you made a search? 15 RANDY KOESTER: I have to specifically do 16 that before I can answer that with confidence. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You have not? 18 RANDY KOESTER: I have not done a search. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who is the custodian in 20 central office of those kind of records? 21 RANDY KOESTER: We have a grievance review 209 1 manager; her name is Linda Vernatta. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I wanted to go back to, 3 Mr. Newlin, you mentioned that you got real busy in 4 January of this year because a correctional officer 5 was dismissed, did you say? 6 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And who was -- what was 8 the gender of the officer? 9 JERRY NEWLIN: He was a male officer. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And why was he 11 dismissed? 12 JERRY NEWLIN: For trafficking. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Does that mean bringing 14 in contraband? 15 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Was that the candy? 17 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Anything else? 19 JERRY NEWLIN: She had alleged that -- the 20 offender alleged at the time that the complaint was 21 initiated that he had discussed with her the size of 210 1 her breasts. And also that she had indicated that 2 as they entered an area -- or as they were leaving 3 an area to obtain some paper toweling and stuff, 4 that he at that point in time touched her on her 5 buttocks. The officer at that point in time 6 admitted to the fact that he had -- he admitted to 7 the fact that, if I did say those things, it was in 8 general conversation. That was his statement in 9 that regard there. As far as the touching of the 10 buttocks, his response was at that point in time, if 11 I did hit her as we were leaving the room, it was 12 accidental. But due to the nature of the situation 13 and the other allegations that had been there, and 14 she was the individual that reported the situation 15 as well, there's some credibility to her statement 16 at that point in time. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Where did this occur? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: This occurred in the 19 offender services building in the main corridor, in 20 the offender services building around the officer's 21 desk, and the women's restroom and the staff break 211 1 room area right there. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: In the women's 3 restroom? 4 JERRY NEWLIN: No. The incident occurred, 5 what it was, she was a lay advocate for the adult 6 disciplinary policy. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: She being the victim? 8 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, she being the offender 9 and the victim. And the officer's station is right 10 in that area. So that is where -- in a sense her 11 office was to provide assistance to offenders who 12 may be going in for adult disciplinary hearings and 13 so forth. So with her location being there and the 14 officer's station being there, and he being 15 regularly assigned to that post, there was an amount 16 of several days and lot of opportunity for 17 conversation to develop. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: For familiarity to 19 develop? 20 JERRY NEWLIN: Exactly. The incident 21 started sometime around Christmas time, and I think 212 1 she reported it, it was right after the first of the 2 year. It was between -- between Christmas and New 3 Year's, somewhere in that area there that she 4 reported the incident. And investigating it at that 5 point in time it was found out. But just from 6 familiarization at that time and general 7 conversation, being in that area, plus he admitted 8 to the fact that, I lay candy on my desk and I turn 9 my back and when I turn back around the candy was 10 gone. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is there a video 12 surveillance of this area? 13 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir, we don't have 14 video within the facility. Excuse me, we do in our 15 visitation area and we do in our segregation cells. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So ad seg has cameras 17 and visitation. Anywhere else? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: Not all the cells have 19 cameras. I think four of the cells are camera 20 cells, and the rest are not. And then the 21 visitation center. 213 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Four of the ad seg 2 cells? 3 FRAN SMITH: Yes, have cameras. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: For? 5 FRAN SMITH: Observation. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: There are no cameras in 7 any of the residential dorms. Is that your 8 testimony? 9 JERRY NEWLIN: Correct. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Correct. Okay. So 11 this is an instance of he said, she said, right? 12 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I'm impressed that 14 without video you gave credibility to the victim and 15 dismissed a correctional officer on the basis of her 16 version of things. 17 JERRY NEWLIN: The thing of it at that 18 point in time, it was his admission as well. The 19 Commissioner spoke earlier in a sense to the CVSA 20 test. And that was something that, due to the 21 nature of the allegation -- that we offered. The 214 1 officer was willing to take the CVSA test as well as 2 the offender was. We ran the offender first and her 3 report came back that her statement was credible. 4 And she passed that at that point in time. Before 5 we ran the officer, he admitted to the fact, you 6 know, that he did before he went on. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: But what he admitted to 8 was, maybe in general conversation I discussed the 9 size of her breast? 10 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. And that's what he 11 admitted to then. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And that he might have 13 accidentally touched her buttock? 14 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. But he did admit to 15 the trafficking issue, and that's what the main 16 obligation was at that point in time that he was 17 dismissed on. The others were secondary in a sense 18 at that point in time. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I don't know about 20 Ms. Ellis, but that shows you are really enforcing 21 that policy. I mean that's very impressive. That 215 1 would have been a breath of fresh air earlier this 2 week to hear that. I mean that sends a message. 3 JERRY NEWLIN: Through my years of 4 experience, there's a lot of sexual connotation on 5 men supervising women. And being a male and being 6 in the business for as many years as I have, I think 7 we need to raise that bar and set that standard, 8 that nobody is beyond reproach. And we will take it 9 to whatever limits within our reasons to be able to 10 do that. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Impressive. Can you 12 tell me more, Mr. Newlin, about the CVSA? Is this 13 the -- what does that stand for? 14 JERRY NEWLIN: It's a computerized voice 15 stress analysis machine. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. 17 JERRY NEWLIN: And how that situation 18 works, it just works on the tones of the voice in a 19 sense, and that's what it will reach up to. And it 20 establishes a base for when the person responds to a 21 truthful question or whether it doesn't respond to, 216 1 you know, a false statement. Color of this -- walls 2 are red. Then you get your baseline and you go from 3 there. Myself, I'm not a certified operator. Our 4 chief investigator, Willard Plank, has been 5 certified since the late 80s. He was before the 6 CVSA test -- I think they called it a PSI test, I 7 think, back at that time, which is like a 8 psychiatric testing. Then it went to the VSA, voice 9 stress analysis. From there it went to a 10 computerized voice stress analysis. Then the 11 computerized voice stress analysis. Then the graphs 12 and the charts and the determination were monitored 13 and read in a sense by the operator himself. And 14 then that individual would send it and say refer to 15 another investigator that would be certified for a 16 cold case call to be able to interpret the chart. 17 The CVSA-2, which they have now, has an instrument 18 in that that also allows the computer base to be 19 able to give you a reading on that so that you have 20 your interpretation, but then also it's a 21 computerized interpretation as well. 217 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: If a staff is accused 2 of a rule violation, can he or she terminate the 3 investigation by resigning? 4 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. But that does not 5 mean -- well, they can resign during the 6 investigation, but that does not mean that the 7 allegations based -- that the investigation would 8 stop at that point in time. Say if it were a sexual 9 misconduct or violation of a state law and they 10 tender their resignation, that does not mean the 11 investigation would stop at that time. We would 12 continue to pursue that through the Indiana State 13 Police. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: What if it didn't rise 15 to the level of criminal activity? If he resigns, 16 that's the end of your administrative investigation; 17 is that right? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. And that would 19 be a violation of our information codes and 20 standards of conduct. So I mean we would look at a 21 violation of the code of conduct that we have that 218 1 all employees are bound under as well as state law. 2 RANDY KOESTER: If I might. If an 3 employee does resign during the course of an 4 investigation, it's considered a resignation not in 5 good standing, so they won't be eligible for rehire 6 by a state government -- and also other benefits and 7 some other issues they won't be entitled to as well. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Have there been any 9 successful criminal prosecutions of Rockville staff 10 to your knowledge, Mr. Newlin? 11 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir, there have. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: There have been. And 13 how many and who? 14 JERRY NEWLIN: One that I can recall in 15 2003 was a sexual misconduct on a correctional 16 officer, male correctional officer. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And what did he do? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: He had received oral sex 19 from one of the offenders. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And he was convicted in 21 a criminal court? 219 1 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And was he sentenced? 3 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, he was given a 4 misdemeanor. It was, I think, sexual misconduct, a 5 Class D felony at that time it went through the 6 criminal court system in Clark County. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you know if he did 8 any time? 9 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir, I don't think he 10 did. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Needless to say, he's 12 not eligible for rehire? 13 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 14 DAVID DONAHUE: And it's that particular 15 history that we went back to the General Assembly, 16 and the laws have been changed in Indiana. If that 17 were to occur today, it would now be a Class C 18 felony, and the ability for those individuals to 19 come into our system would be pretty pervasive. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That raises a question, 21 Commissioner. Is a convicted felon eligible for 220 1 hire in IDOC? Direct that to the Commissioner. 2 DAVID DONAHUE: Yes, as a matter of fact, 3 because we have reentry. Felony conviction would 4 not be an element by which you wouldn't be 5 considered for eligibility. Obviously it depends on 6 the felon and the type of role he would play in our 7 organization. We wouldn't allow someone to possess 8 a handgun, if you will, a firearm, because of the 9 conviction, because that's against state law, but 10 they could perform a function that didn't require a 11 weapon. And we do have ex-offenders currently on 12 our payroll in the Department of Corrections. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Got to start with -- if 14 you won't hire him, who will? 15 DAVID DONAHUE: Be a little hypocritical. 16 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: In certain capacities? 17 DAVID DONAHUE: That's correct. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Now, Mr. Newlin, I 19 believe Mr. Brown earlier today fingered you and 20 Ms. Stout as the folks who would decide whether a 21 reportable incident rises to the level of a crime; 221 1 is that right? 2 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. What I would do 3 is, during the course of the investigation, if I had 4 obtained enough information or evidence to be able 5 to support the fact that either a crime had been 6 committed or there was a possibility of a crime, 7 then I would report that to her at that point in 8 time, and then we would be in consultation with 9 Indiana State Police at that point in time. I would 10 share information with them at that point in time. 11 They could either guide me or direct me on other 12 things I need to do, or they would assign an 13 investigator who would come in and assist in the 14 investigation. Or the case would be referred to the 15 Indiana State Police. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Which do they usually 17 do, of those options? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: Once I give them the 19 information that I have, and they will ask that 20 certain things be in place, and then they will just 21 assign an investigator or they will assign an 222 1 investigator and we can work those things out, you 2 know, if there's things to be looked at for their 3 investigation. So I would just be an agent to 4 assist them at that time. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Obviously, some 6 judgment is exercised on your part as to whether a 7 legal standard is being met by a set of facts in a 8 complaint; is that correct? 9 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Somebody has to make 11 that decision? 12 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. And thing of it 13 is, again, it's just a referral-type thing. Again, 14 the other part of it is, too, we refer to the 15 Indiana State Police, but our local prosecutor is 16 also very open to us giving him a phone call for 17 consultation on anything at any time. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So if in doubt you call 19 him? 20 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Have they ever sent 223 1 anything back to you and said, no, it would be a 2 little bit of over careful here, Jerry, this is not 3 a crime? 4 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So would you say that 6 you tend to err on, if in doubt, you send it up to 7 the ISP? 8 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir, always. Yes, 9 sir. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That's a good idea. 11 Now, among the other documents provided, just want 12 to make sure I understand. Exhibit 3 is a list of 13 the in-house investigations for calendar '06 of 14 staff-on-inmate sexual misconduct at Rockville. And 15 it includes three cases and a paragraph on each of 16 the cases. Do you have that? 17 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Did you investigate all 19 three of these? 20 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So you're familiar with 224 1 them? 2 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is there anything 4 inaccurate about the description of each? 5 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir, I don't believe 6 so. There may be some typos. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Did you type up the 8 synopses? 9 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: All right. 11 JERRY NEWLIN: Sometimes I look at it two 12 or three times but -- 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: What all did you -- so 14 you -- in the first one where offenders said they 15 observed a female offender standing naked in a 16 shower stall rubbing lotion on her body while a male 17 CO observed her, who -- Chief Investigator Willard 18 Plank. Who is he? 19 JERRY NEWLIN: Okay. That's the gentleman 20 we spoke of that is our CVSA, certified operator, 21 that I referred to before that. 225 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. 2 JERRY NEWLIN: And what had happened in 3 this situation here, we had a group of offenders 4 that alleged that one offender was standing in a 5 shower area and was naked from the waist up and 6 rubbing lotion on her body at that time. So it was 7 an alleged incident that was reported by the 8 offenders. Again, we looked into the situation. 9 The offender that was supposed to be the suspect 10 offender, in a sense, that was rubbing the lotion 11 and things on her body at that point in time denied 12 the allegation. The officer denied the allegation. 13 Due to the nature of the allegation, again the 14 seriousness of that, both were willing to take the 15 CVSA test. We took the CVSA test on the offender. 16 It confirmed that she had not done what had been 17 alleged by the other offenders, nor had she had any 18 inappropriate interaction with the officer. And the 19 case was unsubstantiated. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So you didn't give the 21 CVSA test to the officer? 226 1 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir. Once it was first 2 established by the offender that there were no 3 inappropriate allegations, then we didn't subject 4 the staff person to that. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And then -- by the way, 6 how arduous is the CVSA test? 7 JERRY NEWLIN: Depends on whether you talk 8 to the people in the polygraph field or the CVSA. I 9 believe there's documentation to support the fact 10 that it's 90 percent accurate. I think right now 11 there's close to 103, four agencies within the State 12 of Indiana law enforcement and those type agencies. 13 The military is using it as well. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I just mean -- 15 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: In duration. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How long does it take? 17 JERRY NEWLIN: Sorry. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How long does it take 19 to have the test done to you? 20 JERRY NEWLIN: By the time that you go in 21 and go through the process, I would say you could be 227 1 done in 45 minutes to an hour. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Exhibit 4 is a list of 3 three cases of inmate-on-inmate sexual assault 4 allegations. Did you prepare this document? 5 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And so you investigated 7 each of these three? 8 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And they are all 10 accurate synopses, assuming you typed it correctly? 11 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Are you aware of how 13 many -- are these the only three inmate-on-inmate 14 sexual assaults that occurred in calendar '06 in 15 Rockville? 16 JERRY NEWLIN: They are the only ones that 17 I investigated. Again, going back to the incidents 18 we have had that would be processed through the 19 adult disciplinary policy where they receive conduct 20 reports for, these were the only ones, yes, sir, 21 that I investigated at that time. 228 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Are you familiar with 2 this ASKA facility information form? 3 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: This? 5 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Well, I count at least 7 four inmate-on-inmate sexual assaults in calendar 8 '06, but there are only three mentioned and 9 summarized. And am I looking at the right place? 10 JERRY NEWLIN: I think there was -- 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Excuse me, Roman 3.3, 12 inmate-on-inmate sexual violence. And they are all 13 zeros in every month until January of '07. There's 14 not a single sexual -- inmate-on-inmate sexual 15 violence allegation reported here until January of 16 '07. So I'm trying to figure out which is wrong, 17 the three you reported on or -- so these are not so 18 reliable or what? 19 JERRY NEWLIN: No. That is correct, I had 20 failed to put another incident that was on my 21 summary here. So there was another incident. 229 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Can you tell me about 2 the fourth incident? 3 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: When did that occur? 5 JERRY NEWLIN: The fourth incident was a 6 situation that involved an offender who was in a 7 beauty shop, and she was sitting in another chair 8 and another offender ran in the beauty shop that 9 happened to be, again, it was in the offender 10 services building, who ran in at that point in time. 11 They had been girlfriends together, and one of them 12 was getting her hair done, the other one was on a 13 work assignment that was passing through the 14 building. She ran and grabbed and hugged and kissed 15 the girl while she was seated in the chair. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I think I read this 17 one. Sorry, when did you say that occurred? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: Well, I don't -- I may not 19 have that one with me, sir, sorry. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And so how did you 21 investigate that one? 230 1 JERRY NEWLIN: It was reported by the 2 offender who was seated in the chair who was the 3 so-called victim. And they had been a girlfriend, 4 quote, couple at that point in time. And they had 5 parted company at that point in time. And it was 6 referred, I believe that I got a note from the 7 offender because there were no staff that were 8 present during that period and point in time. And 9 through the investigation the girl who -- admitted 10 to running in and kissing her. Then when the 11 offender from the other -- the victim in a sense, 12 also admitted that they had had a relation and they 13 were girlfriends at that time. Then I filed a 14 conduct report on both of them for the sexual 15 proposals at that point in time, which is covered in 16 our adult disciplinary policy, because they both 17 openly admitted to being involved in a relationship. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So would you agree that 19 there are inmates in Rockville who have a 20 romantic -- a relationship with each other? 21 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 231 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: They might just be 2 holding hands, but they also may be having intimate 3 contact unbeknownst to the staff? 4 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Always a possibility? 6 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you think it 8 happens? 9 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you think -- who 11 would -- when are you going to hear about that, 12 unless it -- they break up, chances are you're not 13 going to hear about it, right? 14 JERRY NEWLIN: No, not necessarily. 15 Because there's -- sort of the silent majority, 16 those that it may offend, people that are housed in 17 the room with them as well, may become uncomfortable 18 with the situation. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Or maybe somebody is 20 jealous? 21 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, exactly. 232 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So they are going to 2 tell the CO that X and Y are together and -- 3 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, they can report that 4 to any staff person. The other thing that we have 5 now is in place, since September of 2007, is the 6 TIPS line. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yup. 8 JERRY NEWLIN: And that comes directly to 9 my office. And that is a very -- that's a very 10 unique system, I think, that it allows them to be 11 able to go to the telephone and be able to report 12 that as making a call. It is difficult at some 13 times for offenders maybe to approach me being an 14 internal affairs investigator and get labeled. So a 15 lot of times I have to be very discrete in how I try 16 to obtain my information. I may interview them, I 17 may borrow one of the doctor's room in the infirmary 18 at some point in time. Be as discrete as we can to 19 not place anybody in a situation that's going to 20 cause them any harm or any duress for reporting an 21 incident. So the TIPS line is something that's very 233 1 good. Mr. Koester also referred -- 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Before you go on. Let 3 me just ask you on the TIPS line. I asked this to 4 the Commissioner. Do you agree with him that it 5 might be worth thinking about eliminating the pin 6 number so that, yeah, you might get some crank 7 calls, but on the other hand you might get some 8 folks who otherwise would be too intimidated about 9 becoming a snitch? 10 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. The thing about 11 the TIPS line, I don't know that the offender 12 population is aware of how -- or the -- they are 13 aware their phone calls are monitored, but I don't 14 know that they are aware of the process in which 15 we can go through and identify those calls. And I 16 try not to make that a threatening thing, you know, 17 or a situation where they feel uncomfortable. A lot 18 of times I refer to them in receiving information or 19 whatever, that you may be able to use the TIPS line 20 or just give me a call on the TIPS line. The other 21 thing that it does by having that is -- and 234 1 identifying is, I can also look at maybe the 2 individuals that are reporting, the dorms it came 3 from, the location it came from, and give me a good 4 identifier for maybe problems that may be systematic 5 in one area of the facility. If I get three calls 6 out of dorm four regarding the same incident or 7 similar types situations that may be involved, then 8 that gives us some information to be able to look at 9 from a management standpoint that maybe we need to 10 look at addressing those types situations, concerns 11 they may have. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You've been around for 13 32 years. 14 JERRY NEWLIN: Thirty-four, 35. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Pushing 35. 16 JERRY NEWLIN: Yeah. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So you probably know 18 that facility better than anybody. Anybody been 19 there as long as you have? 20 JERRY NEWLIN: The Major. We started out 21 together as correctional officers. 235 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you think that it 2 would be helpful to have video cameras in more 3 places than you have right now? 4 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. The technology, 5 you know, that we have, I think anything that we can 6 obtain, and as things become available for the 7 safety of running the facility, for the whole 8 operation, for staff and everybody, yes, sir. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you have any reason 10 to believe, I'm speaking to you as the one and only 11 IA investigator at Rockville, that there is anything 12 inaccurate about the BJS survey? 13 JERRY NEWLIN: The only thing I think that 14 there's the -- I think there's an element of error 15 in any assessment tool that you go to. Do I feel 16 that it was to that magnitude? No, sir, I don't. 17 But, again, I look at those assessment tools, to me, 18 is almost like finding a piece of contraband at the 19 facility. I don't necessarily look at the 20 contraband as I look at where it came from, and then 21 what do we have to prevent that from happening 236 1 again. So I think with the two assessment tools we 2 do have, with your assessment tool and the one we 3 did, I think there's still things we can learn from 4 those assessment tools regardless. Whether we have 5 to look at ourself again. But to say that, you 6 know, things don't happen. I don't know what's 7 happening as we sit right here. The potential for 8 anything is to happen there. But I think we have to 9 put as many cost measures in, effective tools for us 10 to be able to utilize with, to work with to try to 11 keep it a safe environment. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: BJS survey indicates 13 that, after interviewing 169 of your inmates with a 14 response rate of 79 percent, that 117 of your 15 inmates, i.e., over 10 percent of your population, 16 experienced inmate-on-inmate sexual victimization, 17 almost half of them nonconsensual sexual acts, which 18 would constitute oral, anal and vaginal penetration, 19 hand jobs, and other completed sexual acts. And the 20 other half of those 117, 64 to be exact, would have 21 suffered abusive sexual contacts, which are defined 237 1 as allegations of unwanted sexual contacts between 2 inmates, including incidents that involve touching 3 only. Is it your testimony that you don't know that 4 there are that many that are experiencing that kind 5 of sexual victimization, inmate-on-inmate, but you 6 believe there is some of that going on? 7 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. The part as far 8 as -- sorry. The part as far as the rectal and 9 vaginal areas and those things there, which was 10 reported here, I can assure you we have had no 11 reported incidents of any such type situation. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Could you review for 13 us, what are all of the ways that an inmate at 14 Rockville in 2006 could have reported -- got the 15 word to you or to a nurse or somebody else that they 16 were being sexually abused? 17 JERRY NEWLIN: Basically, sir, it's just 18 walking up and reporting it to any employee that 19 would be on the inside of the facility. They could 20 send that through an inter-departmental note 21 directly to my office. 238 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Where do they get 2 those? 3 JERRY NEWLIN: That could be merely a note 4 on a piece of paper, walking to the officer's desk, 5 asking for an envelope, placing it in that envelope, 6 and putting my name on the outside of it and it's 7 routed to my office. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: If you got one of these 9 predators we talked about earlier, sticking hands 10 down your pants and moving up on you, rubbing up 11 against you when you're sitting down, and you're 12 petite in stature, as Mr. Brown was talking about 13 and so forth, you may be -- isn't it true that you 14 might be a little bit worried about being seen 15 walking up to a correctional officer and asking to 16 put a note in an envelope? Isn't the predator going 17 to say, hey, honey, what are you mailing? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: Yeah. There is always some 19 threat to that. But that's a pretty natural way for 20 them to communicate to anyone within the facility, 21 whether it would be -- it's a pretty normal type of 239 1 activity that could take place through the day. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: But if you're a 3 predator, you're going to be wanting to know? 4 JERRY NEWLIN: That's true. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Your 34 years of 6 experience -- 7 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: -- you're going to be 9 watching your girl real closely, aren't you? 10 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And if she is talking 12 ever with a correctional officer, if she is putting 13 anything in an envelope, if she is getting on the 14 TIPS line in a dorm setting, isn't the world going 15 to know that? 16 JERRY NEWLIN: Not necessarily. There's 17 still avenues, you know. I mean the communication 18 with our offenders -- I mean we have officers that 19 are stationed in there, counselor officers are 20 located within the dormitories, unit team managers 21 are within the dormitory, supervisors are making 240 1 their rounds on a normal daily basis. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That's the point. They 3 are all uniformed officers. 4 PAM FERGUSON: You can -- we have lots of 5 teachers, in a whole different building. We've got 6 the parenting center with instructors in there in a 7 whole different building. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Where is that, the 9 parenting center? 10 PAM FERGUSON: The parenting center is 11 across from the OSB. It's called The Hope Center. 12 It's across from the offender services building. 13 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: What is it? 14 PAM FERGUSON: It's a center where you 15 teach parenting classes. And we have a counselor in 16 there and the offenders sign up for classes. They 17 can have special visits with their children there 18 instead of in the regular visiting center. But we 19 also have instructors that come in the evening. All 20 of our volunteers have all been trained about PREA, 21 and they come in the evenings, whether it's a Bible 241 1 study group, any religious -- any religious group. 2 All of our volunteers that come in teaching, we have 3 over 207 in there, that come into our facility, they 4 are all trained in PREA. When I was community 5 service director, they have a pretty close 6 relationship with the offender in there in talking 7 in their Bible study groups and a pretty good method 8 of confidentiality going between the two. If any of 9 those people would walk up to any of our volunteers, 10 or ISU teachers, Oakland city teachers, any of them, 11 IV tech teachers, they have all been trained, I mean 12 they would be there to help. I mean that's another 13 avenue away from the dorm that you were talking 14 about. 15 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: What if an offender 16 discusses her concerns with her family members? Do 17 you have an avenue to allow parents or family 18 members to give you a call and say, listen -- 19 JERRY NEWLIN: They do call and can call 20 directly to me. If an offender calls their family, 21 they will know at that time or they will just refer 242 1 the call to the superintendent's office. Or if it 2 comes in, they know I'm the investigator and they 3 can refer a call to me and I do take those calls 4 from concerned citizens, from parents. 5 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Follow-up on them. 6 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, ma'am. The other form 7 of communication that we have inside is just where 8 we stand mainline, when you were talking about 9 uniform personnel. So there are an accompaniment of 10 people there every day at noon, at meal times. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Dining hall. Do they 12 dine in dorm or at the meal hall? 13 JERRY NEWLIN: In the dining hall. 14 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: In the dining hall. 15 Every one. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Mainline, which of the 17 executive staff there? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: All of them. 19 DAVID DONAHUE: If I may, for the panel's 20 benefit, again, staff are doing a phenomenal job, 21 but to be very candid, they are not being as free 243 1 flowing with their accessibility in this 2 institution. Again, I measure this group to any 3 correctional facility in the country. Your 4 characterization of predator I think is a little 5 over-candid. Because when these folks see a 6 predatorial environment, they are going to interrupt 7 that behavior. The ability for a campus style 8 promotes phenomenal access to a variety of avenues 9 for offenders to find a place that they feel most 10 confident in communicating. Whether it's medical, 11 the chaplain, the academic staff, the yard officers. 12 Every offender there is engaged in a program 13 activity. This is a medium-security institution. 14 One hundred percent of the population in this 15 institution is going home. This is not guys that 16 are never getting out of jail. As a result, it's a 17 very nurtured institution, a very cultural climate, 18 a positive promotional opportunity. So, again, I 19 know the staff are obviously sitting here trying to 20 be very forthright with you, but I don't think they 21 are telling their story accurately. 244 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: They're being modest. 2 DAVID DONAHUE: Because they are very 3 candid about making sure that they are accessible to 4 that population. The external resources available 5 to the offender is significant, i.e., the TIPS line, 6 correspondence literally to my office. And we have 7 had incidents. Your reference to the investigative 8 document earlier. One of those cases was prompted 9 because of a piece of correspondence I received in 10 my headquarters. Again, it gives you the ability to 11 understand how accessible staff are on this 12 facility. I just wanted to go on the record and 13 give staff the credit. 14 JERRY NEWLIN: The other thing we do too 15 as well, what we have now is the JPay, Mr. Koester 16 spoke of, the opportunities and things that are 17 available. But we monitor all income and outgoing 18 mail at the facility. If we ever see anything 19 that's in a letter of correspondence that may refer 20 to an offender having any problems, the staff will 21 also refer that up through me. One of the things 245 1 that we have just recently seen in the electronic 2 mail was that one of the offenders in the intake 3 unit, as indicated, she feels that she is being 4 sexually harassed in some sense by one of the male 5 officers. I don't know the detail of that yet, but 6 by that piece of correspondence I will follow up on 7 that to see to the extent of what that situation is. 8 RANDY KOESTER: If I could also add. 9 There was also a change in law in 2003 that created 10 a Department of Corrections ombudsman bureau. You 11 had asked if there was an offender advocate. That 12 would be the DOC ombudsman. She and her staff 13 operate out of the Department of Administration, the 14 ombudsman bureau. We have forms at all our 15 facilities. And she can receive -- the bureau can 16 receive forms from any source, it doesn't have to be 17 the form that DOC has. They have online and then 18 they can get it from any family or anybody with any 19 information regarding a violation of policy. In 20 particular, the statute reads, any risk of danger to 21 offenders. So she can really -- she has carte 246 1 blanche to the facility and the policies. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: She is not in the DOC. 3 RANDY KOESTER: She is not. She's in 4 Department of Administration. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So she -- the 6 Commissioner doesn't sign her paycheck. 7 RANDY KOESTER: He does not. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: She should feel free to 9 see where the trail leads? 10 RANDY KOESTER: And she does visit -- she 11 has visited each of our facilities. She has visited 12 Rockville several times. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Ms. Smith, we heard 14 about the waiting list to get into ad seg, and you 15 were vigorously nodding your head. But I want to 16 give you a chance to say it on the record. How many 17 more beds do you need in an ad seg to put everybody 18 there that you think ought to be there? 19 FRAN SMITH: We initially asked for 60 20 beds. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Sixty. 247 1 FRAN SMITH: For this facility -- sorry, 2 we initially asked for 60 beds when they did the 3 remodeling of this facility, and we ended up with 24 4 because of monetary restraints. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So your answer is you 6 would like those 60 beds? 7 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And do you think you 9 could fill them tomorrow if you had them? 10 FRAN SMITH: Without a doubt. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Why is that? Is 12 Ms. Ferguson or Mr. Newlin kind of trigger-happy 13 with labeling these folks predators, or is it just 14 you got some folks that are discipline problems? 15 FRAN SMITH: First of all, when you get 16 someone in that has past assaultive behavior, we 17 have no means of separating that individual from the 18 open population, especially until you see the 19 behavior they are going to display in our 20 environment. Because we have offenders when they 21 first came in, they were very assaultive. They 248 1 preyed on other offenders, commissary, whatever 2 favors. Over the years they have mellowed out. 3 They finally got the message, I want to get out. To 4 get out I need to behave. They do change. In the 5 beginning, you have those individuals that it would 6 be a benefit to our facility if we could put them in 7 an individual cell until we see what kind of 8 behavior it's going to be. You have disciplinary 9 stay there, people that have committed batteries, 10 that have intimidated staff, have intimidated -- I 11 shouldn't say that, intimidated other offenders for 12 commissary favors. Those individuals receive a 13 conduct report. We utilize most of our beds in 14 segregation for those individuals that we feel are a 15 threat to our population. We also from time to time 16 have individuals that are in there for suicide 17 watch. Then you have PCs down there also, which is 18 protective custody, which are individuals that 19 request on their own to be put in protective custody 20 away from the open population. And then you have 21 AS, someone pending an investigation. I mean -- 249 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is that administrative 2 segregation, AS? 3 FRAN SMITH: AS is administrative 4 segregation, yes. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You got a whole lot of 6 categories of folks who fill up those 24 beds. 7 FRAN SMITH: Yes, because it's the only 8 place physically on the facility that have 9 individual rooms or cells where we can protect those 10 individuals. All the other housing is in a 11 dormitory setting. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Four of the 24 have 13 video cameras? 14 FRAN SMITH: Yes, sir. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That's where you put 16 the suicide watches? 17 FRAN SMITH: Yes, sir. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And what is your 19 understanding of the protocol if there's an 20 allegation of sexual abuse, inmate-on-inmate, where 21 does the alleged predator go and where does the 250 1 alleged victim go? 2 FRAN SMITH: Well, that depends. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You just mentioned 4 protective custody, so I imagine that both of them 5 could end up in two of the cells in ad seg; is that 6 right? 7 FRAN SMITH: They would be ad seg, you 8 would think so. Sometimes they don't say who their 9 predator is, we just think someone. We see someone 10 with a black eye so you're going to investigate 11 that, you're going to put them in administrative seg 12 until you investigate it. Sometimes we don't know 13 who is telling the truth, and both the predator and 14 the victim would be put in segregation, AS, until we 15 find out -- until our IA completes their 16 investigation. And it's based on safety. You don't 17 know who's telling the truth. You know, if you have 18 two offenders, one with a black eye and someone with 19 scratches, you don't know who told the truth. You 20 put both in there for their safety. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: We saw the earlier 251 1 references in Mr. Brown's memos on the PREA 2 committee, monthly PREA committee meetings, to 3 reference to girlfriends that were now listed as 4 predators. 5 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: One memo there were 7 five of them listed. As to -- when an inmate is 8 labeled or determined by staff to be a sexual 9 predator, is she moved or is the victim moved or 10 does it depend on the case? 11 FRAN SMITH: Depends on the case. The 12 problem being if you have a sexual predator, she may 13 have had more than one victim, okay. We only have 14 actually three open housing units now to place 15 offenders. So when we look at our Image Axis, which 16 we use to identify other victims that this person 17 may have had, the predator may have had, we have to 18 be careful. If that person has been in every dorm 19 as a victim, or as a predator I should say, we're 20 going to move the victim because it's more logical. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Sure. You said that 252 1 there are just three open housing dorms. Earlier we 2 heard that there were four dorms with 272 each. 3 FRAN SMITH: We have one unit which is a 4 CLIFF program. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is the which? 6 PAM FERGUSON: It's a CLIFF program, Clean 7 Living Is Freedom Forever. It's for methamphetamine 8 users. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Got it. That has 100 10 in it, right? 11 FRAN SMITH: That's 100. And we have dorm 12 two, that's 272, but that's an intake unit only. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Got it. 14 FRAN SMITH: Dorm three, four and five are 15 open housing; however, dorm three holds our PLUS 16 program, which is approximately 100 offenders. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That's a faith-based 18 and character-based pre-release program? 19 FRAN SMITH: Yes, it is. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And that's 100. 21 FRAN SMITH: One hundred. Dorm three. 253 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Dorm three. What else? 2 FRAN SMITH: That leaves us with dorm four 3 and five. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Dorm three is -- 5 FRAN SMITH: No, part of three. The other 6 part of three is open population. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And how many non-PLUS 8 people do you have in dorm three? 9 FRAN SMITH: One hundred seventy-two. If 10 all the dorms are full. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: All right. 12 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: It sounds like the 13 offenders are kept very busy with special programs. 14 Do you have the impact of crime program coming in, 15 somebody coming in to talk about the impact of 16 crime? 17 PAM FERGUSON: Not at Rockville. 18 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: This isn't happening. 19 Ms. Smith, what was your reaction to this report? I 20 know you are familiar with it. 21 FRAN SMITH: Actually, I was really 254 1 disappointed. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Talking about for the 3 record the BJS report. 4 FRAN SMITH: I'm disappointed. We have an 5 open door policy. My office is in a dorm. I think 6 it should be, because you can't supervise people if 7 you're not there. I've had a lot of offenders over 8 the years approach me and say, you know, this is 9 going on. And I've always did the right thing. So 10 you have to build integrity for your staff and 11 offenders to come talk to you. I'm disappointed. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You believe you have a 13 problem with inmate-on-inmate sexual activity? 14 FRAN SMITH: I think there's a potential 15 there always, okay. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You think somebody is 17 acting on that potential? In other words, you have 18 a problem? 19 FRAN SMITH: Yes, I don't know they are 20 acting on it, no one has reported it to me, which I 21 find surprising because over the years they have 255 1 from time to time. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: When is the last time 3 somebody reported to you that they were being 4 sexually abused, sexually assaulted, harassed? 5 Anything that would violate the -- what is now the 6 2005 SAP policy? 7 FRAN SMITH: The last time it was a 8 staff-on-offender, not offender-on-offender. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who came to you, the 10 inmate? 11 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And when was that? 13 FRAN SMITH: Probably, I think it was like 14 2004. It's been a while. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So it's been maybe as 16 much as four years since you last got somebody to 17 actually volunteer that they had been the victim of 18 some sexual abuse? 19 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And does the staff talk 21 about, you know, their jobs, their interactions, 256 1 what's going down in your dorm: let me tell you, 2 you got to hear this story about so and so in the 3 beauty stop and plants one right on her and 4 everything hits the fan? I mean do you talk 5 about -- with one another about the -- some of the 6 things described in this grievance? 7 FRAN SMITH: Do we talk amongst staff, 8 among ourselves? 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Among staff? 10 FRAN SMITH: Yes, we do. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: About what your 12 day-to-day life looks like? 13 FRAN SMITH: Yes, we do. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: In the course of that 15 discussion do you hear stories about girlfriend 16 problems such as were discussed by Mr. Brown in his 17 PREA memo? 18 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And is there discussion 20 about, well, these two we don't know what's going on 21 in the bathroom, in the laundry room with those two? 257 1 But I mean that kind of joking or that kind of 2 stories, true or not? 3 FRAN SMITH: I don't know that it's 4 joking. I think the staff takes it seriously. We 5 have -- girlfriends create special problems in a 6 prison. Because most of the time those individuals 7 are very immature, okay. They function at that 8 adolescent level where they may just be friends to 9 start out with because they are looking for somebody 10 to connect with because it may be their first time 11 in prison, okay, and it's hard for them. They will 12 start out as friends. But they function on that 13 adolescent level of, you're my friend, you can't be 14 walking down the sidewalk with her. That creates 15 problems. It's jealousy problems. We also have 16 offenders that, once they have been friends for a 17 long period of time, it may develop into something 18 sexual. They may have a falling out and it's almost 19 like they have a domestic disturbance dispute. So 20 that creates special problems for us that we have to 21 deal with. I hear that a lot in my dorm. The 258 1 offenders discuss that with me quite willing, that 2 my girlfriend and I are on the outs and I can't be 3 living in this dorm any more, I got to go somewhere 4 else. It becomes a management issue for staff, 5 manage them so that everybody is safe. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Mr. Newlin, the BJS 7 study concludes that the single most common profile 8 of sexual victimization at your institution is that 9 the -- for inmate-on-inmate victims, it happens in 10 the afternoon, it happens in an inmate's cell, room 11 or sleeping area. And the coercive tactics used 12 were either persuasion or physically being held down 13 or restrained or physically harmed or injured. And 14 that it was homosexual in nature. And that the 15 victim was afraid or -- the reason why the victim 16 did not report it is because she was afraid or 17 scared of the inmates involved. That's the single 18 most -- the set of single most prevalent scenarios 19 that the inmates, if they are being honest, 20 described as when they get sexually victimized. The 21 staff-on-inmate incidents are described as the staff 259 1 predator is -- the incident happened in a shower or 2 bathroom. I think we heard about bathrooms earlier. 3 In a closet, office or other locked room. 4 Mechanical room in the laundry room. That they were 5 given a bribe or blackmail was the coercion used. 6 They were not injured. The perpetrator was a male. 7 And they didn't report it because they were afraid 8 or scared of being punished by staff and they were 9 equally embarrassed or ashamed that it happened. 10 That was a tie. In your 34 years of experience at 11 Rockville, given the fact you said that you believe 12 this sort of thing happens, though maybe not to this 13 extent, does that profile seem wrong or is that 14 plausible to you? Start with the inmate-on-inmate. 15 JERRY NEWLIN: Okay. Our dormitories are 16 designed in a panoramic-type atmosphere where -- 17 with two tiers and the officer can stand and look 18 into any location. So I can go to the middle of 19 that day room and stand and I can look in and 20 everything is open cage, we don't have any barriers 21 there or anything else. If those situations happen, 260 1 they would be in situations to where offenders, 2 other offenders, and they use the term blocking, may 3 have stood watch because they can see the officer 4 leave the desk, and it may just be enough with me 5 leaning up against the wall and tapping the cage to 6 let somebody know. So it would be something done 7 covertly. The areas which they identify there, 8 those are only areas that are still in that 9 panoramic view that are inside of that dormitory 10 that would allow any areas of isolation. So I can 11 see -- 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So that makes sense. 13 JERRY NEWLIN: That makes sense. I mean 14 that part of it makes sense. To what magnitude, and 15 again with -- go along with what Fran was saying, 16 for someone not to report that, you know, as many as 17 avenues or as much communication as we have with the 18 offenders, I don't know that it would be to that 19 magnitude. Do willing couples block for each other? 20 Yes. And that's a task of us and the officers and 21 everybody else monitoring. When we do our 261 1 walk-throughs as referred to in the minutes and we 2 hear of those things and we know of those things, 3 and the cameras that you spoke of, those are the 4 innovative things that we're looking at to try to 5 continue to, you know, pronounce to where maybe 6 we can see into those places and things to continue 7 to address those issues. But the potential is 8 there. For someone to say that they were forcefully 9 held down, I mean in talking in my voice right here 10 that I'm speaking in now, I can talk to someone on 11 the second range or I can look right into that room 12 from right there. For someone to be forcefully held 13 down, not to make any resistance at all, seems very 14 unlikely for me for something like that to happen in 15 the middle of the afternoon. Because in the middle 16 of the afternoon you're also looking at those people 17 being out on job assignments, you're looking at them 18 being at school, you're looking at them being in 19 programs, you're looking at those folks being 20 assigned to PEN Products, to maintenance, to the 21 warehouse. So the least number of offenders is 262 1 going to be in that dormitory at that time, which is 2 less sets of eyes for something to happen if two 3 offenders want to do something together. But to 4 forcibly do something with someone, again, you know, 5 I would -- I'm not going to say it couldn't happen, 6 but I'm saying the likelihood of it happening is 7 not -- 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: As everybody has 9 testified, that's still sexual assault? 10 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: No such thing as 12 consensual inmate-on-inmate activity? 13 JERRY NEWLIN: Right. The thing I'm 14 saying is two -- let me back up. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You're questioning the 16 physical restraint or physical -- 17 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. And two consensual 18 people, two offenders that maybe consensually want 19 to do that, the potential is there for other 20 offenders there to block. And, again, I'll go back 21 to the zero tolerance for that on that issue. 263 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And remind me where the 2 cameras are. Are there any cameras in dorms three, 3 four, five? 4 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How about the PLUS 6 unit? 7 JERRY NEWLIN: We do have in place now, I 8 think there is an evaluation process going on to 9 install cameras, the superintendent may want to 10 speak to that at this point in time. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You guys are ahead of 12 the curve on knowing where the at-risk blind spots 13 are. I mean there are other systems that we're 14 aware of that don't think they have any blind spots, 15 wouldn't know where to put a camera. 16 JERRY NEWLIN: It's an ongoing assessment 17 tool. Again, I'll refer back to what I said 18 earlier, it's like finding a piece of contraband 19 inside the facility. We look at where it came from. 20 So if we have a problem, wherever we have it, and 21 when we're doing walk-throughs or doing rounds or if 264 1 we have an incident, we continue to try to just make 2 it an ongoing needs assessment in a sense and try to 3 look at ways we can improve the operation of the 4 facility and safety of the facility itself. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Then what about the 6 scenario that the BJS survey describes for 7 staff-on-inmate incidents happening in a shower or 8 bathroom, in a closet, office or other locked room? 9 Does that sound plausible? 10 JERRY NEWLIN: Those are the only areas in 11 the those dormitories, sir, that again are isolated. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: By the way, I should 13 have mentioned that for the staff-on-inmate, they 14 are saying it happens between midnight and 6:00. 15 That was the most frequent profile. Sorry, I 16 interrupted you. 17 JERRY NEWLIN: That's okay. Again, those 18 are the areas we would look at in the facility to 19 where there's even any potential for isolation. 20 There are midnight porters -- we're cleaning seven 21 days a week, 24 hours a day, so there's staff that 265 1 are moving throughout during those times. There's 2 midnight porters that are moving around during those 3 times. There's interaction with cooks and everybody 4 else at those times. So if we had areas of where it 5 would occur, yes, those would be the areas that I 6 would say we would identify in looking at that. But 7 the assessment tool I would question some. 8 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Isn't there an 9 alternative to having midnight porters, to having 10 women out at those hours performing work duties? 11 What would be the alternative for that? 12 JERRY NEWLIN: Well, I don't know, ma'am. 13 I guess in my 34 years we have always had midnight 14 porters. The thing of it is is it's just due to the 15 surroundings, due to the number of people that are 16 there for, and for health and safety reasons. When 17 everybody is down, there's areas of responsibilities 18 in cleaning and those types of things that need to 19 take place. I mean -- and we have got porters 20 cleaning seven days a week around the clock. 21 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: I realize someone has 266 1 to perform those duties, but it just seems that 2 pulling offenders out in the middle of the night for 3 duties -- 4 DAVID DONAHUE: If I could speak to 5 Commissioner mandate. Not a facility issue. 6 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Please to hear from 7 you. 8 DAVID DONAHUE: We're a 24-hour a day, 9 seven-day a week business. It's a normal process in 10 corrections to have a vibrant facility maintained 11 appropriately. So I don't think it's out of 12 consideration to allow folks who want to be engaged 13 in events. Every offender is encouraged to have a 14 job assignment. We don't mandate individual working 15 in our system. We encourage them to do so to 16 develop appropriate habits so when they go back into 17 communities they understand a work ethic. Remember, 18 a lot of our offenders have never had a job, never 19 been evaluated, so it's my requirement of our agency 20 that we promote a very healthy environment 24 hours 21 a day, seven days a week for public safety in 267 1 Indiana. And we don't go to sleep at night, so 2 those offenders who want to work at night, we 3 encourage them to do that. Thank you. 4 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Thank you. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Ms. Ferguson, are you 6 the person most familiar with the sexual violence 7 assessment tool? 8 PAM FERGUSON: Well, I'm familiar with it 9 but I'm not the intake classification supervisor. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who is that? 11 PAM FERGUSON: Mr. Manson. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And he's not here? 13 PAM FERGUSON: Correct. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So he is the only 15 person who can speak authoritatively to what the new 16 inmates are given in way of orientation? 17 PAM FERGUSON: Correct. He does the 18 orientation, he's responsible for that. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you ever sit in on 20 that? 21 PAM FERGUSON: On his orientation? 268 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yeah. 2 PAM FERGUSON: I did a long time ago but 3 not his most recent one. When we first took over 4 the unit, I was responsible until we hired a new 5 classification supervisor. So it's been quite a 6 while. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: If I was to tell you 8 that your paperwork indicates that the number of 9 inmates that come through intake is more than the 10 number of inmates that are given orientation 11 documentation, any of you -- anybody ever hear that 12 you kind of run out of papers and brochures 13 sometimes? I mean, some cases 60, 70 out of 220 in 14 an intake class for a month, if you have multiple 15 classes, are listed on your stuff as not having 16 them. Any of you know about that? 17 RANDY KOESTER: I might be able to shed 18 some light on that. The intake unit is actually the 19 intake unit for the entire department of 20 corrections. They receive all adult female 21 offenders. 269 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: For anybody going into 2 IDOC? 3 RANDY KOESTER: Yes. If you're adult and 4 you're female, you're going to go to Rockville. Now 5 that's actually a change. That happened in the last 6 four or five months. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Only women. 8 RANDY KOESTER: Only women at Rockville. 9 Now, when they get transferred we have three other 10 female institutions they can get transferred to and 11 then they will go through institutional orientation 12 at those sites. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: But where do they get 14 the PREA stuff? 15 RANDY KOESTER: They will get the PREA at 16 those sites as well. I'm sure they get some PREA at 17 Rockville. But they will -- we've got documentation 18 at all sites. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: We don't know what they 20 get at Rockville because Mr. Manson is not here; is 21 that right? Any of you have any idea what all the 270 1 women offenders who come through there, whether they 2 are going to stop at Rockville or not, get in the 3 way of information about sexual assault and their 4 rights? Yes, Lieutenant. 5 PAM FERGUSON: We do have an orientation. 6 Are you saying getting signed document receipts? I 7 don't know what you're looking at. 8 LIEUTENANT LAWSON: When the intake would 9 come in, it would be night shift's responsibility to 10 give them the orientation and pass out all the 11 paperwork. And then the counselor took it over on 12 day shift so it would be more consistent since we 13 have two night shifts. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Thank you, Lieutenant. 15 Do any of you know anything about why in -- why your 16 ASKA facility information forms or counts indicate 17 that, for example, in October of 2007, five months 18 ago, a number of inmates received into the custody 19 of the agency at a DOC facility during a given 20 month, and this given facility is Rockville, 222; 21 number of inmates provided written documentation 271 1 regulating inmate life during the intake process, 2 165. If my math is right, there's 57 out of 222 3 that didn't get the written documentation about 4 inmates. And I would assume that would include this 5 rather important information about sexual assault. 6 PAM FERGUSON: Some of it I can't account 7 for, but if we have a pregnant female come into the 8 facility, we count her as an intake and we go ahead 9 and process her within that same day. She does not 10 stay at our facility because we're such a rural -- 11 we transfer her to Indianapolis right then. And, 12 see, we just started in September as the official 13 intake unit. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That was the first 15 month. 16 PAM FERGUSON: Yes. And we received 17 several that were pregnant and some whose sentences 18 weren't correct or they were like a turnover within 19 a day or two so we sent them back out. But we had 20 just started in September. 21 FRAN SMITH: Ideally, the orientation 272 1 process is completed within 45 days. In the 2 beginning, it was longer than that trying to get 3 organized and work out the bugs in orientation. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Ms. Smith, I'm showing 5 you the manual of policies and procedures, procedure 6 number 02-04-102. It's an 11-page document, 7 effective January 2, 2001. It's entitled the Use 8 and Operation of Adult Offender Disciplinary 9 Segregation Units. Have you ever seen that document 10 before? 11 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You still use it? 13 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is that kind of the 15 bible of ad seg? 16 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: All right. And you 18 also produced the state form 39588R2 19 segregation/confinement report. Is that a form you 20 use? 21 FRAN SMITH: Yes, cannot be admitted to 273 1 segregation for any reason without the form. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: They don't get in there 3 without this form. 4 FRAN SMITH: No, sir. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And finally, DOC 6 manual, operational procedure. This is RTC 7 operational procedure, not necessarily for the whole 8 department. Dated October 15, 2002, entitled the 9 Use and Operation of Adult Offender Disciplinary 10 Segregation Units. Have you ever seen that 11 document? 12 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Does that also dictate 14 how you run your ad seg? 15 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I had one last question 17 about midnight porters. Here we go. Would you 18 mind, I've forgotten who was most knowledgeable 19 about these. Would you mind looking at March 9, 20 '06. Log I.D. 9457. 21 JERRY NEWLIN: March 9, '06. 274 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yes, sir. 2 JERRY NEWLIN: What was the number again? 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: 9457. 4 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: All right. The 6 description is she worked -- she being the offender, 7 worked as a midnight porter for four hours extra 8 duty. That same day the officer wanted her to work 9 more extra duty. Relief sought is blank. Response, 10 Ms. Clauser -- I assume that's the name of the 11 offender -- the hours that you stated that you 12 worked as a midnight porter on March 9, '06 were 13 never logged. There's no proof as to the hours you 14 said you worked. Therefore, correctional officer so 15 and so did not violate any of the rules regarding 16 extra duty. Are you familiar with this particular 17 incident? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir, I'm not. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is it -- I think you 20 testified as long as you've been there, and you've 21 been there 34 years, there is some inmates, female 275 1 inmates, who have worked as midnight porters. 2 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And what do they do, 4 sweep the floors. 5 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. They will clean, you 6 know, clean all -- well not all there is in the 7 institution. We have a visitation center they clean 8 up, they have the administration buildings, as well 9 as they will assume duties in the dormitories as 10 midnight porters cleaning the bathrooms thoroughly 11 and the day rooms and those kind of areas. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Cleaning the bathrooms? 13 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, sir. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And who would be with 15 them? 16 JERRY NEWLIN: Correctional staff. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How many? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: Could be one, could be two, 19 usually three officers that are assigned. There's a 20 side officer. When we approach the dorms, you'll 21 have, say dorm 4, there will be two sides of that 276 1 dormitory, right side and left side. There will be 2 an officer assigned to each side of that dorm, as 3 well as a desk officer will be there. And there 4 will be a housing sergeant that would also be 5 supervising there, as well as Lieutenant Lawson 6 would be on that shift. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Midnight shift would be 8 Lieutenant Lawson? 9 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes. Directly supervising 10 them would be a correctional officer. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: She can't be in all 12 four dorms simultaneously? 13 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So we're talking about 15 in every dorm there is a porter between midnight and 16 6:00 who is cleaning the bathrooms, I assume opening 17 the closets, getting cleaning materials out of the 18 closet? 19 JERRY NEWLIN: The officers will be there 20 to accommodate them for those type of things. And 21 there will be more than one offender. 277 1 PAM FERGUSON: It's not just one midnight 2 porter. On each side they will have four. And 3 there's really five assigned. It will be somebody's 4 night off as they work through their rotation. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Will there be four in 6 each dorm? 7 PAM FERGUSON: On each side. So there's 8 eight altogether. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Eight in each dorm 10 cleaning. And you got a total of three officers in 11 each dorm during that shift. And a fourth if 12 Lieutenant Lawson -- 13 PAM FERGUSON: Or sergeants are also on 14 duty. Not just the lieutenant, the captain and the 15 sergeants. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: When does the laundry 17 room get cleaned? 18 PAM FERGUSON: Up at the laundry building. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: The laundry building. 20 PAM FERGUSON: The laundry building. They 21 mop their own floors up there. 278 1 JERRY NEWLIN: That's done from 8:00 a.m. 2 to 4:30 p.m. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: The midnight crews are 4 not in the laundry room. 5 PAM FERGUSON: No. They are not in The 6 Hope Center, they are not in the laundry room. They 7 do the visiting center. And then we have some that 8 have outside clearance, then they clean the admin 9 building, administration building. Those have 10 outside clearance. 11 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Culinary? 12 PAM FERGUSON: They clean the OSB, 13 offender services building, and our culinary 14 building is in there. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who is they? 16 PAM FERGUSON: They would be offenders. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do offenders clean the 18 kitchen as well? 19 PAM FERGUSON: They do that during the 20 daylight hours, they don't do that at night. 21 JERRY NEWLIN: And I know there was 279 1 earlier discussion concerning the laundry and the 2 mechanical room, laundry and those areas, and we 3 have never had any reported incidents nor have we 4 ever had any allegations made of that area. The 5 laundry workers are primarily assigned there to the 6 daytime at that time. If that area would be entered 7 after hours when the normal crews would be gone, 8 then like Lieutenant Lawson stated, in order for the 9 key to be checked out, the supervisor would have to 10 check that key out. And normally if there was times 11 in, there's also two people who would be going into 12 some of those areas if they were considered 13 classified areas of the facility. Sort of a two-man 14 entry type thing, you're responsible for me and I'm 15 responsible for you. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How about the rec 17 building, when is that cleaned? 18 JERRY NEWLIN: The rec building is cleaned 19 during the times that the rec staff are there. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: When are those? 21 JERRY NEWLIN: Well, the recreation 280 1 building opens at 8:00 o'clock in the morning and 2 closes at 9:30 at night and it's cleaned during the 3 day, between 8:00 and 4:00. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So nobody ought to be 5 in there between 9:30 p.m. and 8:00 a.m. 6 JERRY NEWLIN: No, sir. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who has access to it? 8 JERRY NEWLIN: The building is secured 9 when the recreation staff leaves. There would be a 10 set of keys to it in the master control room. And 11 in order for those keys to be checked out after 12 hours, you would have to take the authorization of 13 the supervisor that would be on duty to authorize 14 those keys to be checked out. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Would that be 16 Lieutenant Lawson? 17 JERRY NEWLIN: Yes, they could be 18 Lieutenant Lawson or a Captain, yes. Could be a 19 Lieutenant or a Captain. Shift supervisor would be 20 in charge of the custody and operation of that. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Lawson, I'm sorry. Who 281 1 would -- who would be most familiar with attempted 2 suicides at Rockville? Probably -- would it be you, 3 Ms. Smith? 4 FRAN SMITH: It could. Depends on where 5 it happened. If it happened in the dorms or in 6 the -- maybe possibly one of them happened in a 7 segregation unit or shower unit. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: The shower unit of the 9 ad seg building? 10 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And does that happen a 12 lot? 13 FRAN SMITH: No, it doesn't. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I guess it depends on 15 how you define a lot. 16 FRAN SMITH: Yes. And now we don't issue 17 them razors or anything any more when they go to the 18 segregation unit to be on the safe side. 19 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: You don't issue 20 razors. 21 FRAN SMITH: All their hygiene items are 282 1 kept in a locker. We issue them as they take a 2 shower now. And there's staff available there at 3 the time when they are taking the shower. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Going through the -- 5 the ASKA facility log, it lists attempted suicides. 6 Are you familiar with this document, Ms. Smith? 7 FRAN SMITH: Not sure. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: It's section Roman 9 Numeral 3.8 of each month's facility report. They 10 list the number of inmate suicides during the month 11 and number of inmate-attempted suicides during the 12 month. Did you ever see that document? 13 FRAN SMITH: No, this is the one -- 14 Ms. Deed does that -- in charge of that. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who is in charge of 16 preparing this? 17 FRAN SMITH: Ms. Deed. 18 PAM FERGUSON: She collects the data from 19 different departments and puts it together. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who would put together 21 the data on attempted suicides for this report? 283 1 CHERYL BENNETT: That comes from the 2 mental health section. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Mental health. And 4 that's Ms. Deeds. 5 CHERYL BENNETT: Mental health 6 professional, psychologist would get back together. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Would you come on 8 forward here, Ms. Bennett? 9 CHERYL BENNETT: The mental health people 10 would send that document forward to Ms. Deeds. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And who in the mental 12 health -- 13 CHERYL BENNETT: The psychologist 14 generally puts that together. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who is that? 16 CHERYL BENNETT: Right now we have Doctor 17 Traheo. Before that it was Doctor Singular. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That's right. If 19 you'll bear with me. I note that on May 31 of '06 20 there was one attempted suicide. In July of 2006 21 there were four attempted suicides just at 284 1 Rockville. In September, two months later, another 2 four attempted suicides. October, the next month, 3 three attempted suicides. None in November. None 4 in December. One in April of last year. None in 5 May. One in August of last year. None in October, 6 nor November, or December. Does that seem like a 7 normal amount of attempted suicides in your 8 experience, Ms. Smith? 9 FRAN SMITH: It seems high. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: What's that, seems 11 high? 12 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Like in calendar '06, I 14 mean I didn't do the math, but you had four and one 15 and one and three. What's been your typical 16 experience over -- how many years have you been -- 17 FRAN SMITH: Twenty-two. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Twenty-two. Among 19 women inmates, how many attempted suicides would you 20 expect in a year? 21 FRAN SMITH: Actual attempts, probably no 285 1 more than four or five for the year. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. So four in a 3 month is exceptional. 4 FRAN SMITH: I think so. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Ms. Bennett, from all 6 of your medical experience. 7 CHERYL BENNETT: Well, the research shows 8 that, even in a regular population, attempts are 9 higher among women than men, but men tend to be more 10 successful than women because they use more violent 11 means. To me -- to me, I think you said, probably 12 over that year that you quoted, maybe 12 to 13. My 13 math, I didn't count them, add them as you were 14 going. To me that doesn't seem like a very high 15 number because I come from a mental health 16 background in the jails where of course I saw a 17 higher number of attempts. So to me that doesn't 18 seem like an exceptional amount. She has been at 19 Rockville longer so that may be a high number to her 20 because of her experience at Rockville. 21 RANDY KOESTER: I should point out, there 286 1 is some discrepancy as to what is an attempt. I 2 think a lot of these -- I've talked to staff before. 3 I think you make a judgment that something might be 4 an attempted suicide but it may also be a plain drug 5 overdose as well. Some of these are offenders 6 hoarding drugs. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you have any 8 personal knowledge about the attempted suicide 9 number at Rockville? 10 RANDY KOESTER: I do not. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Anything else from any 12 of you? 13 FRAN SMITH: We have a suicide companion 14 program at Rockville which was initiated when -- 15 PAM FERGUSON: Through the PLUS unit, a 16 volunteer to sit with somebody who is feeling -- 17 FRAN SMITH: Possibly -- 18 PAM FERGUSON: Possible. 19 CHERYL BENNETT: Depressed. 20 PAM FERGUSON: Yeah. They come with them 21 and sit with them and watch them and stay with them 287 1 until they are released from that program. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Plus, Commissioner 3 Donahue started that a couple years ago, right? So 4 it was -- it was up and running in '06. 5 PAM FERGUSON: But we didn't always have 6 the suicide companion then. We had to get the 7 program going and know who they are. There's a 8 special criteria that these suicide companions sit 9 through. So it took a lot to get to know that 10 offender, to trust her, and even though staff is 11 right there. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you remember when 13 the PLUS folks at Rockville starting doing suicide 14 companion? 15 PAM FERGUSON: I don't know. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You don't have to 17 guess, if you don't remember. 18 PAM FERGUSON: I would say sometime in the 19 middle of the summer of 2007 is when we started. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So the numbers we were 21 seeing in '06 -- 288 1 PAM FERGUSON: Correct, is prior to us. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Prior, right. 3 DAVID DONAHUE: Just, again, for point of 4 clarification. In spring of '06, we hosted a 5 suicide prevention summit in Indiana. Prior to that 6 we didn't keep score except for those who were 7 successful. And I wanted to catch folks doing it 8 right, not waiting until they do it wrong. We now 9 measure, even though there's interventions that 10 would promote the potential of successful suicide, 11 because historically we only captured the data when 12 the offender was successful. We believe that the 13 intervention techniques being used by staff are very 14 important to understand why people would become 15 potentially suicidal. That's why the numbers are in 16 fact important to us today. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Great. Thank you. 18 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Nurse Bennett, was 19 that why a psychiatrist -- one of the reasons why 20 the psychiatrist was brought on to staff, in 21 addition to the psychologist that you have? 289 1 CHERYL BENNETT: No. We have to have a 2 person that can prescribe medication. We have been 3 using a mental health nurse practitioner until 4 we could find a board-certified psychiatrist. So we 5 finally have found one, so now they're coming on 6 board. Psychologist cannot prescribe medication, so 7 that's the reason why we have both. 8 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: I see. Good for you. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Just one last question 10 about the midnight porters stuff. In a dorm, is it 11 fair to say that if one offender was to be released 12 at any time of the night for a rendezvous with a 13 staff person, about everybody in the dorm would know 14 it? 15 FRAN SMITH: Yes. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Not too many secrets in 17 the dorm. 18 FRAN SMITH: The offenders would be in 19 there the next morning saying she didn't carry her 20 load and didn't do her share of the work because she 21 left early. They would tell me. That's happened. 290 1 They have complained someone was ill and didn't do 2 their part. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Right. How would a 4 midnight porter get proof that -- of the hours that 5 she worked? 6 PAM FERGUSON: About the grievance that 7 you're talking about, the extra duty. That was 8 sanctioned for disciplinary, whatever she might have 9 got in trouble for some reason. The sanction was, 10 you have to work ten hours extra duty or whatever 11 doing something. Her complaint in the grievance was 12 I did work those four hours and they lost it in the 13 log or whatever. The porters that work, that's 14 their actual job, they work about 6.5 hours in the 15 evening. And they have a supervisor there, whether 16 it's the dorm officer, if you're just a porter in 17 your dorm, or another supervisor if you're a porter 18 that cleans the other buildings. Their supervisor 19 signs off on their 6.5 hours. That's how they get 20 paid. And it's kind of like a pay slip, and they 21 stamp it and they sign off and keep track, and then 291 1 they turn them into the major's secretary for 2 payment. 3 FRAN SMITH: Similar to a time card. We 4 want the offender to be responsible for keeping 5 track of their own time, which mirrors the outside 6 world, which a lot of them haven't had jobs. So now 7 they are responsible, when you work for that 8 supervisor, they get it signed that you worked the 9 6.5 hours. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Would any of these 11 midnight porters, would it be possible for them to 12 do any work during that graveyard shift that would 13 involve leaving the dorm? 14 PAM FERGUSON: The only thing I would 15 think is taking the trash out. Yeah, to the 16 dumpster right beside the dorm. The dumpsters. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And would the, I assume 18 a CO accompany her? 19 PAM FERGUSON: I don't know. 20 FRAN SMITH: They call them out at night. 21 However, you have what they -- the post, on the 292 1 outside post. They call them out so that that 2 outside post will see them come through the door. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Right. So they don't 4 think there is an escape going on. 5 FRAN SMITH: They are observed, yes. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Lieutenant Lawson, 7 would somebody taking the trash out between midnight 8 and 6:00 be accompanied by a CO? 9 LIEUTENANT LAWSON: At times they would. 10 If the officer did not supervise them, then they 11 would be called out and a street officer would 12 respond that they were watching that offender leave 13 the dorm, go to the trash, and then immediately back 14 to dorm. They are under supervision all the time. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: All right. Well, thank 16 you all very much. And we will recess for 15 17 minutes and at 3:45 if we could have Warden Stout, 18 that would be great. 19 (Break taken at 3:31 p.m.) 20 (Resumed at 3:45 p.m.) 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: We will come back to 293 1 order, please. Good afternoon, Ms. Stout. 2 JULIE STOUT: Hi. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Hi. Thank you for 4 waiting so patiently. You thought you were going to 5 be first, or second up, and you had to wait until 6 the end. I appreciate your patience. Would you 7 mind raising your right hand, please? Do you 8 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're 9 about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, 10 and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 11 JULIE STOUT: I do. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Mind stating your name 13 for the record, please? 14 JULIE STOUT: Julie Stout. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And you are the -- how 16 long have you been warden at Rockville? Or 17 superintendent, sorry. 18 JULIE STOUT: I've been superintendent for 19 almost two years. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And when did you become 21 a superintendent? 294 1 JULIE STOUT: It was in July, I believe, 2 of 2006. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Were you superintendent 4 when the BJS NIS study was taken at your facility? 5 JULIE STOUT: I was. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Have you had an 7 opportunity to review that report? 8 JULIE STOUT: I have. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. Do you believe 10 that sexual assault between inmates occurs at 11 Rockville? 12 JULIE STOUT: Based on what the survey 13 indicates, that indicates that there's that 14 possibility. But do I believe it based on the 15 information that I have? I haven't seen anything to 16 document that. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: My question is do you 18 believe it occurs, not have you seen evidence or -- 19 do you believe the survey? Do you believe that it 20 is occurring at your facility? Is there sexual 21 abuse occurring between inmates at Rockville? 295 1 JULIE STOUT: There's a possibility. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. That wasn't my 3 question, but -- 4 JULIE STOUT: You're asking me to answer 5 something that I have nothing to testify to. Will I 6 say that, no, there's not? No. But I can't admit 7 that, yes, there is. There is a possibility for 8 anything. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Fair enough. Is there 10 such a thing as willing and consensual sexual acts 11 among inmates that would not violate the SAP policy? 12 JULIE STOUT: No. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: No. What about sexual 14 harassment by staff towards inmates? Is there 15 any -- does that happen at your facility? 16 JULIE STOUT: Well, there is a documented 17 episode that you spoke of earlier with the officer 18 that made reference to an offender's breast. I 19 would call that harassment, so, yes, that has 20 happened. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you think that 296 1 there's other instances besides that one that have 2 occurred at Rockville? 3 JULIE STOUT: Yes, I can think of another. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Sorry? 5 JULIE STOUT: Yes. I can think of 6 another, yes. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Of another. When was 8 that? 9 JULIE STOUT: I'm guessing that would have 10 been in 2004, maybe. Maybe 2005. It involved an 11 employee kissing an offender. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And what happened to 13 the employee? 14 JULIE STOUT: He was terminated. He was 15 either terminated or resigned. I can't remember 16 which. But it was because of that episode. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How long have you been 18 at Rockville in any capacity? 19 JULIE STOUT: I was at Rockville initially 20 for approximately seven years. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: From when to when? 297 1 JULIE STOUT: From 1997, I believe, until 2 2004. Probably 2005. Then I was transferred to the 3 Wabash Valley Correctional Facility where I stayed 4 for ten months, and then came back to Rockville as 5 superintendent. 6 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: What was your 7 capacity -- what did you do when you were there in 8 1997? 9 JULIE STOUT: I came to Rockville from the 10 Putnamville Correctional Facility. And at Rockville 11 I was a classifications supervisor, and then I was 12 promoted to assistant superintendent. And then I 13 went to Wabash Valley as an assistant 14 superintendent, and then came back as 15 superintendent. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So you are Mr. Brown's 17 immediate predecessor as assistant superintendent; 18 is that correct? 19 JULIE STOUT: Yes, I am. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And you were telling us 21 about any other instances of sexual harassment by 298 1 staff at Rockville. Are you aware of any other 2 instances besides the two? 3 JULIE STOUT: There's a possibility. The 4 investigation that Mr. Newlin talked about utilizing 5 JPay. And what the offender did was sent a letter 6 home and said that she had experienced her first 7 case of sexual harassment. That investigation is 8 still ongoing. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Any other instances? 10 JULIE STOUT: Not that I can think of 11 right now, no. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Where are the blind 13 spots at Rockville? If you were an individual who 14 wanted to have a sexual rendezvous with an inmate at 15 Rockville, where would be the more advantageous 16 places to do that? 17 JULIE STOUT: For staff? 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Let's start with staff. 19 Staff-on-inmate. 20 JULIE STOUT: A blind spot could be any 21 office for staff. Any closet. The facility, as you 299 1 can see by the pictures, is fairly open as far as 2 the housing design. And so I would say at a housing 3 unit it would have to be a closet. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: When were the dorms -- 5 I know that the facility is like, what, since 1952 6 or something? 7 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And previously it was a 9 military base? 10 JULIE STOUT: Air base, yes. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: When were the dorms 12 built, the dorms that have residential units now? 13 JULIE STOUT: The last dorm I believe was 14 completed in 1997. Because it was opened in '97, 15 '98. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How would you say are 17 the lines of sight for observing what goes on in the 18 cells in the two-tiered dorms? 19 JULIE STOUT: To get a good line of sight, 20 the officer or staff person, whoever is in the 21 building, needs to move around. Standing in the day 300 1 room on the bottom floor, I can stand and look 2 around and I can see into each room as I move 3 around. If I wanted to see into the restroom, I 4 would obviously have to maneuver myself into the 5 door and then step on in. I can look up on the top 6 floor and I can see partially into the rooms, but to 7 get a good view I have to go up to the second floor 8 and look. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: What's the nature of 10 the privacy in the bathrooms? 11 JULIE STOUT: The bathrooms, all the 12 stalls have doors on them, all the showers have 13 curtains. But you can see legs. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And if the COs don't 15 move around, where are they stationed in the dorms? 16 Like say on the graveyard shift from 12:00 to 6:00? 17 JULIE STOUT: They would be stationed at 18 the desk. When you walk in the entryway, the 19 officer's station is right there in the middle, and 20 then the dorms go off to the sides. That's not 21 their job to sit at the desk. 301 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. Circulate. 2 JULIE STOUT: Absolutely. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Where are the video 4 cameras? I know there's none in the dorms; is that 5 right? 6 JULIE STOUT: No, there's not. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Where are -- forgive me 8 if -- it's blurring now. 9 JULIE STOUT: The video cameras, there are 10 four in segregation, and then we have video cameras 11 in the visiting room. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Would you like to have 13 more? 14 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Where would you put 16 them? 17 JULIE STOUT: I would put them in the 18 housing units. We would put them in the offender 19 recreation building. Add video cameras to all the 20 cells in segregation, in the offender services 21 building, in the chow hall, and both dining areas 302 1 and back in the kitchen. I would like to have video 2 cameras pointed out on the yard. Possibly in the 3 parking lot. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: If it's not sensitive 5 information, how many correctional or custodial 6 officers do you have on the daytime shift, the 7 morning through 6:00? 8 JULIE STOUT: I believe the count is 9 approximately 44 daytime. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And you've got 1200 -- 11 as of yesterday, 1200 inmates. 12 JULIE STOUT: Yes. My count today -- 13 count today is 1207. I have 1207 bodies. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So the ratio of 15 custodial staff to inmates during the day is pushing 16 one to 30; is that right? 17 JULIE STOUT: But we're all considered 18 correctional employees. So whether we have 19 custodial employees that are not, we also have 20 counselors, case managers, unit managers, teachers, 21 recreation staff, maintenance staff, industry staff, 303 1 kitchen, health care, administrative staff. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: They are all expected 3 to respond? 4 JULIE STOUT: Absolutely. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: How many total staff, 6 people with a pulse and getting a paycheck, do you 7 have looking after those 1207 people? 8 JULIE STOUT: I'm allowed to have 307 9 employees. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Three hundred seven. 11 JULIE STOUT: Uh-huh. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Are you satisfied with 13 the number of custodial officers you have on all 14 shifts or do you think you need more? 15 JULIE STOUT: I'm satisfied. I think if 16 you would ask any superintendent, would you like to 17 have more staff, everyone always wants more. Can we 18 do what's required to do? Yes. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Earlier, I asked you 20 whether you thought staff-on-inmate sexual 21 harassment occurred, and you mentioned I think three 304 1 instances. 2 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you believe that 4 inmate-on-inmate sexual activity is going on at 5 Rockville? 6 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. Do you think 8 it's a serious problem? 9 JULIE STOUT: I think the activity is a 10 problem. I think the relationships pose a serious 11 problem. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. Now -- when they 13 break up. 14 JULIE STOUT: When they break up or when 15 they feel the need to form that type of 16 relationship. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. We discussed at 18 the beginning, I think the first panel, the 19 statistics that you provided, somebody from IDOC 20 provided, about the survey that was taken at 21 Rockville. I'm going to ask Mr. Koester if we have 305 1 time later, ask about that. How familiar are you 2 with that, the survey, how it was done and so forth? 3 Were you aware it was being done last January, a 4 couple months ago? 5 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Did you review the 7 form, the survey form? 8 JULIE STOUT: Before it went out, no. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: After? 10 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You looked at the 12 results? 13 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you remember that 15 I -- 16 JULIE STOUT: Would you like my copy? 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yes. I'm talking about 18 the -- maybe that's it. That looks like it. Thank 19 you. Thank you very much. Yup, yup, yup. Do you 20 think this is accurate? I won't go through each and 21 every one of these. But do you have any reason to 306 1 think these are inaccurate summations of the survey 2 that was taken a couple months ago? 3 JULIE STOUT: No, I don't. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Don't have any reason 5 to doubt it? 6 JULIE STOUT: No. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who has access to the 8 database, the AXS? 9 JULIE STOUT: Image AXS. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Image AXS, yes. 11 JULIE STOUT: Unit managers, case 12 managers, classification staff. I do. Assistant 13 superintendents. Internal affairs. Secretary. I'm 14 not sure. Captains. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. So quite a few 16 of your staff can enter information on that. Or 17 when I said access, they can pull -- 18 JULIE STOUT: Review it. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: They can review it. 20 Who can change any of the information on it? 21 JULIE STOUT: I believe the secretary, if 307 1 I'm not mistaken. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who can physically 3 change it, whether they are authorized to do or not? 4 JULIE STOUT: Secretary changes it. You 5 mean who can put in requests to change? 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: If I was thinking 7 deviously and I wanted to change something on the 8 Image AXS, could I physically do it or do I need a 9 passcode or some pin number in order to mess with 10 the figures? 11 JULIE STOUT: No, the secretary puts the 12 information in. I don't believe anybody else can 13 get in and alter that information. Yeah, she has 14 the only password. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do male officers staff 16 the dorms? 17 JULIE STOUT: Yes, they do. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Any shift? 19 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do male staff receive 21 any cross-gender supervision training? 308 1 JULIE STOUT: Yes. All departmental staff 2 receive cross-gender supervision training. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: What's the nature of 4 that training? What do they learn? 5 JULIE STOUT: It has to do with searches. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. And are they 7 allowed to do strip searches of female offenders? 8 JULIE STOUT: As the Lieutenant testified, 9 male officers are only allowed to do that during an 10 emergency situation. 11 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. 12 JULIE STOUT: And that's a situation that 13 I would declare. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You would declare that. 15 What about pat-downs? Can a male officer do a 16 pat-down of all areas of a female offender? 17 JULIE STOUT: As the Lieutenant testified, 18 no. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Just wanted to know if 20 you agree with the Lieutenant? 21 JULIE STOUT: Yes, I agree. 309 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Any other special 2 training that the male staff that will be in the 3 dorms need to receive about unique needs of female 4 offenders? 5 JULIE STOUT: Actually in the very near 6 future all of us will receive training in dealing 7 with female offenders. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Why is that? 9 JULIE STOUT: It's a specialized area. 10 Women are special, they are unique individuals, and 11 require additional training. So the department has 12 put together a program that all staff, regardless of 13 how long you've worked in a female facility, will 14 receive that training. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And is this part of the 16 SAP policy? 17 JULIE STOUT: No, not that I'm aware. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Well, the training -- 19 have you reviewed the contents of the training, seen 20 a table of contents, looked at a lesson plan? 21 JULIE STOUT: I have not. A training 310 1 officer has attended the meeting, but I've not seen 2 the training outline. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So you don't know if it 4 has anything about sexual assault, sexual 5 harassment, what happens when the girlfriends break 6 up? 7 JULIE STOUT: No. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: We were talking about 9 blind spots and where you would like to put the 10 cameras. I assume those are one and the same, 11 right? 12 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you tell new 14 arrivals, new inmates, about where the blind spots 15 are, where to avoid being alone? 16 JULIE STOUT: No. I am not aware of 17 anyone that gives them that information. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Let me make sure I 19 know -- of course we don't have Mr. Manson. 20 JULIE STOUT: Right. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Who is the intake 311 1 officer. But I think we were shown this brochure 2 entitled Sexual Assault Prevention. Is this 3 given -- 4 JULIE STOUT: That's given to all new 5 arrivals. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: This is very good. It 7 has -- one of the bullet points is avoid secluded 8 areas. 9 JULIE STOUT: Right. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Et cetera, et cetera. 11 This is great. So -- then what about this document, 12 RTC orientation announcement. Is that out of your 13 office? 14 CHERYL BENNETT: Isolated areas where 15 sexual assaults could occur. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Have you seen that 17 document before? 18 JULIE STOUT: Yes, it's what's used in 19 orientation. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And noting on the first 21 substantive -- anyway, included in there they are 312 1 supposed to warn the new inmates about where not to 2 be; is that right? 3 JULIE STOUT: Uh-huh. 4 JERRY NEWLIN: And to your knowledge, 5 Mr. Manson, if he were here, would testify that's 6 the lesson plan and the content that all inmates are 7 given or told about? 8 JULIE STOUT: I believe so, yes. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I'm sorry. 10 JULIE STOUT: Yes, I believe this is what 11 he would say. Do I know that he would give specific 12 rooms, like don't go into this closet on this floor? 13 No. I think that would put too much fear where it 14 doesn't need to be. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That's fair. Can you 16 tell us, Warden -- Superintendent, about the sexual 17 violence assessment tool that was developed by -- in 18 part by a grant, a Federal grant? 19 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And have you had 21 occasion to get trained on its use? 313 1 JULIE STOUT: No. I reviewed it, but, no, 2 I haven't received training. And it's still fairly 3 new. I think one of the -- one of the issues we 4 have with it right now, and something that's 5 certainly been discussed, is that some offenders 6 will come up as both predator and victim. And 7 that's based on the crime. So we have an offender 8 that could end up both categories. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: The same person could 10 be profiled as both? 11 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That's not too 13 surprising. 14 JULIE STOUT: No. But then you have the 15 question of which way do you go. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: If they both wind up in 17 Fran's ad seg, doesn't matter a whole lot. You 18 don't have to answer that. And when is that 19 administered? When is that assessment tool supposed 20 to be administered? 21 JULIE STOUT: Upon arrival. 314 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Every inmate. 2 JULIE STOUT: Every inmate is supposed to 3 have that, yes. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I realize you haven't 5 had training on it. How does it work? Does it give 6 a score depending on each answer to every question? 7 JULIE STOUT: Yes, there's a number 8 assigned to it. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Does it consider or 10 does it corroborate any information from the 11 inmate's file, criminal file, or central file? 12 JULIE STOUT: You mean does it take 13 information from their summary? 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yeah. In other words, 15 does it rely entirely on the answers by the 16 offender, or do you not take their word for it and 17 look in their medical record to see if they have 18 suffered a sexual assault in the past, look in their 19 previous incarcerations and see if they have 20 indicated a sexual orientation? 21 JULIE STOUT: I can't answer that. They 315 1 don't all come in with medical records. And even 2 their summary can be self-reported, just as a survey 3 can be. So I can't answer that. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you expect your 5 intake officers, who I assume that would be Pam, is 6 that right, Ms. Ferguson? No, sorry, that's 7 Mr. Manson. You expect Mr. Manson to -- what 8 information do you want him to have in front of him 9 when he's making housing assignments? 10 JULIE STOUT: He makes facility 11 assignments. He may transfer an offender from 12 intake to Rockville. Ms. Ferguson -- 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: She makes the housing 14 assignments. 15 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: What information do you 17 expect him to have in front of him when he's making 18 facility assignments? By facility, I assume you 19 mean choosing between the three women's facilities? 20 JULIE STOUT: Yes. He's going to have the 21 criteria, because one of the facilities is a 316 1 minimum-security facility. So he'll have the 2 criteria on whether the offender meets Madison 3 criteria, that would be the minimum security, or 4 even work release. He'll have hopefully a 5 presentence investigation. That may be there, that 6 may not. He'll have any assessments that were done 7 in our facility. And then available beds. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Available. 9 JULIE STOUT: Beds. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Beds. 11 JULIE STOUT: If we have openings, if the 12 Indiana women's prison has openings. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Have you seen the audit 14 by the Commission on Accreditation for Corrections 15 that was for the period -- that occurred at your 16 facility October 31 to November 2nd, 2005? 17 JULIE STOUT: I reviewed it, yes. I 18 wasn't there during that audit. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yeah. On the second 20 page, it is discussing facility demographics and it 21 says that the rated capacity of the Rockville 317 1 Correctional Facility at that time was 624. It says 2 the actual population is 1163. Is that accurate? 3 Was that accurate? 4 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. Would you say 6 that your facility is housing well beyond capacity? 7 JULIE STOUT: It's at a manageable level. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is that a yes? 9 JULIE STOUT: If you're looking at the 10 rate of capacity, what my warm body count is today, 11 yes, it's over the rated capacity. But is it 12 manageable? No. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is it unmanageable? 14 JULIE STOUT: It is manageable. It's not 15 unmanageable. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And I believe the 17 facility -- this audit says a couple paragraphs 18 later, "The facility was designed to accommodate 19 growth up to 150 percent of its rated capacity of 20 624." So I think that would be about 936 if you 21 went to the very brink of the 150 percent growth. 318 1 Would you agree that at 1207 today you're pushing 2 about 300 more than the maximum-rated capacity, even 3 accommodating 150 percent beyond written capacity? 4 JULIE STOUT: The math would reflect that, 5 yes, we're over the rated capacity. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Does that concern you? 7 JULIE STOUT: Not at this time. We, like 8 I said, we seem to manage the population. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You know, if that BJS 10 audit is accurate and 127 of your inmates have 11 experienced forcible penetration and victimization, 12 is that manageable? If that is correct, would you 13 consider that still manageable? 14 JULIE STOUT: But I believe that 127 is a 15 weighted percentage, is it not? 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yeah. But why don't 17 you answer my question and then I'll answer yours, 18 please? If that is true, if you have over 19 10 percent of your population has been raped, 20 assaulted or otherwise sexually victimized, would 21 you still find that to be an acceptable manageable 319 1 operation? 2 JULIE STOUT: One that has had a sexual 3 victimization episode is too many. One is too many. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So 127 is a nightmare, 5 if it's true? 6 JULIE STOUT: If it's true. 7 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: I understand that 8 there are three institutions in Indiana for women. 9 JULIE STOUT: Three. 10 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Are there three? 11 JULIE STOUT: There is actually four. 12 There is a work release center. There are some 13 other community centers. There is a Madison 14 Correctional Facility, which is the minimum-security 15 facility. Indiana women's prison. And our 16 facility. 17 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Among that number, 18 what is your reputation at Rockville? What do 19 people think of your facility? Do you have a 20 reputation? 21 JULIE STOUT: We -- I believe our 320 1 reputation is very good. We run a very good 2 facility. We have offenders that are glad to get 3 back to our facility. 4 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Return. To what 5 extent is your staff aware of cultural differences 6 in terms of sexual assault and how that plays out in 7 terms of boundary issues and what one culture may 8 perceive as okay and another may find distasteful 9 and off limits? Do you do any kind of cultural 10 training, cultural competency training for staff? 11 JULIE STOUT: I think it's more of a 12 boundary training. I know with each new class that 13 comes in, new employees, I do go and talk to each 14 class and give them examples of basically different 15 pathways that women have, the different thinkings 16 that they have, how staff need to portray a good 17 model. They may not have a good model in their 18 life, a good role model. This is, I think, more 19 important for the male employees than it is for the 20 female employees. I do explain to them that females 21 have a tendency to want to know why and they 321 1 challenge questions more than a male offender would. 2 Female staff have a tendency to seek -- I'm sorry, 3 female offenders, to seek approval. Their distance 4 is a little closer than what male offenders are. So 5 I try to impress that upon the employees. And also 6 the ways that females can be manipulative. Yeah, I 7 mean training does carry some of those areas also. 8 I don't have a training outline with me. 9 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Are these materials 10 available in other languages and in Braille? The 11 brochure, the orientation packet? 12 JULIE STOUT: They are not offered in 13 Braille. I believe the only other language we have 14 is on the sexual assault prevention posters. Those 15 are in Spanish. The pamphlets are not in Spanish. 16 And that's something we found as a barrier that 17 we're going to correct, is get those pamphlets in 18 Spanish. 19 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Do you have an open 20 door policy to your staff? 21 JULIE STOUT: Yes, I do. 322 1 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Do you consider 2 yourself a leader? 3 JULIE STOUT: Yes, I do. 4 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: And your management 5 style reflects? 6 JULIE STOUT: Team approach. I like to 7 know what opinions they have. I like to know if 8 they have any thoughts or ideas. I like feedback on 9 the things that I come up with. However, if there 10 is an emergency situation, I can switch to that and 11 not seek opinion as much as guide. 12 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: You spoke of NIC 13 gender-response principles in your testimony? 14 JULIE STOUT: Yes, I did. I attended that 15 class. 16 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: How do these 17 principles relate to your vision of a safe facility? 18 JULIE STOUT: We're charged with keeping 19 the offenders safe, keeping the employees safe, and 20 keeping the community safe. And we take all three 21 of those things very seriously. The offender has 323 1 already been judged, so it's not for us to do that 2 when she comes in. NIC presents a gender-responsive 3 strategy regarding the way women think, regarding 4 the way women tend to commit crimes, the way -- the 5 relationships that women like to have as they 6 continue in prison, what's important to them. And 7 we try to continue that when they come in as far as 8 the relationships. We try to encourage 9 relationships with their family, with their 10 children. We try to encourage healthy relationships 11 through healthy living, through CODA, being positive 12 role models for the offenders, both male and female 13 staff. Setting boundaries. Not letting some female 14 offenders manipulate to get what they want. Putting 15 them in charge of their release from the day they 16 set foot in prison, so they have a goal, so they 17 have something to look forward to, they know what 18 they need to work on. Having contact with staff -- 19 as you heard today, through written correspondence, 20 through verbal conversations, through mainline, 21 through TIPS, anonymous notes, letters to central 324 1 office. Letters to me, inquiries from their family, 2 from the community. We want them to feel like -- 3 like they are worthy. As the Commissioner said, 4 they are not there to be punished, they are there to 5 correct behavior and learn some skills that will 6 help them when they are released. 7 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: And you feel your 8 staff is adequately trained in these guiding 9 principles as well? 10 JULIE STOUT: Yes, I do. 11 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: What is it that you 12 have very little of or you have none of that you 13 need in order to support these guiding principles 14 and your PREA efforts? What is it that you need 15 that you don't have? 16 JULIE STOUT: What I don't have is what I 17 heard you say earlier, which is community support if 18 in fact we have a PREA incident. I don't have that. 19 And I'm interested in that. Additional training for 20 internal affairs regarding trauma and techniques to 21 use to investigate an allegation if we were to 325 1 actually have a PREA episode. I don't have that and 2 I would like to have additional training in that 3 area also. 4 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Do you see this 5 experience with the Panel and providing information 6 as positive, as a wake-up call, as a criticism? How 7 do you view this experience and what will you take 8 away? 9 JULIE STOUT: I will take away relief. 10 This has been very stressful for all of us. When I 11 first learned of the results of the survey I was 12 just mortified. Like I said, I hadn't seen anything 13 at all to indicate that this has gone on, and I 14 certainly don't want to have a blind eye to what 15 goes on in my front and back yard. But even when I 16 presented it to staff, there just was no indication 17 from anyone, and they are all very open-minded, all 18 very outspoken, and I believe they would have said 19 something had they thought something was going on. 20 So it was a shock for all of us. And we literally 21 walked around for, you know, a month with disbelief, 326 1 just not realizing that that was going to be the 2 result of the survey. We had educated so much in 3 the spring about PREA. The pamphlets went out, I 4 had the signage in the housing units, it was 5 discussed in orientation, staff heard about it not 6 only in training but on their post. It was also 7 discussed in the reentry meetings the offenders had 8 with their case managers. Everybody was educated 9 about PREA. To the point where it could have been 10 we overeducated, we oversensitized them, I don't 11 know. But the experience that I will take from 12 this, as well as my staff, is to, while we don't 13 exactly believe all of the survey, it would be not 14 to assume, to always keep a watchful eye, to look 15 for ways that we can improve. An example, the 16 camera system. That's going to be a benefit to us 17 to have a camera system. More training on, as you 18 said earlier, support groups, helping trauma 19 victims, investigative processes. 20 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Culturally competent 21 service or support? 327 1 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 2 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: That reflects cultural 3 differences in terms of how people perceive or 4 receive? 5 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 6 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: Go on, I didn't mean 7 to interrupt. You were on a roll, I thought I would 8 roll with you. 9 JULIE STOUT: I'm good, thank you. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Superintendent, what -- 11 in your experience, what would happen to an inmate 12 who snitches on another inmate in a serious way? 13 JULIE STOUT: Can you give me an example, 14 please. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yeah. Two inmates who 16 have a romantic relationship have a falling out, and 17 one of them enters a romantic relationship with 18 another. The other one resents it and considers 19 reporting the fact that they are having intimate 20 sexual activity instead of her. Do you think there 21 would be any repercussions for that reporting 328 1 prisoner among the rest of the prisoners? The word 2 gets out that, for whatever motive, she snitched and 3 now somebody is in ad seg for a long time. 4 JULIE STOUT: There's always a possibility 5 for repercussion, but there's always the possibility 6 that there's going to be a part of the population 7 that's glad it's out. Not every offender approves 8 of that activity. I would say the majority of them 9 find it offensive. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And what's -- have you 11 ever been aware of any retaliation taken against any 12 of your inmates by another inmate? Any physical 13 retaliation for one inmate which you later concluded 14 was in retaliation for reporting of something about 15 the perpetrator? 16 JULIE STOUT: Reporting, no. No. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And what about among 18 your staff? Is there any code of silence among your 19 staff or do they freely report on one another's 20 problems or misconduct? 21 JULIE STOUT: There are those that freely 329 1 report. I can't answer to the ones that have the 2 code of silence. I'm not aware. I would hope that 3 they don't. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: When is the last time a 5 member of your staff reported to you or one of your 6 subordinates about the misconduct of another staff 7 member? 8 JULIE STOUT: I have information on my 9 desk right now about misconduct. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Reported by one of the 11 other officers? 12 JULIE STOUT: Reported by a sergeant about 13 an officer. Had nothing to do with any sexual 14 allegations. It has to do with the applying of 15 restraints being too tight, and the officer will be 16 terminated when I get back. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. One of the 18 documents you all produced was a memo signed by, I 19 assume, September 28, '07, to the ACA visiting audit 20 committee. Is that your signature? 21 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 330 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. And in that 2 one-sentence document you say, "Since the ACA audit 3 conducted at RCF in October/November 2005, there 4 have been no sexual assault cases at this facility." 5 In light of your testimony under oath today, would 6 you -- I take it you would not sign this today; is 7 that correct? 8 JULIE STOUT: There have been no founded 9 cases. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I thought you gave your 11 testimony a few minutes ago that there are at least 12 three cases of staff-on-inmate sexual abuse, one 13 resulting in a termination. One -- 14 JULIE STOUT: That one was in this year. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: January '08. What I'm 16 saying to you is if this form was handed you today, 17 I take it you would not sign it today? No sexual 18 assault cases since November of 2005? 19 JULIE STOUT: The officer that was 20 terminated this year was on trafficking, it wasn't 21 on sexual assault. 331 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. So you would 2 sign it then today? You believe today that there 3 have been no sexual assault cases, and this is not 4 limited to staff-on-inmate. No inmate-on-inmate, no 5 staff-on-inmate, you would sign that today, is that 6 what you're saying? 7 JULIE STOUT: There are no substantiated 8 cases, yes, that's what I'm saying. 9 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And so what part of 10 that sentence talks about substantiated? What would 11 it take to be substantiated for you to -- 12 JULIE STOUT: There would have to be an 13 investigation, case would have to be founded. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. Was there an 15 investigation of the individual that Mr. -- that 16 Jerry, your investigator, talked about where the -- 17 I thought as an investigator he did in fact 18 investigate and found after the administration of 19 the lie detecter, for lack of a better word, the 20 individual admitted the reference to the inmate's 21 breast and admitted touching her bottom and was 332 1 terminated? 2 JULIE STOUT: What he said was he may have 3 mentioned, he may have made a remark about her 4 breast. And if he touched her bottom, it was 5 accidental. And he was terminated because of the 6 candy. He was also at that level of discipline 7 where termination was warranted. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: What is that? I didn't 9 understand the last part. He was at that level. He 10 was in hot water already? 11 JULIE STOUT: He had had previous 12 discipline. So it was appropriate at that time to 13 terminate. 14 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: This not his first 15 infraction? 16 JULIE STOUT: No, it was not. 17 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Was this his first 18 infraction with sexual overtones? 19 JULIE STOUT: I don't know his past. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: You don't know his past 21 but you know he was in hot water. I don't 333 1 understand. 2 JULIE STOUT: I can't tell you exactly 3 what the previous discipline was for. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: But you know there was 5 some? 6 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So I'm confused then. 8 I guess your testimony is that you believe that it 9 is possible that sexual assault is going on among 10 your inmates and among staff on inmates, but you 11 don't have any, as you put it, substantiated cases 12 of it, is that your testimony? 13 JULIE STOUT: It's possible, yes. There 14 have been no founded cases. 15 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. And who are the 16 most vulnerable, those most likely to be victimized 17 by sexual predators? 18 JULIE STOUT: In my opinion? 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Yes. As your 20 experience as the superintendent of the facility 21 with the highest recorded incidence of sexual 334 1 victimization in the country? 2 JULIE STOUT: In my opinion, it would be 3 an offender that could be their first time in. 4 Someone that has been a sexual victim before. Has 5 been victimized on the outside. Doesn't necessarily 6 have to be in prison. Someone that probably suffers 7 from low self-esteem. Someone that maybe feels 8 unworthy, which goes hand in hand with low 9 self-esteem. Someone that is scared. Could be a 10 smaller offender. Could be someone that's -- may 11 have difficulty managing daily life skills. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Not gang protected. 13 JULIE STOUT: Excuse me? 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is gang membership or 15 lack thereof relevant to whether they are more 16 likely to become a victim? If a predator knows that 17 this individual has protection among other gang 18 related -- gang members, is that going to be 19 relevant as to whether they are more vulnerable or 20 not? 21 JULIE STOUT: We have a very, very low 335 1 percentage of any gang activity whatsoever in this 2 facility. 3 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So your answer is you 4 don't know or -- 5 JULIE STOUT: I'm saying that the 6 possibility is very low based on the amount of gang 7 activity that we have. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And what 9 characteristics do you look for in sexual -- those 10 who are potentially sexual predators? 11 JULIE STOUT: Clearly an aggressive 12 offender. Maybe someone that has a history of being 13 aggressive. Could be through her crime, could be 14 through her conduct in prison, or prior 15 incarcerations. Sexual preference maybe. 16 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Do you expect 17 Mr. Manson to ask about sexual orientation at 18 intake? 19 JULIE STOUT: Yes, it's on the survey. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is there a form or 21 something that he uses? 336 1 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 2 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. And is sexual 3 orientation one of the boxes to be checked? 4 JULIE STOUT: I believe it is, yes. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Would you provide that 6 form to us? I think it would be responsive to our 7 requests. Thank you, Mr. Koester. Have you seen 8 National Institute of Corrections DVDs entitled 9 Facing Prison Rape and Responding To Prison Rape? 10 JULIE STOUT: No. No. I know we 11 participated in a Webcast. I can't remember the 12 name of it. It was maybe a month ago. 13 STEVEN MCFARLAND: These DVDs have been 14 out for three years, four years. I recommend that 15 you might give them consideration for your 16 orientation. Are there any sanctions for an 17 offender who falsely reports sexual abuse? 18 JULIE STOUT: There is a disciplinary code 19 for lying to staff, false reporting. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And so what would be 21 the repercussions for an inmate saying she did 337 1 something that constitutes sexual abuse to me and it 2 turns out she is unable to prove it? 3 JULIE STOUT: There's a possibility that 4 she could receive a conduct report or we could close 5 the investigation. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Is there a distinction 7 made in that regard between intentionally false and 8 just mistaken? Or is it just you're either right or 9 you're wrong, no matter how good faith or not? And 10 if you're wrong, then you're going to be punished. 11 In other words, is there any gradation as to 12 culpable knowledge of the -- whether it's false or 13 not? 14 JULIE STOUT: I suppose some could 15 intentionally provide information that was 16 incorrect. But I think the greater would be it's 17 just a misconception of what happened. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: So is there any -- is 19 there any degree of punishment for an offender, 20 depending on your assessment of how intentional the 21 state -- or the falsity was? 338 1 JULIE STOUT: It would be taken on a 2 case-by-case basis. But, yes, there could be 3 disciplinary action. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And who would make the 5 decision as to how intentional it was or not? 6 JULIE STOUT: The person investigating. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And that would be at 8 your facility -- 9 JULIE STOUT: It could be Mr. Newlin. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Would it be anybody 11 else doing the investigation? 12 JULIE STOUT: There could be someone. 13 There could be a supervisor that was assigned to do 14 the investigation, just depending upon the 15 circumstances. If it's serious, it's going to be 16 Mr. Newlin. If it has a potential to be serious, it 17 will be Mr. Newlin. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Have you any 19 relationship with an outside hospital where a rape 20 victim could be taken for treatment? 21 JULIE STOUT: Yes. 339 1 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And which hospital? 2 JULIE STOUT: We have an agreement with 3 West Central Hospital in Clinton, Indiana. And our 4 offenders are also treated in Wishard Hospital in 5 Indianapolis. 6 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Have you ever had 7 occasion to transport an offender for such 8 treatment? 9 JULIE STOUT: Not that I'm aware of, no. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Thank you very much, 11 Ms. Stout. And Mr. Koester, I think if we still 12 have time, I wanted to ask you a few questions about 13 the incident survey. Ms. Stout, if you want to stay 14 there, that's fine. I believe you produced the 15 prison sexual incident survey. Is this the survey 16 the Commissioner was referring to? 17 RANDY KOESTER: That is. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And it was distributed 19 to how many inmates at Ms. Stout's facility? 20 RANDY KOESTER: I believe 53 inmates took 21 the survey. There were 75 -- between 70 and 75 340 1 originally identified in our random sampling. And 2 of those, 53 elected to take the survey. It was a 3 voluntary survey. 4 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And 169 were -- took 5 the NIS survey; is that right, Ms. Stout? 6 JULIE STOUT: Yeah, I believe the number 7 was 169. What I don't know is if all of those took 8 the survey or if some of them were directed down a 9 different path to the substance abuse survey. 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And I noticed, 11 Mr. Koester, that in the back there are these charts 12 that talk about the percentage of responses for each 13 of the questions. And there are -- there's a lot of 14 missing -- what is the -- what does the row 15 indicating missing mean? For example, question 26, 16 a pretty important question, "Has another offender 17 pressured you into having sexual contact?" Missing. 18 RANDY KOESTER: Missing would mean they 19 didn't answer that question. There was no response. 20 So a response was missing. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I see. Okay. So on 341 1 number 29, "Between what years did the most recent 2 of pressure or forced sexual contact occur?," 3 81 percent. Forty-three of your 53 folks neglected 4 to answer that question. Is that correct? 5 RANDY KOESTER: I believe that's right. 6 I'm not caught up with you. 7 STEVEN MCFARLAND: It's not paginated. 8 RANDY KOESTER: Could you remind me what 9 number that was again? 10 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Twenty-nine. 11 RANDY KOESTER: Twenty-nine. Yes. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Then in the very next 13 one, 30, not a single one of your surveyed inmates 14 wanted to answer "What was the worst thing that 15 happened during the incident of pressured or forced 16 sexual contact by another offender?" 17 RANDY KOESTER: Right. They didn't answer 18 it. What we don't have on there is "not 19 applicable." That's something we should probably 20 learn from. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Okay. And then on 342 1 number 31, 94 percent refused to answer "What type 2 of forced tactics were used to carry it out?" 3 RANDY KOESTER: Actually, I don't 4 acknowledge that they refused to answer. I just 5 don't think the answer is there. Again, we probably 6 should have put "not applicable" and allowed them to 7 pick "not applicable." 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That's your supposition 9 as to why they didn't answer. What we know is they 10 didn't answer. 11 RANDY KOESTER: And we know they couldn't 12 answer "not applicable" because we didn't include 13 that. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: And they couldn't write 15 anything else. They couldn't say they were 16 threatened with a crow bar because it's not 17 particularly mentioned. 18 RANDY KOESTER: Correct. 19 STEVEN MCFARLAND: On 32, 50 of the 53 we 20 don't have any answer for that one. Thirty-three, 21 "How many perpetrators were involved?," 98 percent 343 1 of them didn't answer that. And "Where did it 2 occur?," 49 of them didn't answer that. And it goes 3 on, all the rest. Thirty-five, all but three 4 wouldn't answer "Who did you report the incident 5 to?" Given -- does that give you any pause about 6 the reliability of this survey, especially when the 7 Warden is talking about how she doesn't have 8 corroborated reports coming to her and so she's 9 amazed at the BJS responses? The fact that 50 of 10 your 53 would not even say who they reported their 11 incident -- 12 RANDY KOESTER: That's assuming there is 13 an incident. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Of course. 15 RANDY KOESTER: They indicated earlier 16 that there wasn't an incident. If we were to put 17 "there was no incident" as an option or if we would 18 put "not applicable" as an option, I think that 19 would have explained some of this. 20 STEVEN MCFARLAND: It goes on and on. 21 Suffice it to say, at least half the survey was 344 1 unanswered by your 53 randomly selected inmates. 2 Under what circumstances was this taken? Where was 3 it taken? 4 RANDY KOESTER: It was taken at Rockville. 5 Which room specifically? I don't know. They did it 6 in groups. We had a random sampling and then we had 7 a person from our central office research and 8 planning division who was really assigned to this 9 project. This is a project that is funded by the 10 Save Inmate Grant that we received in 2005. And 11 we're doing this at all facilities. And essentially 12 she comes, she does a random sampling before she 13 goes there, they identify those inmates that will be 14 selected for the survey, and then she takes them 15 into a room, I believe -- I believe there are some 16 facility staff. And she gives them an instruction 17 how to take it. It's a written form. And at that 18 time or even before then they can elect to choose 19 not to take the survey. These are the 53 that did 20 take the survey. Now, you make a very good point, 21 Chairman McFarland, some of these questions are 345 1 contingent on your answers to others, and it doesn't 2 lay out very well, and it doesn't explain it that 3 way. Certainly there could be some format 4 improvement on the way the survey was conducted. 5 STEVEN MCFARLAND: If I'm making any 6 point, I'm just following up on the Commissioner's 7 testimony, which I thoroughly believe, that his 8 administration is at the forefront, and I'm not just 9 flattering, I sincerely believe this, of wanting to 10 fight prison rape. It's -- everybody who has come 11 in here has had zero tolerance, you know, coming out 12 their ears. We're so sick of hearing it. 13 Everything looks real good on paper. But 14 Mr. Donahue has done something about it. And 15 thing -- TIPS and PREA coordinators, so forth and so 16 on. I have every reason to believe that you are -- 17 your administration is very, very committed to 18 minimizing this risk. What concerns me, for what 19 it's worth, is that as long as there are big doubts 20 about the numbers, it's not going to be very high on 21 the triage list. And with all respect, the survey 346 1 is a joke, your survey. And it wouldn't hold any 2 water with respect to what I understand is necessary 3 for a credible survey without intimidation, doing it 4 in groups, sitting around, half the questions not 5 answered. Half as many as the BJS did on a 6 computerized audio anonymity. And I'm just 7 concerned that as long as some folks out -- it's 8 100 percent, or we should have put a box there for 9 "never happened" or "not applicable," that's the 10 kind of denial that scares the bejesus out of me. 11 That you just won't harness this as a problem, you 12 won't harness the energy that the Commissioner has 13 towards reentry and other things he's known for. 14 And you're just going to be in massive denial. And 15 so I'll get off my soapbox, but I would just, for 16 what it's worth, strongly urge you to assume that 17 the BJS survey is right about 123 folks. And as 18 your warden said, if one of them was raped, it's a 19 travesty. If 123 is, in my opinion that's a 20 nightmare. Unfortunately, the best we have in this 21 country says that that nightmare is happening right 347 1 in your facility. As long as it's just Pollyannish, 2 oh, well, BJS doesn't know what they are doing, and 3 we're shocked and appalled and when I walk the yard 4 it looks fine to me, I hear birds singing and I 5 can't imagine anybody -- I don't imagine anything is 6 going on in the mechanical room of the laundry deal, 7 even though everybody and their brother has a key to 8 it. I'm just concerned. So -- 9 RANDY KOESTER: I can tell you that 10 there's a lot of people that would share that kind 11 of concern. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: That's good to hear. 13 RANDY KOESTER: I don't believe there's 14 any culture of Pollyanna attitude. I do think, 15 though, that when push comes to shove, you certainly 16 want to lead by example, you want to lead from the 17 top. You want -- you do want to use zero tolerance 18 as a mantra even though it might be a broken record 19 after a while. You want people to know there will 20 be consequences for misconduct, whether it's staff 21 or inmates. And I do believe that message is 348 1 getting out. We have had people at that facility 2 that's worked there for decades and some of them are 3 set in their ways, but we have opportunity all the 4 time as we have new staff come in. We have 5 offenders coming in and leaving every day. The 6 atmosphere of that facility is changing and will 7 continue to change. I will say, and I can only 8 segue about what you said about the Commissioner, 9 I've already received an e-mail from our health care 10 services director. He's been -- he's been looking 11 at the health care services directive that was 12 talked about today, and we're having a meeting next 13 week to see how we can change that to include PREA. 14 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Great. Maybe you can 15 get a grant for some cameras. 16 RANDY KOESTER: If you can help us, I 17 would appreciate that. 18 STEVEN MCFARLAND: I don't have a 19 checkbook. Are there any other -- Commissioner, did 20 you want to say any parting words? 21 JULIE STOUT: I have a few things I would 349 1 like to say. I know you have my written testimony, 2 and I didn't have the opportunity to read it and I 3 won't, although I think it would certainly help a 4 little bit. But you have it on record. While I 5 certainly can't explain your survey and the results 6 of your survey, we are not Polyanna people. We 7 certainly don't turn our heads to anything. If at 8 all, we never take the approach of "not in my back 9 yard" or "this can't happen to me." That just 10 doesn't happen at my facility. And I don't think 11 anybody here will say that, yes, it does. We were 12 all shocked, like I said earlier, to even find that 13 we rank that high on inmate-on-inmate sexual 14 victimization. We were pleased that the percent was 15 low on staff, although I would like to see it even 16 lower than that. And, yes, the percent was low. We 17 strive to make improvements. We're certainly not 18 blind to the fact that improvements can be made in 19 all areas of the facility. We're constantly looking 20 for ways to improve, as the Commissioner is. But 21 Ms. Ferguson had said last night that if she had the 350 1 unfortunate incident of someone in her family having 2 to do time, and I agree with her, I would rather 3 that my family member or hers do time in my facility 4 and not someplace else. Because we do run a very 5 safe, clean and efficient facility. I would love 6 for both of you to come out and take a look. We 7 have been through two ACA accreditations. We're 8 scheduled to be reaccredited in November. Never has 9 there been this atmosphere in the prison. We have 10 numerous tours of college students that come 11 through. They don't see this either. We have our 12 families come in. I allow children to come into The 13 Hope Center. They are actually inside the facility. 14 I would never allow a child in there if I thought 15 they were going to be harmed or be witness to 16 something they shouldn't be. I'm a mother also; I 17 wouldn't do that. But I have a great staff and I 18 have a great facility. And we will learn from the 19 survey. I don't agree with the results; however, I 20 won't close my eyes to them. 21 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Thank you, 351 1 Commissioner. 2 DAVID DONAHUE: Ms. Ellis and 3 Mr. McFarland, I do appreciate the opportunity to be 4 here. I commend the work that you're doing, the 5 arduous days that you hold in listening to staff 6 defend the work that's done in their correctional 7 facilities, not only in Indiana but around the 8 country. I'm impressed with the focus of the PREA 9 Commission. Folks are committed in our business to 10 create an environment that promotes safety and 11 security, but also hope and opportunity. We have a 12 lot of folks, as we have alluded to before, that 13 will leave our prisons. And the imagery of 14 corrections today is still unfortunately built on 15 movies, tabloid journalism, and the stereotyping 16 about what is an acceptable practice. No one 17 deserves to be mistreated and everyone deserves the 18 utmost respect. Again, I commend you and I commend 19 the Commission. But I want to go on the record 20 categorically by saying I'm very proud of this staff 21 and all the employees of the Department of 352 1 Corrections. We have phenomenal partners in our 2 organization that are doing great work. They work 3 very hard, I don't pay them enough, and I can't 4 create the environment by which their 401K will be 5 healthier, but their commitment to public safety is 6 not daunted because of that. They are committed to 7 public safety because they promote hope and 8 opportunity as well. Again, I commend you for the 9 work. We look forward to your report. And as 10 Superintendent Stout said, you're always welcome in 11 Indiana. 12 STEVEN MCFARLAND: Thank you. Thank you 13 all. 14 CARROLL ANN ELLIS: I would like to 15 just -- I sense your sincerity, and I see your 16 professionalism. I have no doubt that you have 17 competent staff. You certainly have brought a 18 number of them with you. I've been very impressed 19 with a great deal of the testimony that I've heard. 20 Your enthusiasm is contagious, Commissioner, and I'm 21 so sure that it permeates throughout Indiana, and I 353 1 would agree with you that there is devastation, 2 there is sexual assault, there are mistakes, there's 3 a struggle, but there is also hope. And I'm very 4 hopeful that you will return and commit yourselves 5 to everything that you have discussed today. So I 6 thank you for your time. Thank you for your 7 cooperation as well. 8 STEVEN MCFARLAND: My closing word would 9 just be assume it's true and treat it like rape -- 10 would be my unsolicited advice. Thank you for your 11 time and your work and Godspeed going back to 12 Indiana. We're adjourned until 9:00 o'clock 13 tomorrow. 14 (Proceedings adjourned at 4:51 p.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 354 1 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 2 I, David Corbin, a Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, do hereby certify that 3 the within named, HEARINGS, personally appeared before me at the time and place herein set according 4 to law, was interrogated by counsel. 5 I further certify that the examination was recorded stenographically by me and then transcribed 6 from my stenographic notes to the within printed matter by means of computer-assisted transcription 7 in a true and accurate manner. 8 I further certify that the stipulations contained herein were entered into by counsel in my 9 presence. 10 I further certify that I am not of counsel to any of the parties, not an employee of counsel, 11 nor related to any of the parties, nor in any way interested in the outcome of this action. 12 AS WITNESS my hand and Notarial Seal this 13 31st day of March, 2008, at Washington, D.C. 14 15 ________________________ 16 David C. Corbin Notary Public 17 18 19 My commission expires January 1, 2012 20 21