1 1 2 3 4 5 6 REVIEW PANEL ON PRISON RAPE 7 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 8 OFFICE OF JUSTICE PROGRAMS 9 10 HEARING ON RAPE AND STAFF SEXUAL 11 MISCONDUCT IN U.S. PRISONS 12 SOUTH TEXAS COLLEGE OF LAW 13 HOUSTON, TEXAS 14 THURSDAY, MARCH 27, 2008 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 PANEL MEMBERS: 3 MR. STEVEN MCFARLAND Director 4 Task Force for the Faith-Based and Community Initiatives 5 U.S. Department of Justice 6 MS. CARROLL ANN ELLIS Director 7 Fairfax County Police Department Victim Services 8 EXECUTIVE TESTIMONY: 9 MR. BRAD LIVINGSTON Executive Director 10 Texas Department of Criminal Justice 11 MR. NATHANIEL QUARTERMAN Director 12 Correctional institutions Division Texas Department of Criminal Justice 13 MR. DAVID STACKS 14 Deputy Director Correctional institutions Division 15 Texas Department of Criminal Justice 16 PANEL ONE TESTIMONY: 17 MS. CHARMA BLOUNT, R.N. Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner, Estelle Unit 18 MR. RALPH BALES 19 Prison Rape Elimination Act (PREA) Coordinator Texas Department of Criminal Justice 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 3 1 DEAN ALFINI: Good afternoon. 2 My name is Jim Alfini. I'm the President 3 and Dean here at South Texas College of Law and it's my 4 pleasure to welcome the Panel on Prison Rape here to 5 South Texas College of Law and our colleagues from the 6 U.S. Department of Justice and from the Texas 7 correctional facilities. This is a very important 8 topic and we're very pleased to be the host for these 9 hearings. 10 I'd like you to feel that you're part of 11 South Texas for the next day and a half or so, so feel 12 free to use the facilities. Yes, there are restrooms 13 across the hall down here, but there are other 14 facilities as well. There's a library here and other 15 facilities, so please feel free to use it. Let me tell 16 you a little bit about South Texas College of Law, and 17 then I'm going to have to exit quickly because I have a 18 faculty meeting I have to preside over today. I'd 19 rather be here with you, but duty calls. 20 I'm originally from the New York City 21 area; spent most of my adult life in Chicago. Anyone 22 here from Yonkers, New York? No? Well, I happen to be 23 from Yonkers. I never thought I'd make my way to 24 Houston, Texas, but I'm very pleased to have been the 25 dean here for the past five years. This is a wonderful Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 4 1 law school. It's a free-standing law school. It's not 2 connected with a university. There are about -- oh, 3 fifteen or sixteen -- ABA accredited law schools across 4 the country that are independent law schools as we are. 5 We're the oldest and largest law school in Houston. We 6 were founded in 1923 as part of the YMCA system. We 7 actually had the law school classes in the basement of 8 the YMCA for about the first fifty years of our 9 existence. 10 We got ABA accreditation in the '50s and 11 started having full-time students come in in the '70s. 12 Up to that point, we were strictly a night law school 13 for working men and women, so in some ways we're a 14 relatively new law school in that we took on the 15 trappings of a modern law school from sort of the late 16 '70s on. We have about 1250 students, about sixty 17 faculty, almost 200 employees and a very nice facility. 18 And, again, I would hope that you would 19 take advantage of the facility; look around here on 20 your breaks. There is a very nice library just around 21 the corner here, the Fred Parks Library. Feel free to 22 use it. The courtroom that we're in is indicative of 23 one of our strengths. This is the T. Gerald Treece 24 Courtroom. It was built in 2003, so it's a very new 25 facility. It's a state-of-the-art facility. It's Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 5 1 named after one of our faculty members who is still 2 alive. I told him that we don't usually do this, but 3 in his case we made an exception and we named the 4 courtroom after him, largely because our advocacy 5 program has been nationally recognized for many years. 6 Our advocacy program has now won 7 ninety-nine national moot court and mock trial 8 championships. That's about three times the number of 9 any other law school in the country, so it's the 10 program that really puts us on the map. So I thought 11 I'd just tell you a few things about South Texas and 12 then I'll make, hopefully, a graceful exit here and let 13 you go on with your business, but I want to welcome you 14 to South Texas and, again, feel free to see this as 15 home for the next day and a half. Thank you. 16 MR. McFARLAND: My name is Steve 17 McFarland. I have the privilege of working with 18 Ms. Carroll Ann Ellis on this Review Panel. A third 19 member of the panel had to resign earlier this month 20 due to a new appointment to a position in Homeland 21 Security, so the Panel is the two of us. Let me just 22 say that the -- this public hearing is part of and is 23 mandated by the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003, 24 which created, among other things, this Review Panel on 25 Prison Rape with the purpose -- a very narrow and clear Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 6 1 purpose of identifying the common characteristics of 2 both victims and perpetrators of prison rape, and the 3 characteristics of the prisons that have been 4 determined by inmates surveyed to have had the greatest 5 and least success in preventing prison rape and staff 6 sexual misconduct as of last year. 7 This hearing was announced in the Federal 8 Register on February 19 on our Panel's website and by 9 media advisory a few days ago. The Panel will report 10 to the Bureau of Justice Statistics and to the National 11 Prison Rape Elimination Commission, which is also 12 created by PREA. We will report our findings on these 13 common characteristics of facilities and on 14 perpetrators and victims, and BJS, Bureau of Justice 15 Statistics, posts its findings on the inmate surveys 16 from jails, county jails nationwide, in April -- late 17 April. 18 We will then start this process again and 19 hold hearings on the -- those that have the highest and 20 lowest incidence of sexual assault and staff sexual 21 misconduct in jail facilities. The Panel today will be 22 hearing from officials and employees at five prisons in 23 the Texas Department of Criminal Justice today and 24 tomorrow. We have come to Houston because five of the 25 ten facilities in the United States that were rated to Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 7 1 be -- have the highest incidence of sexual assault 2 and/or staff sexual misconduct are in that system in 3 Texas Department of Criminal Justice, so it's our 4 purpose not to -- to conduct -- This is not a criminal 5 investigation. It is our purpose to work with the 6 Department to figure out why those rankings were so 7 high. Is it over reporting by inmates? Is it a 8 breakdown somewhere in the process? So this is a 9 search for information that can benefit corrections 10 nationwide. It is not to point blame. 11 We will -- The only witness that we won't 12 be able to hear from in the next day and a half will be 13 the warden from the Estelle Unit. He is out of the 14 country this week and so he has agreed to come to D.C. 15 and we'll ask him questions there early next month. 16 Before we go any further, I want to -- On behalf of the 17 Panel, I would like to thank a number of people for 18 their outstanding assistance in putting this hearing 19 together. 20 We certainly want to thank the law 21 school, South Texas College of Law, Dean Alfini, 22 Ms. McIntire, and the rest of the staff have just been 23 tremendous. We're very grateful for that. We're also 24 very grateful to the Texas Department of Criminal 25 Justice in accommodating our desire to visit the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 8 1 Estelle Unit, which we did this morning. I want to 2 thank the Office of Justice Programs, which is led by 3 Assistant Attorney General Jeffrey Sedgwick. I 4 particularly want to thank Michael Alston and Kathleen 5 Severens and George Mazza for their assistance -- and 6 Deborah Harris -- for their assistance in putting this 7 together. For Andi Moss from the Moss Group, our 8 expert advisor -- an associate from the Attorney 9 General's Office. I'd like to thank especially Robert 10 Siedlecki, who is our -- counsel in my office. I'll 11 shut up here with just a couple of final requests of 12 the witnesses. 13 If you submitted a written statement -- 14 you certainly may -- but you ought needn't feel 15 obligated to read it. We want to be able to ask as 16 many questions as possible and we have very limited 17 time, but, of course, it's your privilege to read as 18 much or as little of it as you like. We have and will 19 read them. 20 Second request would be, if you would 21 please define any jargon or acronyms or prison slang, 22 that would be helpful. Yet, we're all adults here and 23 we're talking about a rather gritty subject, so please 24 feel free to be graphically clear about sexual matters. 25 The more spe-- poignantly -- the more specific, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 9 1 succinct and direct the better. Your testimony will be 2 under oath, as I said, and we're looking for what works 3 and what doesn't and your candor and clarity and 4 simplicity will be very helpful in our mutual 5 exploration of ways to improve the system. And, 6 finally, our questions are directed solely at the 7 prisons at issue, not at the prison systems at large. 8 In other words, the Texas Department of 9 Criminal Justice is the second largest state prison 10 system in the country and the -- We are just focused 11 primarily on the five units in that system which 12 confidential inmate surveys have indicated we have a 13 problem. We're not impugning or looking into the 14 entire -- every facility of the Department except to 15 the extent that there are system-wide policies or 16 protocols. 17 So with that, to say the record will be 18 left open until thirty days after the last hearing of 19 the warden of the Estelle Unit sometime early next 20 month should any witness wish to clarify or supplement 21 their remarks or produce any additional documentation. 22 So at this time, let me invite 23 Ms. Carroll Ann Ellis. Let me just say we are very 24 privileged to have her on the Panel. She directs the 25 Victim Services Division at one of the nation's largest Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 10 1 county police departments, the Fairfax Virginia Police 2 Department. She brings a tremendous biography of 3 someone who understands victimization and law 4 enforcement and has a heart for both. So, Ms. Ellis, 5 any remarks? 6 MS. ELLIS: Thank you, Mr. McFarland. 7 I don't want to take a lot of time. I 8 simply want to also offer my gratitude and appreciate 9 you for all of the support and assistance that we have 10 had and certainly to the Dean for allowing us to hold 11 these hearings in this wonderful facility. And with 12 that, I am anxious for us to start the hearings and to 13 engage in conversation. 14 MR. McFARLAND: That would bring us, 15 then, to the first witness, Mr. Brad Livingston. He's 16 the Executive Director of the Texas Department of 17 Criminal Justice. Mr. Livingston, we're privileged to 18 have you here. 19 MR. LIVINGSTON: Thank you, 20 Mr. McFarland. Before I give my formal remarks, I know 21 you have a number of our staff scheduled to testify 22 over the next two days. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. I'm wondering if 24 you all can hear. I'm going to swear everybody in. Do 25 you need to -- Jim, can you hear him back there? You Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 11 1 could. All right. I'm famous for neglecting to swear 2 in the witness. If the three of you would please raise 3 your right hand. 4 (Witnesses complying.) 5 MR. McFARLAND: Do you solemnly swear or 6 affirm that the testimony you're about to give the 7 Panel will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing 8 but the truth, so help you God? 9 MR. QUARTERMAN: I do. 10 (Witnesses nodding head.) 11 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Livingston. 12 MR. LIVINGSTON: Thank you. Again, I 13 know you have a number of Texas Department of Criminal 14 Justice staff and others to -- sent to testify before 15 your Panel over the course of the next day and a half. 16 We have a number of other Texas Department of Criminal 17 Justice staff with us today. If you would permit me, I 18 would like to introduce the staff -- again, in addition 19 to those who are scheduled to testify. 20 Mr. Brian Collier, who is our Deputy 21 Executive Director; Dr. Remitlin, who handles the 22 Health Services Division; Dr. James Montross, the 23 Director of Mental Health and monitoring liaison within 24 the Agency. Tom Roddy is the administrator of the 25 Office of the Ombudsman. Sharon Howell, Director of Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 12 1 Legal Affairs from the Office of General Counsel. Ruth 2 Seller is Regional 5 Region Director. Rob Treeog is 3 the Region 1 Regional Director. Karen Haul is manager 4 within the executive administration. Tom Hunt, the 5 assistant warden to the Estelle Unit. Kevin Wheat, 6 assistant warden, Coffield Unit. Deborah Burkhart, 7 registered nurse at the Estelle Unit. Steve Miller, 8 major of correctional officers, Estelle Unit. Becky 9 Price, Deputy Director for Rehabilitation and Re-entry 10 Division, which her prior position was the assistant 11 director on classification of records; and Michelle 12 Lyons, Director of Public Information for the Agency; 13 Lynn Sharp, Victim PREA Coordinator for the Safe 14 Prisons Program. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you. Welcome to 16 all of you. 17 MR. LIVINGSTON: I'd like to begin my 18 remarks. First, I would like to thank you for working 19 with us in scheduling this hearing. It's been, I know, 20 a chore trying to get all our schedules nailed down. 21 We had a board meeting this morning in Austin and right 22 after that meeting ended, we hopped on a plane and made 23 it here as quickly as we could. But, again, I 24 appreciate your willingness to work with us on our 25 schedules. As you know, my name is Brad Livingston. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 13 1 I'm the Executive Director of the Texas Department of 2 Criminal Justice and today I'm here representing both 3 the Agency and our nine-member governing body, the 4 Texas Board of Criminal Justice. On behalf of those 5 entities, I want to thank you for, again, holding this 6 hearing at a time that we could all be here and make 7 certain we have the right staff here to provide 8 testimony. More importantly, though, I want to 9 communicate to you our commitment to operate a 10 correctional system which is both safe for staff and 11 for offenders. 12 We recognize that sexual assault and 13 other abusive sexual conduct in prison is no less 14 serious than other acts of violence and welcome a 15 discussion of the challenges facing Texas Department of 16 Criminal Justice and other correctional agencies as we 17 all strive to address these problems. Let me begin 18 briefly by describing our Agency's mission and 19 organizational structure to establish some context. 20 The Texas Department of Criminal Justice 21 is responsible for the operation of secure correctional 22 facilities and institutions housing felony offenders 23 sentenced by the courts or more commonly known as 24 prisons or incarceration function. We're also 25 responsible for the direct supervision of parolees, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 14 1 offenders who are under direct parole supervision, and 2 we are indirectly responsible for the supervision of 3 felony and misdemeanor probationers. The reason why I 4 use the term "indirectly" is that our Agency, our 5 governing body, adopts the rules and promulgates 6 standards and allocates funds and provides training to 7 local probation departments in Texas known as Community 8 Supervision and Correctional Departments. The actual 9 supervision, though, of probationers is done by 10 employees of those jurisdictions. 11 There are roughly 120 local probation 12 departments scattered throughout the State, but we do 13 have indirect responsibility in that regard. For a 14 moment, I'll outline the Board of Criminal Justice 15 because we have a somewhat unique organizational 16 structure in Texas. The Board of Criminal Justice 17 consists of nine public members appointed by the 18 Governor. 19 It serves as a policy-making and 20 oversight board and appoints the executive director, 21 who is responsible for the day-to-day operations of the 22 Agency. The Board members, who receive compensation 23 for expenses but no salaries, are, however, supported 24 by a small administrative staff as well as the Office 25 of Inspector General and the Internal Audit Division. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 15 1 The Office of Inspector General consists primarily of 2 licensed peace officers who investigate allegations of 3 criminal conduct and serious violations of Agency 4 policy to include every allegation of sexual assault. 5 The Inspector General is appointed by and reports to 6 the Board. Likewise, the Internal Audit Division 7 consists of professional staff who audit the Agency's 8 operations, and the Internal Auditor is also appointed 9 by and reports to the Board. 10 I should emphasize the important role 11 played by the Office of Inspector General in 12 investigating allegations of sexual assault and the 13 role of another independent entity, the Special 14 Prosecution Unit, in prosecuting sexual assault cases. 15 While I'm not going to discuss their role in detail, 16 because you have both Mr. Moriarty and Ms. DeBottis 17 scheduled to testify later in these proceedings, these 18 entities that are, in fact, independent of the Agency's 19 administration are a critical part of the State's 20 efforts to prevent, investigate and prosecute sexual 21 assault within the system. 22 I also want to note the actions of the 23 Texas Legislature. Prior to the enactment of PREA, the 24 Texas Legislature already mandated a Safe Prisons 25 Program within TDCJ to address issues of offender Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 16 1 sexual assault. While the Agency had many other 2 relevant policies and procedures in place prior to 3 legislative action, it does demonstrate their 4 recognition of the challenge we face. And in 1999, the 5 Agency suggested -- and the legislature enacted -- a 6 law that made it a felony offense for an employee or 7 other individual to have consensual sex with an 8 offender in custody. 9 In the most recent legislative session 10 just months ago, the Legislature codified the Agency's 11 administrative policy regarding zero tolerance toward 12 sexual assault. This action further demonstrates the 13 ongoing interest and concerns of Texas Legislature 14 regarding this issue. 15 Now, although not directly addressing the 16 issue of sexual assault, let me quickly add that in 17 2007, the legislative session, our Legislature also 18 approved the substantial expansion of the programs 19 intended to reduce recidivism and divert offenders from 20 incarceration in Texas which, in combination with other 21 factors, have addressed what was projected to be 22 significant growth in the offender population over the 23 next five years. In light of the responses to the 24 Bureau of Justice Statistics survey provided by 25 offenders at five of our maximum-security facilities, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 17 1 you undoubtedly have numerous questions. We would 2 like, first, to take a few minutes to briefly discuss 3 how the Agency's policies and organizational structure 4 address sexual victimization in the correctional 5 environment before fielding your questions. From the 6 time an offender enters our system and from the time an 7 individual accepts employment within the Agency, we 8 attempt to communicate our expectations for behavior 9 and our mechanisms for reporting behavior in violation 10 of our standards of conduct. 11 Offender population receives an 12 orientation and a handbook which addresses numerous 13 issues relating to incarceration, to include sexual 14 assault and sexual misconduct. The employee receives 15 our ethics policy and standards of conduct for which he 16 or she must acknowledge receipt in writing. The 17 employee is also provided a "1-800" phone number for 18 the Office of Inspector General to report criminal 19 violations as well as waste, fraud and abuse. 20 This communication continues throughout 21 incarceration for offenders and employment for staff 22 through the use of peer educators for offenders and 23 pre-service and in-service training for our 24 correctional staff, as well as through use of other 25 means of communication such as prison newspaper, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 18 1 prominently displayed informational posters in all 2 recreational facilities and the employee newsletter. 3 For a moment, I'd like to address our organizational 4 structures. The organizational structures in place for 5 receiving and investigating allegations of physical and 6 sexual misconduct to include a grievance system, 7 Ombudsman, administrative monitor of use of force are 8 long-standing Agency practices, some dating back to 9 reforms implemented in response to the Ruiz litigation 10 in the 1980s. None of these Agency administrative 11 functions report to the division responsible for prison 12 operations. 13 There are many individuals on our units 14 who do not work for the Agency to include the Office of 15 Inspector General investigators, health care providers, 16 Windham School District personnel, contract personnel 17 or Agency volunteers. Offenders may choose to report 18 allegations to any of those as well as to TDCJ staff. 19 Our Safe Prisons Program involves a 20 coordinated effort to integrate a number of things, to 21 include education, training, classification, security, 22 monitoring, medical and investigative functions in a 23 matter which promotes -- in a manner which promotes 24 offender safety. It contains many of the elements that 25 may be common in most prison systems such as the use of Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 19 1 an offender classification system to place offenders in 2 appropriate custody and housing assignments; an 3 administrative process for investigating allegations of 4 life endangerment and other threats to safety, which 5 includes separating the offender from general 6 population while an investigation is being investigated 7 and while an allegation is being investigated. 8 The use of housing and work assignments, 9 unit transfers, safekeeping status, protective custody 10 and in some rare cases interstate transfer to enhance 11 offender safety; the reporting, tracking and analysis 12 of alleged sexual assaults and other serious incidents; 13 and utilization of psychologists, chaplains and social 14 workers to serve as victim representatives during 15 forensic medical exams. 16 We also have benefitted from several 17 grants received from the Office of Justice Programs, 18 which have been used in a variety -- for a variety of 19 purposes to include the purchase of additional 20 surveillance cameras, the hiring of Certified Sexual 21 Assault Nurse Examiner, or a S.A.N.E. nurse, to 22 coordinate sexual assault examinations. 23 That is a very brief and high level 24 overview of the Safe Prisons Program, but 25 Mr. Quarterman and Mr. Stacks will discuss the Safe Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 20 1 Prisons Program in greater detail. In concluding my 2 remarks, I would like to say this Agency and its 3 governing board and I am personally committed to 4 providing a safe environment for offenders and staff 5 within the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. I was 6 surprised and disappointed to see the response from 7 offenders in five of TDJC facilities included in the 8 survey, particularly given the extensive efforts we 9 have made in this Agency with respect to encouraging 10 reporting and education and training of both offenders 11 and staff. 12 I understand the reason for providing 13 anonymity to the respondents; however, it does limit 14 the ability of this Agency or the Office of Inspector 15 General to address and investigate these allegations. 16 Thank you for your time, and Mr. Quarterman and 17 Mr. Stacks are available to provide their testimony at 18 this time as well. 19 MR. McFARLAND: I wonder if we could just 20 direct a couple of questions to the director and 21 then -- 22 MR. LIVINGSTON: Whatever your preference 23 is. 24 MR. McFARLAND: I take it from your 25 testimony, you're well familiar with the Bureau of Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 21 1 Justice Statistics report of December of last year. 2 MR. LIVINGSTON: Yes, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: And you've seen the -- 4 what it says about five of your units, how -- you know, 5 saying that in the Estelle Unit where we were, that 6 15.7 percent of your approximately 3,000 inmates there 7 in 2006 state that they were sexual victims either of 8 staff or inmate-on-inmate; half of them by staff, a 9 little over half by fellow inmates. And then it goes 10 on down the line that the Clements facility, 13.9 11 percent with a -- I saw the majority of the -- by 12 staff, and 9.9 percent Allred, 9.5 percent Mountain 13 View, 9.3 percent Coffield whereas the U.S. average was 14 four and a half percent. So, my question is: How do 15 you -- What do you make of that? How do you explain 16 that -- those extraordinary numbers? 17 MR. LIVINGSTON: That's a very good 18 question. One of the things we have been doing in 19 response to the survey results in December is try to 20 decompress the meaning. Dr. Vega has provided some 21 additional information, back-up in detailed information 22 pursuant to the data, and we've been sorting through 23 that. I will say, as I mentioned in my testimony, that 24 it's a significant disconnect for us given that our 25 Office of Inspector General pursues and investigates Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 22 1 every allegation that we receive for -- within our 2 system. And it's also -- again -- was a surprise to 3 us, particularly in light of the fact that this Agency, 4 over the last several years, has been extraordinarily 5 aggressive in participating in Safe Prison Programs and 6 seeking and receiving grants from the federal 7 government to add resources and training efforts within 8 this Agency, both in terms of training staff, 9 training -- providing peer educators for offenders. 10 In some ways, one of the things that we 11 have looked at over the past several weeks is our 12 offender population have been very, very sensitized to 13 these issues in part because of the efforts that we've 14 made over the last several -- several years. 15 It's clear to us that they have an avenue 16 for reporting any allegations and it's -- Again, it's a 17 surprise to us that the rates of self-identified 18 victimization occurred in that survey. I think there 19 are a number of factors, one of which is the 20 significant efforts on our part, I think, to make 21 prison rape an issue on the forefront within the Agency 22 through our Safe Prisons Program. 23 I also think that given you're talking 24 about five maximum-security facilities, in the five 25 that we are here discussing over the next day and a Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 23 1 half, maximum-security facilities are facilities where 2 you would expect to have a more difficult population to 3 deal with. You also have significantly more strip and 4 pat searches in maximum-security facilities. In fact, 5 Dr. Beck, in his testimony before this Panel in 6 Washington, D.C., indicated that pat searches and strip 7 searches are an area that is still up in the air in 8 terms of how much of an impact that may have had and 9 the fact that offenders do not obviously like pat 10 searches or strip searches. 11 How much did that skew their report? I 12 know -- I think everybody in this business understands 13 and recognizes that there are instances, some cases 14 significant instances, of false reporting, and I also 15 know that there is certainly a phenomena of under 16 reporting. I mean, I will not back pedal from that. 17 However, I think it is not methodologically rigorous to 18 assume that under reporting and false reporting net out 19 to zero. I think, frankly, we just don't know. 20 I think, based upon the experience that 21 many of the TDCJ staff have who will be appearing 22 before you over the next day and a half, would suggest 23 that instinctively our sense is that false reporting is 24 considerably higher than under reporting. But, again, 25 I don't think there's a way you can methodologically Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 24 1 determine that with certainty. But I think, in part, 2 the BJS study makes that assumption because it 3 absolutely is convenient for -- and tidy for 4 statistical analysis. There's probably no single 5 reason why the numbers showed up as they did. We 6 certainly have taken, and will continue to take, those 7 results seriously. Mr. Quarterman and his division 8 staff have continued to assess the culture at those 9 units and will continue to do so in an aggressive 10 fashion. I know that will be part of his dialogue and 11 discussion as well. 12 MR. McFARLAND: I'm not sure I understand 13 your answer, then. You mentioned that perhaps there's 14 over reporting and perhaps that's due to the fact that 15 you have a Safe Prison Plan. I'm not sure how having a 16 Safe Prison Plan would make it more likely that inmates 17 would exaggerate the amount of sexual activity going 18 on. You mentioned that the five units are more -- 19 involve more serious offenders, and I guess the bottom 20 line I'm trying to figure out is, just from the head of 21 the organization, do you believe this report? Do you 22 believe that this Department has a serious problem with 23 staff and inmate-on-inmate sexual misconduct? 24 MR. LIVINGSTON: No, I do not. I would 25 not characterize it as a belief. My sense is this: No Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 25 1 criminal justice system or prison system is free of 2 sexual activity and sexual assault within their 3 jurisdiction, and we certainly would not claim to be. 4 We have an extensive reporting system within our State 5 that is, to a large extent, independent of the 6 employees that manage and operate our units and that 7 being the Office of Inspector General. The numbers 8 that are generated through that process after, again, 9 several years of very intense education and analysis 10 and opportunities for offenders to know how to report 11 incidents, the two sets of numbers just don't match. 12 Okay? 13 Now, again, one of the reasons why I 14 think you might see that at five maximum-security 15 facilities where more difficult offenders are, there 16 may well be the -- Again, it's clearly a circumstance 17 where more strip and pat searches occur on 18 maximum-security facilities, and I think it's important 19 to recognize that fact may well skew those numbers, 20 particularly as it relates to the assertions of 21 staff-on-offender sexual contact. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I think this is a 23 very important threshold issue as to whether the head 24 of the organization believes that there's a serious 25 problem. The Department has -- I think I would speak Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 26 1 for Ms. Ellis as well -- one of the most impressive 2 policies and plans on paper that I've ever seen. It 3 leaves no stone unturned. It's comprehensive. It's 4 careful. It's clear of zero tolerance and it's very, 5 very impressive and I know -- realize that litigation 6 has no little part to motivate the Department in that 7 direction. 8 MR. LIVINGSTON: If I may, I want to 9 clarify because I don't want to leave you with the 10 impression that we don't take it seriously or believe 11 there are no challenges in this organization. I 12 believe your first question, though, was do I believe 13 the numbers in the report -- in this survey. Okay? 14 And that is a real disconnect for me, and in a narrow 15 sense in answering that question, the answer is "no." 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. I appreciate that. 17 Let me just -- Before we hear from Mr. Quarterman, 18 Ms. Ellis has some questions. Let me just ask, as you 19 know we asked -- Your Department's been very responsive 20 to our document request to turn things around the same 21 day; very, very helpful. And we received last night 22 the number that -- We couldn't find any reports of 23 staff-on-inmate sexual incidents at the Estelle Unit, 24 not a single one, and we want to make sure we weren't 25 just missing something. And Mr. Quarterman was good Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 27 1 enough to provide us with the information last night; 2 that the reason why we don't have it is because there 3 are no reports and, yet, we have -- at the Estelle Unit 4 in 2006 -- and, yet, the inmates at Estelle indicate 5 that 7.6 percent of the total population, or 6 extrapolated among your count there, 208 individuals 7 say they've been hit on by a staff member in a 8 nonconsensual or abusive way just in that year, so 9 we've got zero versus 206 -- or 208, rather, and that's 10 why hearing that there are lots of ways they can report 11 doesn't necessarily help us get at the problem because 12 if they're reporting on staff-on-inmate assaults, it's 13 not surprising that those reports never quite make it 14 up the chain to the OIG's office. 15 I'm sure we'll get into the reasons here, 16 but I just wanted to understand from you, sir, whether 17 you -- about while you -- and I hear you saying that 18 you dispute that it's as high as 15.7 in Estelle or 9.9 19 at Allred, but you can concede that there is a serious 20 problem in the Department that needs to be addressed. 21 Have I understood your testimony correctly? 22 MR. LIVINGSTON: I guess the way I would 23 characterize that is, I would concede that incidence of 24 sexual assault in all prison systems is a challenge 25 daily that us rigors have to face and deal with and Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 28 1 grapple with. I think we have a system in place that 2 goes a long ways towards that. I would never suggest 3 that we have it solved or that there are not challenges 4 remaining in front of us. I would also suggest that we 5 are not here in a posture suggesting that the survey 6 provides no useful information because I think that it 7 can and does. It's limited in its usefulness in that 8 it cannot give us the ability to drill down and 9 investigate certain individual specific cases. 10 However, our commitment is to always strive to improve, 11 in talking today, prison rape and sexual activity 12 within the correctional setting. 13 We intend to continue to make our prison 14 system more safe and it is an ongoing challenge for 15 this Agency. If you would like to use the word 16 "serious," certainly that's the Chair's prerogative. 17 It's not the term I would use, but it's clearly a 18 challenge for every prison in the country, including 19 ours. 20 MS. ELLIS: Thank you, Mr. Livingston. 21 Certainly on a pleasant note for me, I was pleased to 22 see that one of your board members is Janice Harris, 23 who is a victim advocate and can fully understand 24 sexual assault and other victimizations as well. The 25 question that I have is: What was the impact of this Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 29 1 report throughout the State as far as employees are 2 concerned? What have they been saying about it? What 3 are their reactions? 4 MR. LIVINGSTON: I can certainly give you 5 my perspective based on the staff I talked to, and 6 certainly my perspective differs from that of other 7 employees in our organization that are lower in -- 8 actually on the ground where the work is done, but, 9 again, it's one of surprise, it's one of frustration, 10 because the employees of the Texas Department of 11 Criminal Justice are extraordinary proud of the system 12 we run and are very dedicated public servants, and the 13 efforts that we have engaged in over the past several 14 years to, first, align our policies in a coherent, 15 collected manner to represent a Safe Prisons Program. 16 Again, as I mentioned in my testimony, 17 many of those policies and procedures were already in 18 place, but clearly if you're going to focus on one 19 area, in this case prison rape, and have your Safe 20 Prisons Program, it's important to have all of those 21 policies and procedures synthesized and we've done 22 that. In addition to that, we have -- I don't want to 23 repeat myself, but we have done a lot of work in this 24 arena. So, frankly, the -- several staff that I have 25 had ongoing dialogue with about this survey has been Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 30 1 one of surprise, and we have -- Certainly it's our 2 objective to continue improving. I do not want to 3 infer at all that this set of survey results are 4 unimportant to us. On the contrary, they're very 5 important to us. We have taken them seriously and will 6 continue to do so and in an attempt to improve this 7 Agency. 8 MS. ELLIS: So in the grand scheme of 9 things, in terms of everything that you have to be 10 concerned about in running an operation of this 11 magnitude, sexual assault and matters related to 12 sexuality are at the top of your list or -- 13 MR. LIVINGSTON: I guess the way I would 14 frame it is this: Anybody who has listened to me talk 15 at all for the last three years knows I have 16 consistently said the two most urgent operational 17 challenges for this Agency are, one, correctional 18 officer staffing and, two, managing offender population 19 growth. And those are the two operational challenges 20 that we face daily. 21 Those are two challenges that are likely 22 to be at the top of almost any director's list across 23 the country. But as it relates to the issues of staff 24 and offender safety, I would characterize it more 25 broadly than that. Staff and offender safety within Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 31 1 our system at our units is very, very high on our list 2 of priorities, day-to-day, day-in and day-out on our 3 units, and within staff and offender safety is 4 absolutely the issue of sexual assault. 5 MS. ELLIS: In terms of staff safety, 6 staffing matters related to your staff, do you have a 7 physical fitness requirement for your employees? 8 MR. LIVINGSTON: No, we do not. 9 MS. ELLIS: Why not? 10 MR. LIVINGSTON: There are a number of 11 things that we have done over the years with respect to 12 pre-employment exams and so forth. Frankly, to the 13 extent that we put in an extraordinarily rigorous 14 physical requirement, we would have difficulty 15 attracting as many applicants as we have in some -- 16 not -- in some cases not because people would fail to 17 pass it, but they're just, in some cases, not willing 18 to take it. 19 It is very difficult in the correctional 20 environment to recruit routine staff, and our 21 recruiting processes have been open full throttle for a 22 number of years. We have done everything we know to 23 do. In fact, as recently as this morning, our board 24 approved salary adjustments for the earlier runs in the 25 career ladder within our correctional series for our Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 32 1 staff. That is just one step of many that we have 2 taken, probably the most meaningful from the standpoint 3 of salary and so forth. This Agency -- and, again, as 4 others -- have and continue to struggle with staffing. 5 MS. ELLIS: Short of a requirement for 6 physical fitness, what else -- or what have you done to 7 encourage your employees to work out and be aware of 8 health issues related to overweight? 9 MR. LIVINGSTON: We have had, for a 10 number of years, a Wellness Program and certainly 11 encourage staff to participate in that program. 12 MR. QUARTERMAN: Can I expand on that? 13 MR. McFARLAND: Please. 14 MR. QUARTERMAN: We're in the process now 15 where we challenge our employees to go out and exercise 16 between the breaks and at the end of the challenge, at 17 the end of the month, we all get the community to 18 travel to Austin to compete in our 10(k) race for all 19 state employees and that's part of our women's program. 20 We encourage weightlifting. We encourage all types of 21 activities -- golf -- lots of activities; some of it's 22 unit based. We have some exercise areas in some of our 23 facilities, but it's encouraged. It's not mandated, 24 but it's encouraged. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Livingston, you're Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 33 1 short about 4,000 correctional officers? 2 MR. LIVINGSTON: Roughly 3,600. 3 MR. McFARLAND: So when you come in front 4 of the legislature around appropriations time, you're 5 going to tell them that your top operational concerns 6 are the staff-to-inmate ratio, staff issues, and the 7 growth and population which remains -- Is that your 8 testimony? Those are your two top operational 9 concerns, the number of staff and the number of the 10 ever increasing flow of new inmates? 11 MR. LIVINGSTON: I would -- Essentially, 12 yes, but I would frame it slightly differently because 13 two things. One, while we can compute and do compute 14 the staff-to-offender ratio, our staffing approach is 15 not predicated on this -- gaining this specific ratio. 16 However, salary issues and staffing issues have been an 17 ongoing dialogue between myself and senior leaders 18 within the Agency and members of the legislature and 19 the Governor's office. 20 In fact, they were very instrumental in 21 approving the salary adjustments that I just referenced 22 a few minutes ago, and it relates to offender 23 population. The challenges in dealing with the 24 offender population dynamics are not always -- We're 25 not always in a growth posture. Okay? For example, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 34 1 when we were in front of the legislature last session, 2 the projections at that time indicated we would be 3 growing substantially. During the legislative 4 session -- I touched on in my testimony but did not 5 elaborate -- our legislature took a very aggressive 6 approach to providing resources for non-incarceration 7 alternatives to incarceration treatment; treatment 8 initiatives that were both targeted towards probation 9 and parole. 10 In addition to that, they provided 11 significant funding expansion for substance abuse 12 treatment in particular within the incarceration 13 setting, all with the intent and focus on reducing 14 offender populations in the State in an appropriate 15 manner. So, I think it's fair to say that both this 16 Agency and our legislature have been in productive 17 dialogue as it relates to those two challenges. It's 18 not to suggest they've been totally solved. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Will sexual assault be on 20 that list in front of the legislature as well, sir? 21 MR. LIVINGSTON: Again, I'm -- As I 22 pointed out in the answer to the previous question, I 23 think safety issues within our prison system is always 24 an issue. It's not necessarily a budget issue, but we 25 are absolutely focused and committed to making sure Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 35 1 that we have the safest prison system we can have, and 2 to the extent as we develop our budget request for the 3 upcoming -- there are items for inclusion that we think 4 will enhance the safety of our system, we will most 5 certainly include them. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Quarterman, thanks 7 for your patience. 8 MR. QUARTERMAN: Good afternoon. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Good afternoon. 10 MR. QUARTERMAN: Did you enjoy your tour? 11 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you very much for 12 the tour. Your staff is outstanding. 13 MR. QUARTERMAN: I submitted a written 14 testimony. I will not read it. I just want to kind of 15 go over some highlights and -- 16 MR. McFARLAND: Can I just make sure that 17 you all can hear? Can you all hear Mr. Quarterman? 18 Okay. 19 MR. QUARTERMAN: And I'd like to drill 20 down on some information that we talked about earlier. 21 First, I'd like to talk about Estelle. That's one of 22 the -- because you visited today. In preparing for 23 this hearing, I had an opportunity to go to D.C. and 24 visit and observe some of the hearings in other states, 25 and I was very -- very informative, very educative Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 36 1 information that was given about some procedures in 2 other states. I really appreciate that. It brought in 3 some enlightening things that I saw states were doing. 4 That was really great, so that was great to be a part 5 of that. In preparing that -- those documents, I tried 6 to make sure that we had all the people that you 7 requested, and I think we have done close to what you 8 wanted, but what I'd like to do is drill down on the 9 Estelle information that you requested and one is the 10 safekeeping. 11 The safekeeping population at Estelle 12 is 4.6 of that population on safekeeping. The average 13 age of Estelle is forty-two. We have 40 percent black, 14 27 percent Hispanic and 33 percent white. Sixty 15 percent of the population of Estelle are violent 16 offenders. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Sixty percent violent? 18 Okay. 19 MR. QUARTERMAN: Estelle is a 20 telephone -- I explained the telephone-type design. We 21 have several of those types of facilities in our 22 system. It's one of the last ones that came along back 23 in 1985. 24 MR. McFARLAND: And they were replaced 25 with a dormitory sort of design. Is that correct? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 37 1 MR. QUARTERMAN: They were replaced with 2 what we call our maximum-security 2250 model unit type. 3 They're unique and I will talk about those because the 4 next unit is Clements Unit. Clements/Allred Unit are 5 of that design, that new design that was started in 6 1990. The Clements Unit is 9.9 percent mental health. 7 They have a program called -- They do a lot of psych 8 services there, so it's a very unique mission of that 9 facility. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Would it be fair to say 11 among the more vulnerable populations in prison are 12 mentally ill offenders? Is that correct? 13 MR. QUARTERMAN: No doubt, but they're in 14 a very protective program and -- but the average age at 15 Clements is forty-years-old. Forty percent are black, 16 29 percent are Hispanic, 30 are white. Seventy-three 17 percent of the population there are violent offenses. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Seventy-three. 19 MR. QUARTERMAN: Seventy-three. It has a 20 little bit more technology, less blind spots. It was 21 designed for high security. It's somewhat of a modern 22 design. The Allred Unit is 7.2 of safekeeping. 23 MR. McFARLAND: What was the safekeeping 24 in Clements? 25 MR. QUARTERMAN: Clements does not have Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 38 1 safekeeping. They have the mental health offenders. 2 They do not have safekeeping. 3 MR. McFARLAND: But for the 90.1 percent 4 who are not mentally ill or have mental challenges -- 5 MR. QUARTERMAN: 9.9 of them are in the 6 Mental Health Program at the Clements Unit. 7 MR. McFARLAND: So for the ninety percent 8 that aren't in the Mental Health Program, where do they 9 go if they need to be protected from a predator? 10 MR. QUARTERMAN: We put them on 11 facilities that we have safekeeping, then we 12 transfer -- 13 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, you transfer them to 14 another unit. 15 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes, sir. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Allred has 7.2 percent of 17 safekeeping? 18 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes, sir, and the 19 average age is thirty-nine years of age. Thirty-eight 20 percent are black, 32 percent are Hispanic, 30 percent 21 are white. Seventy-two percent of the inmates are -- 22 violent records are -- 72 percent are violent crimes. 23 The Mountain View Unit is our female unit. It has a 24 protective custody wing that has 2.3 of their 25 population. They have no safekeeping. The average age Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 39 1 is thirty-nine. Thirty-eight percent are black, 32 2 percent are Hispanic, 30 percent are white. 3 Seventy-two -- 71 percent are violent crimes. 4 MR. McFARLAND: And that's almost 5 identical to Allred. 6 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah. That particular 7 facility was a TY facility -- TYC facility back in the 8 '70s. It was given to us in the '80s. It's more of a 9 campus-type style, cottage and campus-style dorms. 10 MR. McFARLAND: It's dorm-style and not 11 cell. 12 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes. 13 MR. McFARLAND: It's all female? 14 MR. QUARTERMAN: All female. 15 MR. McFARLAND: What's the count at 16 Mountain View today? 17 MR. QUARTERMAN: Six hundred, and it also 18 houses our death row. 19 MR. McFARLAND: The female death row? 20 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes. The Coffield Unit 21 has no safekeeping. The average age is thirty-seven. 22 Forty-three percent are black, 29 percent are Hispanic, 23 29 percent are white. They have a 68 percent violent 24 offense. That is a wagon-wheel design. It was built 25 in the '60s and it's kind of like a wagon-wheel Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 40 1 design -- unique. We have two facilities are close to 2 that design -- very unique. It's very different, all 3 those facilities. I won't get into a lot of Brad's 4 testimony, but I'd like to say -- make a couple 5 comments on the survey. I was involved in a lot of the 6 preparation of the survey, had opportunity to go to 7 D.C. and look at the logic of the survey and be a part 8 of that venture and what we try to do -- When it came 9 back -- When we knew the survey was going to happen in 10 our facilities, we wanted to make sure that we had a 11 good turnout. 12 We wanted to make sure the inmates were 13 free to come out and available for the auditors, and I 14 saw the numbers of how many people showed up, how many 15 people came out, and we had a high number of turnout. 16 We had a lot of inmates that turned out. We wanted to 17 make sure that we had that free access to get to the 18 auditors to do that survey because we love -- I like 19 surveys. 20 I love audits because it makes us better, 21 and we wanted to see how we were measuring and I'm just 22 like Mr. Livingston. I was very shocked with the 23 results, and I had an opportunity to look at some 24 drill-down information and you made a question -- a 25 question to Brad, Mr. Livingston, is concerning the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 41 1 staff-on-inmate allegations at Estelle and I've been 2 spending a lot of time with the survey; been part of my 3 life for awhile since it's been published and -- 4 MR. McFARLAND: I know the feeling. 5 MR. QUARTERMAN: -- and I have been 6 drilling down on the information because most surveys 7 we have had in the past will give you lots of 8 direction, you know. It gives me places where I can 9 put the right effect or make that change in our policy 10 or in any security measure that I have to do. This 11 particular survey was vague and, yet, gave me very 12 little direction, and when we talk about the 208 total 13 staff victims -- inmate victims -- 14 MR. McFARLAND: Inmate victims, yeah. 15 MR. QUARTERMAN: -- relating to staff -- 16 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 17 MR. QUARTERMAN: -- the survey did give 18 me some information. The information it gave me, that 19 it happened from midnight to 6:00, so it tells me it 20 was on my third shift. It also indicates to me that 21 nearly all my victims but one were African American. 22 It made me believe that it was African American. It 23 made me believe from the survey about -- was the person 24 involved in this rape or alleged having sex were of the 25 same race. It leaves me to believe that it's -- my Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 42 1 officers were black females and it leaves me to believe 2 that those incidents occurred in the cell, not in 3 living area, not in dayrooms, not in kitchens -- in 4 cells -- and I know my officers. I walk my facilities 5 quite often. It's hard to believe that the total 6 number is true, but I do know that it's not absolutes 7 with this, and I do know that the survey did give that 8 direction. So, I just wanted to bring that to your 9 attention and lean some weight on that part of the 10 survey, and this is drill-down information that I have. 11 You may not have. 12 I'd like to -- I would like to pass on 13 to -- Mr. Stacks will be talking more about some of our 14 pre-initiatives in detail. I think you had -- got 15 exposed to a little bit of that today, but it's a lot 16 more to share with you and he will be going into that 17 particular deal, so I -- 18 MR. McFARLAND: Let me make sure I 19 understand your comments about the Estelle Unit and the 20 specific drill-down, as you said, statistics that the 21 Bureau of Justice Statistics provided. The -- and I'm 22 looking at a table that was produced by BJS about each 23 of the units and the victims of nonconsensual sexual 24 acts shows that if it has a solid black dot, it 25 indicates the most frequent category. It doesn't mean Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 43 1 it's the majority. It means the -- Obviously if 2 there's -- If there are five different races, then if 3 it's -- For example, in this case, the victims are a 4 black dot for both white and non-Hispanic as well as 5 black or African American, non-Hispanic, so if -- I 6 don't know what information you might be looking at, 7 but that's -- It is not painting a picture of the -- of 8 solely black or solely white female victims/male 9 victims, but rather several races. 10 MR. QUARTERMAN: According to the circle 11 that's not bold, it basically says one or less. Then 12 with the bold, it says more or less, and that's pretty 13 much my interpretation of the survey. And looking at 14 the survey and when it looked at African Americans, it 15 shows a bold dot. It also shows a bold dot for -- 16 where the predator of the same race that you were and 17 it shows a bold dot, so when you look at that -- and 18 this is the reason why the information is so broad. It 19 doesn't give me a lot of direction, you know, and 20 that's what I was saying. It doesn't give me a lot of 21 direction to do some corrective measures. That's all 22 I'm basically saying. 23 MR. McFARLAND: All right. I don't want 24 to take the time to argue over the dots and the 25 numbers. Suffice it to say that I'm looking at the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 44 1 same table and respect to staff-on-inmate -- with 2 respect to staff-on-inmate victims, it's not 3 applicable. There are no dots at all because they 4 don't list a staff predator. They don't list the race. 5 That's irrelevant. It's a felony and -- Anyway, we'll 6 talk off-line about it. 7 MR. QUARTERMAN: We'll talk about it. 8 MR. McFARLAND: But I trust that -- Let 9 me ask you: Do you -- What level of weight and concern 10 do you place on the results of this survey? Is this a 11 top priority? Is this interesting, but not -- 12 MR. QUARTERMAN: Well, I can tell you 13 from my standpoint, as the director of the institution, 14 you know, my obligation is a financial obligation to 15 stay within budget, but mine is for security and the 16 safety of those facilities and I rank them this way. I 17 look at -- My homicides is number one thing that I want 18 to prevent from happening. I don't like suicides, for 19 my second thing, and sexual assaults. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 21 MR. QUARTERMAN: All of those are high, 22 high priority things and they're a way of our life. We 23 want to have zero tolerance, so they're very high. I 24 want an operation that we can have a safe place where 25 we can do some good things. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 45 1 MR. McFARLAND: Great. Thank you. 2 MS. ELLIS: Let me follow up. Is it your 3 sense that inmates see sexual assault and matters 4 related to sex as all consuming for them? Is it high 5 on their list? Is it a major part of the culture? 6 MR. QUARTERMAN: I think being a Texan -- 7 and if you don't mind. Being a Texan and raised in 8 Texas, as a kid I was told, "Stay away from prisons or 9 things will happen to you," by my grandmother, 10 grandfather, my mother, my father. That's a culture 11 that we would love to change and we are changing. I do 12 believe the inmates may believe the same thing. They 13 may believe the culture's there and that's why we do 14 all our of education; that's why we try to bring it to 15 life, that you don't have to come to prison, you don't 16 have to be subject to that. That's very important. 17 MS. ELLIS: Subject to what, sir? 18 MR. QUARTERMAN: Subject to pressures of 19 being -- the thought of being pressured to have sex, 20 unwanted sex, but I think the image and the way media 21 portrays prisons, people come to prisons from -- 22 Inmates, when they come to prisons, they're thinking 23 that this is something big on their mind. You know, 24 did I explain that clearly to you, ma'am? 25 MS. ELLIS: Pardon? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 46 1 MR. QUARTERMAN: Did I explain it clearly 2 to you? 3 MS. ELLIS: Yes. Thank you. 4 MR. McFARLAND: I'm not sure I 5 understand. 6 MR. QUARTERMAN: Okay. 7 MR. McFARLAND: I understand that there's 8 plenty of fear of going to prison and there's fear that 9 you'll be assaulted in prison, but you, as the head of 10 the institutions, aren't suggesting that that's just 11 prison life and that includes sexual assault and just 12 that's part of the preventative impact of crime 13 avoidance, if they know that stuff like that will 14 happen in a Texas prison. That's not what you're 15 saying. 16 MR. QUARTERMAN: I'm not saying that. 17 I'm saying that we don't want that concept; totally 18 opposite of what you're saying -- what we are trying to 19 portray to our inmates coming in. We don't want them 20 to think that way. 21 MS. ELLIS: But is it reality? 22 MR. QUARTERMAN: I hope it's not a 23 reality. I won't say absolutely things don't happen in 24 Texas, but I would say that our staff are trained -- 25 and Mr. Stacks will talk about some of our training; Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 47 1 have a lot of initiatives to get away from that 2 thinking, you know. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you, 4 Mr. Quarterman. Mr. Stacks. 5 MR. STACKS: Good afternoon. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Welcome. 7 MR. STACKS: My name is David Stacks and 8 I serve the Correctional Institutional Division at the 9 Texas Department of Criminal Justice in the capacity as 10 Deputy Director of Management Operations, and I too 11 appreciate this opportunity to visit with you this 12 afternoon. I'd like to take a moment and provide the 13 Safe Prisons initiatives and the history of our Safe 14 Prisons Program as well as how other departments 15 underneath my purview integrate with each other. 16 As a Deputy Director of Management 17 Operations, my areas of oversight provide both 18 direction and support to the operational staff in the 19 facilities. In the Correctional Institutional Division 20 are the departments of Correctional Training and Staff 21 Development, Plans and Operations, the Safe Prisons 22 Program, Community Liaisons, Security Threat Group 23 Management Office of which I am responsible. From the 24 time a newly hired officer enters our Agency doors, our 25 training staff begin teaching him or her their duties Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 48 1 and responsibilities towards creating a safe prison 2 environment. Each officer undergoes four hours of 3 training during their pre-service in areas such as 4 sexual assault, offender protection and extortion. 5 Likewise, when the newly received offender is admitted 6 into the Agency, the offender is educated on numerous 7 topics about prison life in our orientation process. 8 This orientation process is provided directly to 9 offenders by our employees as well as other relevant 10 information through DVD program and peer education. 11 Training development continues for both 12 staff and offenders. Staff attend in-service learning 13 how to conduct a thorough protective investigation and 14 a refresher on safe prisons each year, forty hours of 15 in-service training. Offenders are given information 16 on safe prisons upon assignment to their new 17 assignments or their units. As staff are promoted to 18 each supervisory level, they are also given additional 19 training on Safe Prisons. These departments work 20 together. 21 Plans and Operations develop policy. 22 Safe Prisons conducts statistical analysis of alleged 23 sexual assaults; monitors each alleged incident to 24 ensure Agency compliance with current policies; 25 identifies these issues for further policy development; Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 49 1 and facilitates training and awareness programs for 2 staff and offenders. The Security Threat Group 3 Management Office is responsible for overseeing the 4 Security Threat Group monitoring process; providing 5 information as needed to unit, regional and executive 6 staff; networking the city, county, state and federal 7 agencies; and training for Agency staff and outside law 8 enforcement entities. 9 Correctional Training and Staff 10 Development provides not only training for incoming 11 employees, but also continuing training on a yearly 12 basis for all our security staff. The Plans and 13 Operations, Security Threat Group and Safe Prisons make 14 recommendations to Correctional Training on areas that 15 need more emphasis to our pre-service, our in-service 16 participants. They base recommendations on what they 17 see coming in from the field. 18 Correctional Training, Security Threat 19 Group and Safe Prisons all make recommendations to 20 Plans and Operations as well concerning policy, whether 21 to clarify an area of policy or noting items that don't 22 seem to be working as well as previously designed. 23 Security Threat Group and Safe Prisons' staff are very 24 dependent upon one another. They are both 25 investigative bodies that coordinate with the Office of Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 50 1 Inspector General. Mr. Moriarty, our Inspector 2 General, I believe will be testifying tomorrow. The 3 first formal policy on placement of offenders into 4 safekeeping or protective custody was completed in 5 1990. While still under the federal jurisdiction that 6 was mentioned earlier, this policy was extensively 7 revised in 1999, codifying for the first time all of 8 the options that a unit had for assisting an offender 9 who had protection needs. 10 At that time, it was determined we needed 11 to make sure our message was being clearly 12 communicated, to reiterate and re-emphasize the 13 cultural change. Staff and offenders were told, in no 14 uncertain terms, that an offender deserved to complete 15 his or her incarceration in safety. They were told 16 that an offender's life does not have to be in danger 17 to obtain protection. An offender does not have to be 18 assaulted before receiving protection. 19 Staff has been instructed that an 20 offender should not have to fight a predator in order 21 to receive protection. Staff has been instructed that 22 an offender -- Excuse me. The threat and other 23 circumstances may in itself be enough. We agree sexual 24 abuse should not be a way of life in prison. Often 25 seen as a precursor or a companion to sexual abuse is Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 51 1 extortion. It was also targeted with a policy 2 completed in 1998. To this end, the Unit Extortion 3 Teams were established in 1999 and system-wide training 4 was conducted. These teams later on became known as 5 the Unit Investigative Team responsible for 6 investigating all Safe Prisons' issues on the unit. 7 As part of the cultural shift, it became 8 necessary to identify the attitudes of staff and 9 offenders as they relate to sexual assaults and then to 10 introduce education and training opportunities that 11 speak to these findings. The Texas Department of 12 Criminal Justice has adopted an instrument called the 13 Unit Cultural Profile. I believe you're familiar with 14 this. 15 A UCP coordinator was hired through grant 16 funding that we applied for. The Agency anticipates a 17 complete -- upon completion of the grant period, 18 forty-four unit profilers. Abuse of offender by staff 19 is not only tolerated. As Mr. Livingston mentioned 20 previously, in 1999, the Texas State Legislature helped 21 emphasize this by making sexual conduct or contact with 22 an offender a state jail felony. Information was 23 placed in the Offender Orientation Handbook that 24 informs offenders that officers or staff may not 25 solicit offenders in any way for any type of sexual Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 52 1 favors. A list of options was provided to assist the 2 offender if confronted with this situation. Likewise, 3 in 1998, a shift of physical plant utilization was 4 made. In this shift, Agency leadership decided that 5 all safekeeping offenders were to be assigned to the 6 Michael Unit prototype facilities that was mentioned 7 earlier this afternoon. These facilities can more 8 physically separate safekeeping population offenders to 9 facilitate staff's ability to monitor these offenders 10 more closely. 11 In 1999, a pilot program was implemented 12 to install video camera surveillance on select units to 13 identify, investigate and prosecute aggressive 14 behavior. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Can I ask you there, 16 Mr. Stacks? 17 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. 18 MR. McFARLAND: There are video cameras. 19 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Are they videotape or -- 21 MR. STACKS: Some of -- They do. Some of 22 them do have DV-- or digital video recorders. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Is it 24/7 tape or -- 24 MR. STACKS: No, sir. They are 24/7, 25 those that do the digital video recording, and they Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 53 1 automatically record after a certain time period. 2 After thirty days, they go back. It gives us an 3 opportunity to -- If a grievance is filed or a letter 4 is filed or a verbal communication to a staff member, 5 we can take the facts that the inmate may bring to us. 6 We can go back immediately -- Go back to that timeframe 7 and see. If the camera is overseeing the area where 8 the allegation is made, we can go back and try and 9 validate the inmate's allegation. 10 MR. McFARLAND: So you keep the tapes for 11 thirty days? 12 MR. STACKS: That's correct. 13 MR. McFARLAND: And are there videotape 14 capabilities in any of the five units that we're 15 talking about? 16 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. They're in all 17 five. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Well, they're not in 19 Estelle. 20 MR. STACKS: They are not. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Only -- 22 MR. STACKS: That is correct. You are 23 correct. Estelle does not have it. You are correct. 24 You are correct. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Who would be the person Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 54 1 with the most direct responsibility for the video 2 surveillance in the other four -- 3 MR. STACKS: As far as archiving that? 4 The archiving of that? 5 MR. McFARLAND: Who would be most 6 knowledgeable about where the video cameras are, 7 whether they have just live feed or videotape and how 8 they're restored and archived? 9 MR. STACKS: Each of our unit wardens 10 will be testifying in the morning. They will speak to 11 that for you, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Thank you. Please 13 continue. 14 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. In 2000, video 15 cameras were installed on additional units, many of 16 which contain video recording capabilities that were 17 just mentioned. Cameras continue to be installed on a 18 yearly basis as funds are funded or as permitted. In 19 fiscal year 2007, there was 135 video surveillance 20 cameras that were installed. 21 In fiscal year 2006, the initiative to 22 facilitate cell observations was implemented and Lexan 23 cell-front doors were manufactured and installed by the 24 Texas Department of Criminal Justice, Manufacturing and 25 Logistics Division. The purpose, to enhance the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 55 1 ability of the central security officer to visually 2 supervise offenders. This enhancement allows the staff 3 to increase their ability to detect assaults or suicide 4 attempts and respond accordingly. As all of you are 5 aware, offender safety is not just an issue for 6 security staff. Everyone needs to work together as a 7 team; that includes security staff, treatment staff and 8 medical staff. To this end, grant funds were secured 9 through the grant process and a Sexual Assault 10 Examination Coordinator, who is a licensed registered 11 nurse, was hired. 12 As part of assisting offenders who have 13 been assaulted, TDCJ conducted its first victims 14 representation training in 2000. When an offender 15 alleges a sexual assault, the offender is offered a 16 victim representative to be present with the offender 17 during the examination. The representative may provide 18 the offender with counseling and other support services 19 as well as providing the offender with the Sexual 20 Assault Awareness Procedure Brochure and the rights of 21 the crime victims. 22 The representative must be a 23 psychologist, sociologist, chaplain, social worker or a 24 case manager who has completed the Texas Department of 25 Criminal Justice Sexual Assault or Victim Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 56 1 Representation training. Counseling is also available 2 through Health Services. If the offender declines a 3 victim representation, or a forensic medical 4 examination is not appropriate due to time lapse prior 5 to the reporting, the shift supervisor will provide the 6 victim with the proper information. Offender awareness 7 is key to preventing sexual assaults, we believe. 8 In addition to the other educational 9 initiatives, too numerous to mention in this timeframe, 10 in fiscal year 2006, a Peer Education Program was 11 conducted to inform offenders in sexual assault 12 awareness. I believe the Correctional Institution 13 Division has taken aggressive steps to heighten staff 14 and offender attention to Safe Prisons to help us 15 achieve a zero tolerance goal on our prison rape. 16 The Correctional Institution Division 17 takes advantage of every possible opportunity to learn 18 more about new initiatives, obtain funding for 19 implementation, send staff to specialized training -- 20 anything that will help us attain our goals of Safe 21 Prisons. We are glad to hear any feedback that you 22 might have on our initiatives, and I would like to take 23 on your comments or questions at this time. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you. 25 MS. ELLIS: You talk about changing Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 57 1 institutional culture. I noted from the information 2 that you provided that there's a discussion of a change 3 in institutional culture from a vacated crime that they 4 deserve what they get and that it was important to 5 the -- from the public culture along the same lines in 6 order for this change to successfully take place. I'm 7 wondering if you feel that you have successfully 8 moved/shifted the institutional culture regarding 9 sexual assault. 10 MR. STACKS: I certainly hope that we 11 have been successful in changing that culture. I 12 believe that's an ongoing challenge that we have 13 depending on the maturity of individuals that come to 14 work for us, maybe from the different cultures they 15 come from. The bottom line, I believe, ma'am, is the 16 fact that we have to demonstrate not only by our talk 17 and by our walk and our actions that that is 18 unacceptable behavior; that there should not be any 19 type of opportunity for an inmate to sexually assault 20 themselves or staff sexually assault an inmate. It's 21 demeaning. It's dehumanizing. I don't think it has -- 22 is less of an impact on an individual in prison as it 23 would be in their house had they been assaulted, so I 24 certainly hope that we are making a significant change 25 in our staff's view of how important this issue is. We Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 58 1 believe, and I believe, we are. 2 MS. ELLIS: Mr. McFarland certainly 3 indicated that you have very impressive training 4 programs on paper. What is the biggest challenge in 5 implementing these policies into the every day life in 6 prison? 7 MR. STACKS: I was a warden for sixteen 8 years -- and one of the things that I always tried to 9 tell my staff because they do have a stressful job -- 10 is they do not let their personal feelings get involved 11 in their professional decisions, and you have to be a 12 very strong person to overcome some of the abuses that 13 staff may face, whether that be feces or urine thrown 14 on them, be cursed beyond maybe what they've ever been 15 told before. And one of the things that I've 16 constantly told the staff that I worked with then, and 17 still do now in the training sessions that I direct, is 18 that we have to keep our standards way aboveboard. 19 We have to take our profession -- 'cause 20 if Hollywood would have it, corrections is not a very 21 good profession to be in. We are looked upon as, I 22 guess Paul -- might say, and that's certainly is not 23 the case in the correctional field and the people that 24 I associate with. So, I believe it's an ongoing 25 challenge to talk about and demonstrate it. Hold Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 59 1 people accountable in a way that they address 2 themselves, the way they carry themselves, the way they 3 interact with inmate population. 4 MS. ELLIS: The con games, manipulation 5 and fraternization, the eight-hour training that staff 6 receive on these issues certainly seems to be heavily 7 weighted against inmates and grand manipulators. An 8 example is the phrase describing an inmate waiting to 9 manipulate a staff. Does this entirely support the 10 Department's goal to shift the culture? 11 MR. STACKS: The Training Department, it 12 is my belief -- I became the training director a little 13 over two years ago and I received the current position 14 I hold now. One of the things that I wanted to do when 15 I came to the Training Department was to make our 16 training program more robust, have it more of a program 17 where it was more hands-on training. It was not 18 classroom instruction. It was actual workshops, things 19 of that nature; try to bring what the realities are, 20 what these men and women have to face with every day. 21 Terminology of that nature is to allow 22 them to understand that the inmate -- For instance, 23 it's very common that we have inmates that appear to 24 be -- It's their nature to try and target new officers, 25 and when they see the new officers, it is very common Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 60 1 for them to come up to the officer and try to present 2 themselves in a way that they are not really, to try 3 and turn the offender or -- excuse me -- the officer. 4 That's one of our biggest problems is educating our 5 officers so that they know that they have to keep their 6 guard up and keep that professional line drawn between 7 them and the offender. It's clear that we need to make 8 sure -- and we do teach our staff -- that we didn't 9 hire them to be a chaplain; that they were hired as a 10 correctional officer. We didn't hire the correctional 11 officer to be a sex therapist. We didn't hire the 12 correctional officer to be a counselor. We hired a 13 correctional officer to be a correctional officer. 14 I have instructed staff my entire career 15 that we would expect them to emulate the behavior that 16 they would want the inmates to emulate. If they were 17 married, then they should act like they're married. If 18 they are a Christian, they ought to act like a 19 Christian; if they are whatever faith they may be, for 20 that matter. If they are law-abiding citizens, which I 21 know that they are, they need to verbally discuss that 22 and carry themselves as such, so that's how we go about 23 that. 24 MS. ELLIS: Your training certainly 25 includes videos and scenarios and definitions and I Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 61 1 think a good bit of it is excellent. On the other 2 hand, it seems to me that it might be more than eight 3 hours put across the level of training you have here 4 and the amount of information as well, and how often 5 are the refresher courses required and, additionally, 6 are there opportunities for staff to then discuss some 7 of these issues in an informal setting? 8 MR. STACKS: Well, that's one thing maybe 9 I failed to clarify; that in our training sessions, in 10 our pre-service and our in-service trainings, we 11 have now -- instead of more of a lecture series -- we 12 have a small-group and large-group discussions about 13 various situations that may occur, they might be faced 14 with on a unit. We started that roughly two years ago. 15 To me, most people are visual learners 16 and they're more active learners when they're actually 17 involved as opposed to just sitting and being read to 18 or listened to. So that was the approach that I 19 brought to the Training Department, to have them more 20 actively involved in their training. 21 The thing I would like to point out, 22 Ms. Ellis, is that these four hours I spoke to on the 23 pre-service, those four hours consisted of sexual 24 assault training, life endangerment and -- training, 25 but also in that pre-service academy, we do have eight Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 62 1 hours of the -- so I just want to share that that -- 2 that all of those four classes are very, very similar 3 and they overlap one another in a lot of their 4 exercises because obviously the offender who is 5 practicing the art of the con, he's wanting something 6 obviously. He's wanting maybe sex. He may be wanting 7 money. He's trying to turn that officer so that 8 officer feels more compelled to work for the inmate as 9 opposed to the Department. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Livingston. 11 MR. LIVINGSTON: Yes. Thank you. I'd 12 like to elaborate on that because I think this is an 13 important point, too, as it relates to the culture and 14 our hard work over the years in changing that culture 15 and in some cases stereotypes that are generated by the 16 media. Now, to your point as it relates to staff and 17 the training. Certainly there's a balance to be 18 struck, but I don't believe that it's mutually 19 exclusive to, on the one hand, give our staff the tools 20 they need to recognize that they are dealing daily with 21 dangerous offenders, many of whom are manipulative. 22 I don't think it's mutually exclusive to 23 give them the tools to do that and do their job 24 properly and at the same time avoid having the 25 attitude, "You're a convicted felon, so what you did, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 63 1 you have coming." Okay? So, I don't think those are 2 two mutually exclusive concepts. Clearly you have to 3 strike a balance, but I also want to point out that I 4 think as any criminal justice system and corrections 5 system deals with stereotypes as it relates to what you 6 expect in prison, and as we educate both staff and 7 offenders and the public, it's not a light switch. 8 It's a continuum. We certainly will never say, "We're 9 there." In other words, having turned the light switch 10 on, but at the same time I believe we're significantly 11 culture-wise ahead of where we were at, say, ten years 12 ago. Frankly, as we continue down this path, a few 13 years from now, I would like to think that we will 14 continue making improvements in both the operations and 15 the -- That's the elaboration I wanted to add. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Well, let me just open up 17 to the whole Panel now, any of these questions. You 18 mention safekeeping and as I -- as we saw at Estelle 19 Unit, there's no physical difference between a 20 safekeeping cell and a general population cell block. 21 Is that correct? What makes it safekeeping is the 22 level of scrutiny or oversighter's supervision. Is 23 that correct? 24 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah. And safekeeping 25 offenders are housed together and they live together Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 64 1 and they rec together. That's the only difference. 2 MR. McFARLAND: So the line of sight -- 3 The supervision or the physical three-tiered cell block 4 we saw looks just the same as the -- The K Unit looks 5 the same, the -- 6 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And so how many -- 8 During the first shift, how many -- and if this is more 9 in the weeds, I can ask the warden, but I think this 10 is a safekeeping issue brought up and I think it's a 11 very important one. How many staff do you have on a 12 normal cell block during the first shift? Does that 13 vary between what and what? 14 MR. QUARTERMAN: I think that's a good 15 question for the warden to talk about their staffing 16 per cell block. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Do you expect that 18 there are more correctional officers looking at 19 safekeeping cell blocks than there are in the general 20 population cell blocks? 21 MR. QUARTERMAN: It depends on the level 22 of safekeeping. Our safekeeping does have levels, even 23 in safekeeping, and it depends on what levels they're 24 keeping you on. And if you're at a high risk, you're 25 going to have more officers. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 65 1 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. I noticed in 2 the -- Are any of you particularly conversant with the 3 transient status, in other words, policy? And this is 4 4.03 in the policies that you produced and it talks 5 about unit classification procedures that -- and the 6 importance of keeping track of how many inmates are 7 mishoused, how many cannot be correctly housed due to 8 lack of bed space in their assigned custody level. 9 Okay? Is that the proper definition of mishousing? 10 MR. QUARTERMAN: I think you're going to 11 have Joni White that will appear -- 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. All right. At 13 your level, though, is -- Who is responsible for 14 monitoring the IUCR 580, this computer print-out that 15 is available weekly to assist in the monitoring of 16 mishoused offenders? Does that get to your level, or 17 does that stay with the unit? 18 MR. QUARTERMAN: It's done in both -- in 19 several levels. It is a unit responsibility in 20 managing on a daily basis, but it does have checks and 21 balances in our bureau classification. And then, 22 again, Joni White will be very able to talk to that. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Is that information 24 useful to you in your planning to know how many times 25 you have inappropriately housed prisoners in the wrong Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 66 1 custody levels for thirty days or less or more than 2 thirty days? Is that a statistic that you find 3 important in your strategic planning for future bed 4 space? 5 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes, sir. It's very 6 important, designating housing. We designate housing 7 based on that activity, yes, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And, Mr. Stacks, you have 9 talked about training and how -- whether it's four 10 hours or eight hours or both. Are they tested? Are 11 your correction officers tested on their knowledge and 12 understanding, particularly of the sexual assault 13 curriculum? 14 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. 15 MR. McFARLAND: They are. 16 MR. STACKS: They are. 17 MR. McFARLAND: And what implications 18 does their testing have, if any, for their promotion or 19 their salary? 20 MR. STACKS: We have a -- Well, 21 concerning their promotions or their salaries, there is 22 none that I'm familiar with. 23 MR. McFARLAND: So they could have 24 training and flunk the test and it would have no 25 implications for their future. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 67 1 MR. STACKS: It could result in some 2 administrative sanctions against that employee. You 3 know, let's talk -- Are we talking about in-service or 4 pre-service? 5 MR. McFARLAND: Let's talk pre-service. 6 MR. STACKS: If it's pre-service, they 7 have to academically pass all their tests to continue 8 their employment with the Agency. Once they -- 9 MR. McFARLAND: I thought Mr. Livingston 10 said there used to be pre-service testing in 11 thresholds. Was that just physical -- 12 MR. LIVINGSTON: Physical fitness. 13 MR. McFARLAND: All right. So there is a 14 test that the graduates of the six-week academy need to 15 take before they can -- 16 MR. STACKS: That's correct. It's an 17 academic test. It's not a physical test. 18 MR. McFARLAND: And are there questions 19 about sexual assault on that test? 20 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. I believe that 21 all of the curriculums are discussed on the test and 22 are tested on that. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And after they get 24 in, let's say they pass that, what is the incentive for 25 a correctional officer to stay awake during the four Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 68 1 hours, or whatever number it is, on in-service training 2 on sexual assault? 3 MR. STACKS: Well, obviously there are 4 repercussions. If they do not pass the in-service 5 class, then our Training Department notifies their unit 6 of assignment, their administrator, their warden, who 7 can take employee sanctions against them. It could 8 be -- If it's a first-time offense, it might just be a 9 verbal reprimand and then we have a progressive 10 disciplinary process for employees who choose to own up 11 and the employee chooses to learn the information that 12 we need him to know or her to know. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Would Mr. Bales be the 14 best person to ask about how many folks -- how many 15 officers have actually been disciplined in any way for 16 failing to pass their in-service sexual assault? 17 MR. STACKS: No, sir. He would not have 18 that information. I can try to get that information 19 before the end of tomorrow. 20 MR. McFARLAND: If that's not too much 21 trouble, that would be great. I'd be curious to know 22 how many officers have had any repercussions for 23 failing the sexual assault portion of the in-service 24 testing. That certainly sends a message, if there are 25 such cases. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 69 1 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. 2 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Livingston, what's the 3 gender breakdown across the board in your prisons? 4 MR. LIVINGSTON: In terms of the 5 employees? 6 MS. ELLIS: Male/Female. 7 MR. LIVINGSTON: In terms of our 8 correctional staff, it's almost exactly 60 percent, 40 9 percent; 60 percent male, 40 percent female. I'm 10 rounding. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Stacks, you talked 12 about staff by "turn" or "be turned." 13 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. 14 MR. McFARLAND: In other words, might 15 provide contraband to an inmate or provide sexual 16 favors to an inmate. What's your understanding of the 17 profile of an officer who is most likely to turn or be 18 turned? Who are you most concerned about? 19 MR. STACKS: My observations -- 20 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry? 21 MR. STACKS: My observations have been 22 employees who don't want to have a lot of 23 self-confidence such as low self-esteem, appear to be 24 targets, that I've seen inmates target, whether that be 25 something physical about them. I mean, it can be Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 70 1 anything, I guess, but most of the individuals that 2 I've come to see get in this predicament are people who 3 have had some financial issues possibly. They have 4 some self-esteem issues, some of them have a 5 preconceived idea that they're going to use this to 6 their advantage. That's a difficult one to find. 7 MR. McFARLAND: What, a staff member 8 thinks they're going to use this -- 9 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. Coming to work 10 for us with intentions of maybe get him through our 11 processes of employment because maybe want to -- maybe 12 sympathizing with a gang. That's possible. 13 MR. McFARLAND: What about the -- I'm not 14 sure I understand the financial issues. If somebody 15 was hurting, was in debt, how would that -- one of your 16 staff members -- how would that encourage them to get 17 sexually involved with an inmate? 18 MR. STACKS: I'm not referring 19 necessarily sexually. I'm talking about as far as 20 making money. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, providing contraband. 22 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. That's what I'm 23 referring to. I was addressing your contraband a 24 minute ago. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Okay. All right. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 71 1 Specifically, do you have a profile of staff members 2 who are most likely to turn and get involved 3 romantically or sexually with an inmate? Have you 4 thought it through? "Hey, this is the profile. These 5 are the folks we need to -- on our staff that we need 6 to be particularly watching out for because they're -- 7 you know, this is the profile," male versus female, 8 young versus older, divorced versus married, gay versus 9 straight? 10 MR. STACKS: Speaking from my 11 observation, sir -- and I mentioned earlier. The 12 officer that carries themselves in a very professional 13 manner -- 14 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 15 MR. STACKS: -- I very seldom see those 16 individuals be approached by an offender. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Is it true that 18 there's a very high turnover rate in the Department? 19 MR. STACKS: Higher than we would like, 20 yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And is it true 22 that quite a few -- of course, that's a relative 23 term -- but quite a few of your female officers are -- 24 their resignations are accepted or they're shown the 25 door? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 72 1 MR. STACKS: We have -- We have a high 2 acceptance rate of that, yes, sir; not only just 3 female, but we have males as well. 4 MR. LIVINGSTON: Mr. McFarland? 5 MR. McFARLAND: Sir. 6 MR. LIVINGSTON: In terms of the numbers 7 we had for last fiscal year, among our correctional 8 staff, our turnover rate was 24 percent, and for those 9 in the first twelve months of employment it was 43 10 percent. 11 MR. McFARLAND: First how many months? 12 MR. LIVINGSTON: Twelve months, first 13 year. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Does that seem 15 extraordinarily high to you? 16 MR. LIVINGSTON: It's much, much higher 17 than we like to be. That explains, to a certain 18 extent, why we've worked very hard to make some of the 19 adjustments I spoke to earlier with respect to salary 20 in the early months. 21 MS. ELLIS: In all of the discussions, 22 Mr. McFarland opened characteristics of manipulative 23 offenders and he -- 24 MR. McFARLAND: I was talking about staff 25 that were being turned. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 73 1 MS. ELLIS: I know, but I'm going to make 2 a shift to that in this way. That you find one of 3 the -- quote, a heart breaker -- an individual who made 4 promises or suggests a lasting relationship or perhaps 5 marriage after they were released with a staff member, 6 and then you talk at that length -- extremely 7 helpful -- about these manipulative types may be -- 8 easily act alone. They usually have more important 9 jobs and even prepare staff to recognize that they may 10 accidently touch them or feed into something that they 11 have and then you emphasize that that staff member is 12 the responsible partner in those relationships. Have 13 you found this to be a situation or a major problem? 14 MR. STACKS: I have seen some employees 15 who have been caught in that situation where they work 16 with an offender closely, where an inmate may purposely 17 bump into an employee, or maybe like in the kitchen, 18 serving a plate of food or something, you know, 19 purposely touch their hand just to see what type of 20 reaction they get from the employee. Obviously we tell 21 our staff that that's -- They should never accept that 22 as acceptable behavior from an inmate; that they need 23 to put the inmate on notice that they are not to touch 24 them in any way because if they don't, then here's what 25 the inmate takes it as being, that it's acceptable. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 74 1 And then that typically leads to another more, I guess, 2 outward approach by the inmate for that employee. 3 MS. ELLIS: Does this seem to happen more 4 in terms of male, females? 5 MR. STACKS: From my experiences, I would 6 say that it's females. 7 MR. McFARLAND: I wanted to ask, 8 particularly Mr. Quarterman, following up on something 9 Mr. Livingston and I talked about. The survey 10 extrapolates that there are 208 victims of 11 staff-on-inmate sexual conduct in Estelle, and you 12 provided us information last night that there was not a 13 single case reported at Estelle in that same year. How 14 do you account for such a huge disparity in the 15 allegations, zero reported officially, 208 as far as 16 the survey's concerned? 17 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah. Those 18 staff-on-inmate assaults that we reported zero were 19 based on information from OIG. 20 MR. McFARLAND: But they ought to -- 21 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah, but we do have 22 employees that leave maybe under investigation, under 23 pressure. 24 MR. McFARLAND: So they wouldn't have 25 been counted if they were caught and given the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 75 1 opportunity to resign rather than be prosecuted or 2 disciplined? 3 MR. QUARTERMAN: They could have left. 4 They could realize that they were getting down that bad 5 road and they left. 6 MR. McFARLAND: So is that a "yes"? 7 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah. 8 MR. McFARLAND: You allowed staff to 9 commit sexual assault on an inmate, and if caught, 10 resign without further implications? 11 MR. QUARTERMAN: That's absolutely not -- 12 What I'm saying is that our employees can quit at will. 13 MR. McFARLAND: They can quit at will 14 even if they commit a felony? 15 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes. Anyone can quit 16 their job. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Okay. That's fair 18 enough. They can quit. 19 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah. 20 MR. McFARLAND: And so you're saying that 21 what you provided to us last night, that there are no 22 reported staff-on-inmate incidents. 23 MR. QUARTERMAN: I reported that we have 24 never disciplinaried a person on our Code 42(d) at 25 Estelle Unit. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 76 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 2 MR. QUARTERMAN: I did report three in 3 the system, but I reported zero at Estelle; that we -- 4 the warden disciplined for a 42(d). 5 MR. McFARLAND: Which is sexual 6 misconduct with an inmate. 7 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah. We don't have any 8 that year, 2006, that we ran disciplinary on; not 9 saying that some of those folks could have quit, you 10 know. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Do you know how many quit 12 under circumstances in which you were about to -- in 13 which you had reason to believe that there was an OIG 14 investigation to go forward? 15 MR. QUARTERMAN: That's information I 16 couldn't get to you right away, but I'm working on that 17 and I'd like to get that to you. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, we only 19 asked you that on Tuesday afternoon, so -- 20 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah, but you need that. 21 I knew that. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. That's a helpful 23 explanation. So do you have any other explanation for 24 how the survey suggests 208 folks -- inmates are 25 involved with staff and you have no -- not a single Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 77 1 case in that same year, at the same unit, of 2 disciplinary action being taken against the staff for 3 that infraction or that -- 4 MR. QUARTERMAN: No, sir. Only to say 5 that the only bit of evidence from the survey's that 6 cell block -- single-cell activity on the facility, 7 that these things occurred in the cell block. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 9 MR. QUARTERMAN: That's the only bit of 10 information that I have to narrow it down. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Well, don't we also -- 12 Can't we also imply that there may be a major 13 disconnect in the reporting process, the 14 implementation? It looks great on paper. 15 MR. QUARTERMAN: And we also can put away 16 the strip search and pat search probability that could 17 be causing offense to an inmate -- can be very 18 offensive to an inmate. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Well, you're going to 20 have a grievance on that, aren't you? 21 MR. QUARTERMAN: Not necessarily so. 22 MR. McFARLAND: If an inmate thinks that 23 a male or female officer was unnecessarily probing 24 around his genitalia, he's going to file a grievance in 25 a heartbeat, isn't he? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 78 1 MR. QUARTERMAN: Not necessarily. I 2 would think they would, but not necessarily. That will 3 be -- 4 MR. McFARLAND: In your experience, in 5 your many years in this Department, inmates file 6 grievances about their oatmeal being too cold, isn't 7 there? 8 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: All right. So if 10 somebody thinks that they got patted down in an 11 improper way, they're going to let you know about it. 12 Isn't that fair? 13 MR. QUARTERMAN: I hope so. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. So that's -- The 15 survey doesn't seem like a plausible explanation, does 16 it, for why the inmates say you got a massive epidemic 17 of sex going on between inmates and staff and not a 18 single person has been disciplined on the staff the 19 same year, in the same unit, and it's not a function of 20 grievances getting lost or these guys being bashful 21 about filing grievances. I'm just not understanding 22 what your -- what meaning you have here studying the 23 survey as closely as you have and living with it for 24 the last three months. What have you concluded about 25 the effectiveness of the reporting process in your Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 79 1 Department? Doesn't it show a major rupture? 2 Something's not getting implemented in that excellent 3 paper process. Is that the most -- Isn't that the most 4 plausible method of an explanation? 5 MR. LIVINGSTON: Mr. McFarland, I'm not 6 sure that that necessarily follows that. I think a 7 couple of things, and I don't necessarily think that 8 strip searches and pat searches necessarily would show 9 up in a grievance if, in fact, if the vast majority are 10 done properly. Okay? But that does not mean that in 11 responses to this confidential survey, that offenders 12 didn't register their general dislike of strip and pat 13 searches in a way that would deem the Agency. 14 MR. McFARLAND: That's true. 15 MR. STACKS: And I think no one knows to 16 what extent that occurred. Dr. Beck, who obviously 17 knows more about the survey than I do, he conducted the 18 report and he himself has indicated that that's just an 19 unknown right now in terms of what impact that would 20 have, and so I would think -- I'm certainly not going 21 to speak for him, but as it relates to the general 22 perception of pat and strip searches, even though they 23 are done properly -- and I think that, again, may 24 explain why you wouldn't have, for example, a large 25 number of grievances, but, again, it is a disconnect. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 80 1 I won't sit here today and tell you we have connected 2 the dots because we have not. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I appreciate 4 your -- that last comment. I think as you've looked at 5 the drill-down information about each of these five 6 units, you see that the units that are heavy on staff 7 and inmate misconduct, it's not about pat-downs. The 8 single most frequent SOI is frequently willing sexual 9 activity and you wouldn't describe that as a overly 10 fresh pat-down. We're talking about something going on 11 in the closet or behind the laundry or in the law 12 library or what have you -- willing. It's legally a 13 felony. It's not consensual, but it's willing, 14 according to these inmates. 15 They're not talking about pat-downs here, 16 so I guess we've exhausted the subject as much as we -- 17 We can bring it up with some of the other staff as 18 well, but I'm still not clear as to what top leadership 19 is thinking is the explanation for how it can be such a 20 remarkable disparity between what the survey indicates 21 and what -- and the complete absence of a single 22 disciplinary action against anybody in that same unit, 23 same year. If there's anything that occurs to anybody, 24 you know, or if I'm missing something, if you all 25 could -- You know, we're trying to explore this Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 81 1 together. I'm not trying to prosecute or anything. 2 I'm trying to find out where it's broken. 3 MR. QUARTERMAN: In the survey, sir -- 4 and the survey also said that a lot of them say they 5 didn't report it because they didn't want to get the 6 officer in trouble. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Right. That doesn't 8 sound like a pat-down, either. 9 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah, seem like it's 10 unknown, you know. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Didn't want to get in 12 trouble because he's got something going on with the 13 female inmate -- female staffer. And let me just ask 14 one last question. In your experience, what happens 15 once you've turned an officer whether it's for 16 contraband or for sex? What is your concern, if any, 17 about that officer and his or her effectiveness, 18 honesty and ability to continue to abide by the rest of 19 your rules? Do you have any concerns about that 20 officer? 21 MR. QUARTERMAN: We hope that if we come 22 to the conclusion that we have about an officer, he's 23 terminated. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. I'm not asking 25 about what you do about him. I'm saying, what is Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 82 1 your -- Do you have any concern? Isn't it -- 2 MR. QUARTERMAN: He's a threat. 3 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry? 4 MR. QUARTERMAN: If that person is a 5 threat -- 6 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 7 MR. QUARTERMAN: -- yeah. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Once he or she is 9 compromised, then that inmate has him or her in the 10 palm of his hand, isn't that fair, because you got a 11 lifer who is -- we talked to today, you know. He just 12 had a good time in the closet and now he can get her to 13 provide drugs, alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, what have 14 you, or she's gone. I mean, one kite to the -- to 15 another CO, she is gone. I mean, is it my 16 understanding the culture there in these units, once 17 compromised, they are putty in the hand of the, quote, 18 victim? 19 MR. QUARTERMAN: I believe that it's a 20 threat to security, yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Why don't we pause 22 and take a fifteen-minute break? I want to thank 23 Mr. Livingston, Mr. Quarterman and Mr. Stacks. Thank 24 you very much for your testimony. 25 (Break taken.) Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 83 1 MR. McFARLAND: Let's get started here. 2 Our next panel, we're pleased to have Ms. Carma Blount. 3 MS. BLOUNT: Charma. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Charma, just like it 5 looks. 6 MS. BLOUNT: Just like it looks. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Charma Blount from the 8 Estelle Unit and Mr. Ralph Bales. Good afternoon. The 9 program specialist PREA coordinator from the 10 Department. Would you mind raising your right hand? 11 (Witnesses complying.) 12 MR. McFARLAND: Do you solemnly swear or 13 affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the 14 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so 15 help you God? 16 MR. BALES: I do. 17 MS. BLOUNT: I do. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Thanks. 19 MS. ELLIS: Ms. Blount, S.A.N.E. nurse. 20 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, ma'am. 21 MS. ELLIS: How long have you been 22 trained as a S.A.N.E. nurse? 23 MS. BLOUNT: Since 2005. 24 MS. ELLIS: Since 2005. How many are 25 there in the entire prison system who are trained to Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 84 1 your extent? 2 MS. BLOUNT: I have knowledge of at least 3 four. 4 MS. ELLIS: Four. 5 MS. BLOUNT: They are not specifically in 6 the capacity as working as a S.A.N.E. nurse. They're a 7 staff nurse and they work outside the hospital as a 8 S.A.N.E. nurse. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Ms. Blount, can you slide 10 the microphone over towards you? Okay. Thanks. 11 MS. ELLIS: What are your duties as a 12 S.A.N.E. nurse at Estelle? 13 MS. BLOUNT: First off, I'd like to 14 clarify that I do not work at the Estelle Unit. I work 15 for the Health Services Division, which is the 16 preventive medicine from the Department of Correctional 17 Justice. My capacity in that is I implement and 18 develop a program to do statewide training to the 19 health care providers in the efficiency or proficiency 20 in doing sexual assault examination by exhibiting a kit 21 to them, a step-by-step on what is actually done. 22 Also, the importance of evidentiary collection as well 23 as maintaining the evidence integrity of that evidence 24 and chain of custody and about the law of PREA, 25 introducing PREA to them, explaining to them that it is Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 85 1 the law. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Including the Estelle 3 Unit? 4 MS. BLOUNT: I do it with the health care 5 providers on all the units, and that would consist of 6 the physicians and mental providers such as nurse 7 practitioners and physician assistants, the nursing 8 staff, the mental departments of corrections, whoever 9 wishes to attend my services. 10 MS. ELLIS: Do you have occasion to use 11 the rape kit on a victim of sexual assault? 12 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, ma'am. 13 MS. ELLIS: You have? 14 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, ma'am. 15 MS. ELLIS: Can you give us a general 16 idea of how many? 17 MS. BLOUNT: Approximately twelve. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Ms. Blount, so you're not 19 actually located at the Estelle Unit, but you visit all 20 the units in training their medical staff? 21 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, sir, I go statewide. 22 I've been to probably -- I've done two circuits 23 statewide. So far I've done, today, approximately 142 24 units with over 850 participants. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And when were you hired? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 86 1 MS. BLOUNT: Well, I actually already 2 worked there, but I took the training as a S.A.N.E. 3 nurse through the Office of -- Attorney General's 4 office in 2005. 5 MS. ELLIS: Have you had occasion to 6 testify in a case? 7 MS. BLOUNT: No, ma'am, not yet. 8 MR. McFARLAND: When a practitioner or a 9 provider, either doctor or nurse practitioner, 10 administers a rape kit, can you just walk us through 11 what you expect them to do procedurally? How -- You 12 know, an individual has just been brought to them at 13 2:00 in the morning claiming to have been raped, say 14 it's a male inmate at Estelle. What do you expect that 15 the nurse practitioner or the doctor or the physician 16 assistant would do at that point? 17 MS. BLOUNT: Well, per Policy G-57.1, 18 it is the responsibility that when -- there anyone who 19 makes the outcry for sexual assault that it will be 20 done immediately, so I expect that the provider, 21 whoever's on call, is to be notified, give an ETA, has 22 a right to do a forensic medical examination; however, 23 sometimes when there are times -- Sometimes when they 24 are asked to do a forensic medical examination, I 25 stress the importance to them to find out whether they Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 87 1 actually need a physical examination to determine 2 whether there's any injuries; first, inform them they 3 -- forensic medical examination at 2:00 o'clock in the 4 morning with an evidence collection kit. So once 5 that's determined, they do need a kit and they do show 6 up at that specific unit and start doing a 7 step-by-step, which is a thirteen-step collection kit. 8 And I can tell you the procedures for that, if you'd 9 like to know that. 10 MR. McFARLAND: I think we were provided 11 with some of that. 12 MS. ELLIS: Who else might be available 13 and with the victim throughout the examination or 14 immediately after the examination to help provide 15 support, emotional support? 16 MS. BLOUNT: The victim's representatives 17 are there throughout the whole examination. They can 18 provide for support while during the examination. 19 Afterwards, they're immediately referred to Mental 20 Health Services. Certainly if there's a crisis that 21 needs to be handled immediately and it's two o'clock in 22 the morning and no one's there to offer them or to give 23 them Mental Health Services, then it's up to the 24 discretion of the doctor to call the on-call 25 psychologist to possibly -- crisis management for their Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 88 1 health and well-being. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Is there a log of what 3 happens with each rape kit? 4 MS. BLOUNT: Sir, I'm not -- I do not 5 know. That's probably with the unit health 6 administrators once -- 7 MR. McFARLAND: When you're doing the 8 training, do you tell them, "Look, it's important to 9 keep a chain of custody on these things, and if you 10 take one, we want to know who you were using it on, so 11 you need to sign in some place and say, 'At 2:00 p.m. 12 on such-and-such a date, I so-and-so took this rape kit 13 and used it because of allegations of oral or anal sex 14 on so-and-so'"? Do you expect -- Is that the best 15 practice? Is that what you expect them to be doing? 16 MS. BLOUNT: Absolutely. They not only 17 document it in the electronic medical records, but 18 inside of the evidence collection kit itself there are 19 papers they have to fill out and that is scanned into 20 the medical records so that it can be used at any time 21 as well. 22 MR. McFARLAND: At any time. 23 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, sir. One of my duties 24 is to audit those records whenever there's allegations 25 made -- medical records and ensure continuity of care. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 89 1 MR. McFARLAND: So you ought to be able 2 to walk into any of these five units that we're talking 3 about and say, "Tell me the last time a rape kit was 4 used." 5 MS. BLOUNT: They wouldn't have to. I 6 keep those statistics, but I could, yes. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And would you 8 expect the physician on duty to have that information 9 at her fingertips if asked? 10 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, sir. I believe that 11 every facility, whether it's free-world hospital or 12 whether it's a facility where they do the examination 13 itself, has to keep those records. Those are legal 14 documents. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Do you know who the 16 doctor in charge at Estelle was before November of last 17 year? Who would have been doing the rape kits at 18 Estelle before November? 19 MS. BLOUNT: That -- No, sir, I don't, 20 because I'm not familiar with the staff. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. I don't expect you 22 to memorize all the staff. 23 MS. BLOUNT: I do know that it's not 24 specifically a medical director. I mean, a physician 25 can do these examinations. It could have also been a Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 90 1 nurse practitioner and/or a physician's assistant. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. The reason why I 3 ask is when we were at Estelle this afternoon, we went 4 to the Regional Medical Facility and asked that 5 question, "When's the last time a rape kit was used?" 6 Nobody could tell us, so they weren't aware of any log 7 that there would be of a rape kit. 8 MS. BLOUNT: I don't know what to tell 9 you, sir. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. But you could tell 11 us. 12 MS. BLOUNT: I certainly could. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Is that something that 14 you just pull up from the computer? "All right. At 15 these five units, the following number of rape kits 16 have been used over the last twenty-four months"? 17 MS. BLOUNT: Yes. 18 MR. McFARLAND: That'd be pretty easy to 19 do? 20 MS. BLOUNT: Yes. 21 MR. McFARLAND: If that's acceptable with 22 the Department, it'd be great if you would provide that 23 to somebody, maybe the warden -- one of the wardens 24 that's coming tomorrow or Mr. Quarterman. 25 MS. BLOUNT: I certainly will. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 91 1 MR. McFARLAND: Did you -- Do you have a 2 memo of understanding with -- dated September 5, '07, 3 with the Department which kind of spells out your 4 duties. Is that right? 5 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. I just want to 7 make sure so we don't have to review all those. Is 8 it -- Is there anything else that you do that isn't 9 described in that memo, I mean, generally? 10 MS. BLOUNT: What generally do you have? 11 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. It has six 12 bullets. That's what the Department does. "The nurse 13 will" -- three bullets -- "respond to a call for sexual 14 assault and examination when available within one hour, 15 plus distribute projected schedules of new availability 16 to UTMB staff at TDJC facilities within fifty miles of 17 hospital, and, thirdly, provide documentation that is 18 required to assure current licensure as a registered 19 nurse." Well, that doesn't really spell out what you 20 do. 21 MS. BLOUNT: That is just for sexual 22 assault examinations. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 24 MS. BLOUNT: Part of my other job duties 25 include doing presentations with peer educators -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 92 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 2 MS. BLOUNT: -- peer education programs 3 with the Safe Prisons Programs, training these Unit 4 Safe Prison coordinators at their trainings and also 5 with the victim's representative attorney. I introduce 6 the kits to them and tell them what goes on and the 7 continuity of care and issues and chain of custody. 8 MR. McFARLAND: I'm just curious because 9 this is just confined to your -- what you do with 10 respect to sexual assaults. And do you know why it 11 doesn't say anything about doing the training along 12 with the medical personnel and how to do the rape kits? 13 MS. BLOUNT: I am not a trainer as a 14 S.A.N.E. -- Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner's trainer, 15 and I am not able to do those kind of trainings. The 16 only thing I do is introduce the kit, go over 17 step-by-step with them so they know what's going on. 18 MR. McFARLAND: So -- All right. If 19 "trainer" is a term of art, then how do you describe 20 your duties with respect to educating other medical 21 professionals about rape kits? That's what you do. 22 MS. BLOUNT: That's what I do. 23 MR. McFARLAND: You tell them how to do 24 the rape kit? 25 MS. BLOUNT: I show them how to do a rape Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 93 1 kit. I go over the steps of a rape kit and for -- and 2 to clarify something. I always tell them I'm trying to 3 get "raped" out of the vocabulary so we can refer to it 4 as a sexual assault collection kit. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Why do we want to get 6 rid of the word "rape"? 7 MS. BLOUNT: Well, we don't want to get 8 rid of the word "rape." It is -- Whenever they come in 9 to do a trauma, they're going to have a rape kit done. 10 Whenever they walk in that door, we start dealing with 11 their crises. They know they've been raped and once 12 they're -- We don't make it go away, but we want to 13 make it a little easier on them, so we refer to it as 14 an evidence collection kit. 15 MR. McFARLAND: All right. I gotcha. 16 Okay. And in what -- How do you distinguish between 17 whether a assault kit should be done in-house, so to 18 speak, at one of the units versus send them out to an 19 ER and a hospital? 20 MS. BLOUNT: I do not do that. Policy 21 states that if the facility cannot do a sexual assault 22 examination in the facility, then they must be sent to 23 a facility that can, whether it's another like Estelle, 24 which is our regional medical facility versus the 25 outside free-world hospital. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 94 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And why wouldn't 2 you be able to? 3 MS. BLOUNT: Because I'm not a physician, 4 or I cannot make that determination. It's per their 5 policies whether to send them to Texas Tech, which is 6 the university. 7 MR. McFARLAND: No, no. I'm sorry. What 8 I meant was, what would happen such that a assault kit 9 could not be done on an inmate in a unit? It requires, 10 obviously, somebody with some expertise. You couldn't 11 get somebody there within a reasonable number of hours, 12 you should -- they should send it to the ER or what? I 13 don't understand. 14 MS. BLOUNT: I'm not sure I do, either. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So -- 16 MS. BLOUNT: Certainly life or death or 17 limb comes before the evidence collection kit, and if 18 they need to be stabilized and sent off the unit, that 19 needs to happen. 20 MR. McFARLAND: All right. 21 MS. BLOUNT: If a determination is made 22 by the physician or the mid-level provider or a 23 S.A.N.E. nurse, such as myself, who comes in and looks 24 at the patient and needs further care, then they need 25 to get sent off the unit. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 95 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Is there anyone 2 who is trained in the Department to be a trainer, 3 S.A.N.E. nurses or -- 4 MS. BLOUNT: Well, I hope to eventually, 5 but not yet, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Not yet. Okay. And do 7 you have access to somebody with expertise like that 8 who -- backstopping you and answer technical questions 9 that may come up as you're educating them how to do a 10 rape kit -- sexual assault kit? In other words, do you 11 have some doctor who's a specialist that you can call 12 and say, "Hey, I got a really good question today about 13 what happened. You know, does it make any sense to do 14 an oral swab when he's just claiming to have had anal 15 sex, or how many hours is it" -- you know -- "What's 16 the latest science on how many hours semen can last in 17 a certain environment, you know, or a certain type of 18 fabric?" 19 MS. BLOUNT: Per policy and per the ADA 20 initiative, which is the national guidelines and 21 standards for sexual assault, we have ninety-six hours 22 in order to retrieve physical evidence from a victim's 23 person. Certainly in the -- in the correctional 24 setting, the physician or mid-level provider can make a 25 determination whether or not a kit should be or could Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 96 1 be used after that time period; however, ultimately it 2 is up to the Office of Attorney General to make a 3 determination as to whether or not they want that 4 evidence collection kit done. 5 MR. McFARLAND: The Attorney General or 6 Inspector General? 7 MS. BLOUNT: OIG. 8 MR. McFARLAND: OIG. Okay. 9 MS. BLOUNT: Inspector General, sorry. 10 In regards to getting any kind of further education or 11 information, if I have any questions on what to do, 12 there's a broad network of S.A.N.E. nurses throughout 13 Texas that I can also call and talk with. We have peer 14 meetings in which we learn more. I'm constantly 15 learning to do things. There are many avenues of 16 people and/or literature that I can look up. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. So you're showing 18 the Department personnel -- 19 MS. BLOUNT: It doesn't like me. 20 MR. McFARLAND: You're showing the 21 Department personnel how to do these assault kits. You 22 don't tell them, "Don't bother after ninety-six hours." 23 MS. BLOUNT: No, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Do you tell them 25 do it unless it's -- unless you're instructed, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 97 1 otherwise, if in doubt, do it? 2 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, sir. I -- That's a 3 judgment call on the physicians. 4 MR. McFARLAND: It's the physician or the 5 OIG that's making that judgment call? 6 MS. BLOUNT: If they're in medical and 7 they come to medical and they make an allegation, they 8 have to start an investigation so they have to be 9 apprised -- or they have to be told that they needed to 10 let the security know about the allegations so it can 11 be started on. I'm sorry. I lost the contents of your 12 question. 13 MR. McFARLAND: I was wondering who 14 decides whether to go ahead and do the rape kit 15 after -- if the incident is at ninety-six hours or 16 more. 17 MS. BLOUNT: OIG. 18 MR. McFARLAND: OIG. And what's your 19 understanding of whether -- of how much of the kit do 20 you use? Are you supposed to do the whole kit 21 regardless of the nature of the assault? In other 22 words, if someone says, "I was forced to give oral 23 sex," do you just do the oral swab, or do you, 24 regardless of, you know, the person says, "Look, there 25 was no anal penetration," you assume that there might Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 98 1 be and you do that part of the rape kit as well? 2 MS. BLOUNT: Head-to-toe assessment. 3 Head-to-toe collection, yes, sir. If it was just oral, 4 obviously we're going to get oral swabs the best we 5 can; probably use more swabs than what we have in the 6 kits. But they will get examined from head-to-toe and 7 swabbed and whatever we can collect, whether it's 8 fingernails or hair samples. 9 MR. McFARLAND: And you're going to do a 10 rectal exam as well -- 11 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: -- even if it's an oral 13 allegation. 14 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, sir. 15 MS. ELLIS: Who's responsible for keeping 16 the kits current before their lifetime expires? 17 MS. BLOUNT: Once they have expired, it 18 is up to -- the responsibility of the units to go 19 through their inventory and to pull out all expired 20 boxes, throw them away and replace them with new ones, 21 and they are replaced through the unit warehouse -- the 22 medical warehouse. 23 MR. McFARLAND: The one rape kit and the 24 RMF at Estelle expires in three days. 25 MS. BLOUNT: They're going to want a new Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 99 1 one. 2 MR. McFARLAND: I don't think we have 3 anymore questions specifically for you, Ms. Blount, but 4 we may, but we can hear from Mr. Bales. Thank you for 5 being here. 6 MS. BLOUNT: Thank you. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And unless you have 8 anything you wanted to say, we have some questions 9 for -- Is there anything you wanted to say? 10 MR. BALES: Well, I had an opening 11 statement, but due to the timeframe, I'll just go ahead 12 and introduce myself as Ralph Bales, Safe Prisons 13 program manager, here to answer your questions. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Great. And you are 15 the -- in charge of PREA implementation for the whole 16 Department? 17 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 18 MR. McFARLAND: And you answer to 19 Mr. Stacks? 20 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And would you be 22 familiar with TDCJ's -- the Estelle Unit's Offender 23 Orientation -- October 2007 Orientation, or at least 24 the portion that relates to the Safe Prison Program or 25 is that something that is -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 100 1 MR. BALES: Not specifically. That would 2 be a unit program. We certainly know the orientation 3 should be in there, but specifically unit -- 4 MR. McFARLAND: So we should probably 5 talk to the warden of -- or who should I talk to about 6 the particulars of the Offender Orientation at Estelle? 7 MR. BALES: The unit information would 8 probably be best served by the -- either by that warden 9 or the captain. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Or maybe the captain, 11 yeah. 12 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: What is your 14 understanding, Mr. Bales, of an inappropriate 15 relationship between staff and inmates? Is it a 16 disciplinary matter for one? 17 MR. BALES: If you're talking 18 inappropriate -- Are you specifically suggesting 19 sexual -- inappropriate sexual -- 20 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, inappropriate sexual 21 relationship activity with -- between staff and inmate. 22 That's a policy violation? 23 MR. BALES: Yes, sir, it is. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Is it a criminal act? 25 MR. BALES: Yes, sir, it is. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 101 1 MR. McFARLAND: Whether it's consensual? 2 MR. BALES: Well, there's not consensual 3 between a staff and offender. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So are you 5 familiar with the SPP-14, which is the Sexual Assault 6 Awareness Brochure? 7 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Was that issued by your 9 office? 10 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. The -- I don't 12 know which page. It looks like a tri-fold brochure? 13 MR. BALES: Okay. 14 MR. McFARLAND: But in the first column, 15 which may be the back of the brochure under, "Did you 16 know," it says -- in fourth paragraph -- "A survivor is 17 not at fault for the rape, even if he or she was in a 18 secluded area, or had previous consensual sex with the 19 attacker." Given your previous answer that there's no 20 such thing as consensual sex, why is that in there? 21 Why are you telling new -- or for that matter -- old 22 inmates that there is such a thing as consensual sex 23 with an attacker? Is that something that you'd want to 24 take a second look at? 25 MR. BALES: Yes, sir, please. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 102 1 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Bales, what is your 2 background in preparation for your position as a PREA 3 coordinator with the State of Texas? 4 MR. BALES: Well, I've been with -- I've 5 been employed with the Texas Department of Criminal 6 Justice since 1986. I started as a correctional 7 officer. From then, I worked with them as a 8 correctional officer for a little over a year until I 9 went into the treatment field as a -- counselor 10 working -- for twelve years. After that time, I went 11 to work with the -- I was working with the Emergency 12 Action Center and worked with them for eight years as a 13 supervisor in that field. As you know, the Emergency 14 Action Center is the office of record for the reporting 15 of serious and unusual incidents. Of course, we 16 know -- particular incidents and with, of course, 17 sexual assaults and assaults and those kind of things 18 were a part of those stats that I dealt with. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Bales, I want to make 20 sure I can understand your testimony. I don't know 21 about anybody else, but it's coming in and out. I 22 wonder if you could try the podium -- 23 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: -- if you wouldn't mind. 25 Apparent ly maybe it's the microphone there. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 103 1 MR. BALES: Okay. Is this any better? 2 MR. McFARLAND: Well, let's give it a 3 try. 4 MR. BALES: Okay. All right. Then I 5 worked for eight years with the Emergency Action Center 6 as the supervisor on the Emergency Action Center, which 7 is the office of records for the reporting of serious 8 and unusual incidents which included recording of 9 sexual assaults. After that time, in actually about 10 June of '86, I -- I'm sorry -- '96 -- is when I 11 accepted the position as the Safe Prisons program 12 manager. 13 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry. It was of -- 14 August of '96? 15 MR. BALES: June -- I'm sorry. It's 16 June, 2006, and -- I'm sorry, sir. Would you repeat 17 your question for me, please? 18 MS. ELLIS: He's giving us his background 19 for his position. I'd like to follow on with, where is 20 PREA now from a status standpoint and as the overseer? 21 What -- Are you comfortable with where you are? How 22 are you -- 23 MR. BALES: Would you like me to stand up 24 there or down here? Which would you prefer? Is that 25 coming in okay? Is this going to be okay now? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 104 1 MS. ELLIS: It is. 2 MR. BALES: You know, one of the things I 3 would share with you is -- and, of course, being for a 4 short time myself, a couple years, is that PREA -- as 5 much as what we've talked about already -- is that PREA 6 Institute's been a very short -- It's only been a short 7 existence. You know, it's only been a very short time, 8 and I think that PREA's made great strides and our 9 Agency has made great strides. I heard Mr. Livingston 10 talking earlier and Mr. Stacks and Mr. Quarterman 11 talking about where we are, you know, today versus ten 12 years ago versus five years ago, and I remember from 13 when I came in '86, the differences of where we are 14 from there. 15 PREA, I think, is -- just in the last 16 couple of years -- just in the last year has made great 17 strides, but I don't -- certainly am not satisfied with 18 I think where PREA is -- as a whole is -- and I hope 19 we're not satisfied where we are today. I hope we 20 continue to strive -- to continue to strive for, you 21 know, more. Are we where we want to be? Certainly 22 not. I hope we're not. I hope we never settle for 23 where we're at. I hope we continue to strive for -- to 24 gain, you know, our mission in that zero tolerance. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Bales, at each unit Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 105 1 there is supposed to be a Safe Prison coordinator. Is 2 that right? 3 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: And at Estelle, that's 5 Daniel Olivarez? 6 MR. BALES: Daniel Olivarez was there 7 during that period of time. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, okay. That's right. 9 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Not during '06? 11 MR. BALES: Yes, sir, I believe so. 12 MR. McFARLAND: And looking at the Safe 13 Prison Plan on September 2005 version, you're familiar 14 with this? 15 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. This is your bread 17 and butter. Right? This is what your office enforces? 18 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: I'm looking at Page 7, 20 and this is a discussion of the duties of the Unit Safe 21 Prison Program Coordinator. Pages 6 and 7, is that a 22 fair list of what you expect a coordinator of each unit 23 to do or know, Pages 6 and 7? 24 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. It mentions Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 106 1 under 6(b), on Page 7, "Tracking victims and predators. 2 The coordinator shall maintain a list of all confirmed 3 extortionists, victims and predators assigned to the 4 unit, updated daily or as needed depending on activity 5 level." What do you expect, as the head of the Safe 6 Prison Program, to be done in the way of keeping such a 7 list at each unit? Is it supposed to be daily or can 8 it be as needed? What's the best practice as far as 9 you're concerned? 10 MR. BALES: That would depend certainly 11 on the particular unit. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Right. 13 MR. BALES: And clarify that. You know, 14 on your smaller unit, let's say you're a 500-man or 15 you're a 1,000-man unit where there's very little 16 activity that we see problems, maybe a weekly update 17 would be all that would be needed to be done. That 18 would depend on the number of offender protection 19 investigations that are done or there's searches that 20 are going on or -- I mean, extortion claims that are 21 going on, or if there are searches going on and we're 22 finding contraband or weapons or we're finding drugs or 23 things like that. It would depend on the level of 24 activity. Certainly, you know, if we have a lot of 25 activity or a unit that -- one of our larger units, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 107 1 then certainly daily activity -- daily documentation 2 would be appropriate. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 4 MR. BALES: On a smaller unit, maybe less 5 than that, but certainly a weekly log would certainly 6 be reasonable. 7 MR. McFARLAND: But on any given day, if 8 Mr. Livingston asked for it, you could give him a list 9 of every extortionist, every sexual assault victim, 10 every predator -- sexual predator assigned to any unit 11 that he wanted to see. Is that right? 12 MR. BALES: No, sir, I could not. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Why is that? 14 MR. BALES: Because most of these lists 15 that you're talking about on that -- see there are 16 maintained on a list on that unit. 17 MR. McFARLAND: 6(b)? Okay. 18 MR. BALES: I mean, 6(b). I'm sorry. 19 MR. McFARLAND: It's not some central 20 database. You'd have to direct them to Estelle and 21 Estelle should have a list of the sexual predators and 22 victims. Is that right? 23 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And do you know if 25 that list is being -- such a list is being kept at the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 108 1 five units that we're talking about? 2 MR. BALES: I know from speaking with 3 the -- Let me say this: if I've seen on all of -- on 4 every one of them? 5 MR. McFARLAND: All five of them, yes. 6 MR. BALES: All five of those units? 7 When I have been to those units, I have seen them. Can 8 I tell you on a daily basis? I'm not there every day, 9 but I do know, speaking with the coordinators on those 10 units, that they're keeping those. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And what -- what 12 does that tell you? What is the -- your unit 13 coordinator supposed to do with that information? I 14 mean, how does that help with the Safe Prison Plan just 15 knowing where they are? 16 MR. BALES: Well -- 17 MR. McFARLAND: Are they supposed to be 18 watching more carefully? Are they supposed to assign 19 more officers to watch them? Are they restricted from 20 certain activities? Are they more likely to be -- Are 21 they given preference for getting into safekeeping? 22 What do you do with the information on -- what this 23 person's on the list of predators for? What do you do 24 with that information? 25 MR. BALES: What they do is they watch Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 109 1 those -- What they'll try to do is watch those guys. 2 They'll look for additional activities. Sometimes -- 3 Let's say for the victims on those things. They'll 4 kind of -- They'll -- 'Cause I spoke with some of 5 the -- I'm going to tell you, I spoke to some in our 6 training yesterday. I pulled some of these guys to 7 reaffirm that what we were talking about on some of 8 these things, and I asked that very question 'cause I 9 want to make sure I'm -- always doing there and, again, 10 to reaffirm that issue. And many of them said, "You 11 know what we do is we'll go back and we'll talk to 12 these victims from time to time. We'll pull them in 13 and say, you know, 'How's it going? Are you having any 14 more problems,'" and they'll check back with them, you 15 know. 16 Now, on those predators, we watch them. 17 Sometimes they'll do extra cell searches and they'll go 18 back in there and we check and make sure that they're 19 looking to see if, you know, see if there's any other 20 activities, or seeing all of a sudden that they've got 21 extra things in their cells that are -- you know, that 22 aren't on their commissary list. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Who else looks at those 24 lists? Specifically what I'm wondering is, when -- if 25 an inmate puts in for a unit transfer or a Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 110 1 re-assignment to a different cell block or job 2 re-assignment or something like that -- 3 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: -- does the -- is it your 5 understanding that the folks who make -- that approve 6 or disapprove that request have access to and look at 7 the list of predators or victims to help them make that 8 decision? 9 MR. BALES: I can't tell you if that's 10 happening on all the units, maybe the unit wardens will 11 be able to address that. I know this information can 12 be made available to the UIP committees and so maybe 13 those wardens can address that. 14 MR. McFARLAND: I see a nodding head, 15 so -- 16 MR. BALES: Okay. 17 MR. McFARLAND: We'll get to that, but 18 I'm just -- It seems like it could be a good idea -- 19 MR. BALES: Sure. 20 MR. McFARLAND: -- to find out, "Hey, 21 look, this guy's real anxious to get into protective 22 custody or safekeeping where there are other homosexual 23 protected individuals," and low and behold he's on the 24 predator list. He may want access to those vulnerable 25 individuals. That's information you probably want the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 111 1 unit coordinator to share with the classification 2 person. 3 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. As a matter of 4 fact, if I'm not sure, one of the things that we've 5 been doing is piloting a program called a mapping 6 system. It's a visual picture of the layout of our 7 facilities, and in that the units will go in there and 8 they will map out where these victims and predators are 9 and the OPIs are done. That information in turn is 10 provided to the wardens. It's provided in the UIP 11 meetings so that this information can be used and, you 12 know, to -- you know, to be able to make some 13 assignments and look into those kinds of things. We've 14 also got -- 15 MR. McFARLAND: Before you leave that, 16 what do you call that mapping? 17 MR. BALES: It's a visual mapping grid. 18 MR. McFARLAND: All right. The name of 19 the program is -- 20 MR. BALES: It's just mapping grid; 21 nothing fancy. It's just a mapping grid. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Is that being piloted or 23 is that system-wide? 24 MR. BALES: We've been piloting it for 25 awhile. We're in the process now of looking exactly Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 112 1 how extensive we want to put that on all units, but 2 I've seen how that's working. We've had some good 3 feedback on the procedure and steps and establishing 4 those procedures. 5 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry. Go ahead. 6 MR. BALES: One of the -- We've had a 7 couple of things that come out of that. Some of the 8 wardens have sent us -- We have some very innovative 9 wardens out there who have taken that a step forward 10 and have gone to the point of even tagging. I'm not 11 for sure if you're familiar with our count system -- 12 count board systems. 13 MR. McFARLAND: I saw it. 14 MR. BALES: You saw the count board. 15 Okay. Well, on some of our facilities, some of those 16 have even utilized that system and go in there and they 17 will tag those counter board systems to say, "This is a 18 victim -- suspected victim. This is a suspected 19 predator." That way that counting board system has a 20 very, you know, visual way to be able to go in there 21 and make sure, before doing any type of housing 22 assignments, that they've got that visual right there 23 in front of them. 24 MR. McFARLAND: That's great. 25 Mr. Quarterman? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 113 1 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah. I'd like to make 2 one comment on mapping. One of the reasons why we 3 develop these grids is to have more contact with those 4 predators. The more we have contact with those 5 predators, we can see their activity. They won't 6 victimize another person. We also take photos of those 7 victims. We take those photos to our shift turnout to 8 make sure the officer knows, "This guy here, keep an 9 eye on him." 10 MR. McFARLAND: And in terms of the 11 predators or both? 12 MR. QUARTERMAN: The predators. 13 MR. McFARLAND: The predators. Okay. 14 Gotcha. Not the victims. 15 MR. QUARTERMAN: We always, in the past, 16 move the victims and we have to go through life 17 changing then, but the predator falls away, disappears 18 again and come back another day. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 20 MR. QUARTERMAN: So what we're trying to 21 do is target those predators; put them in places that 22 we can keep an eye on them quickly like the front parts 23 of cells, the Plexiglass cells. We want to keep a good 24 eye and more contacts and having supervisors and COs 25 talking to them and keeping up where they're going, so Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 114 1 that's the purpose of the list. The mapping thing is 2 something that we had talked about in our directors 3 meeting, is to actually get a program that we can go 4 out and map all of our facilities. And, actually, it's 5 a total grid of the facility and it tells you what 6 particular areas these incidence occurred in, the 7 allegations are occurring in. For we know in times of 8 day it's occurring in because it's occurring right 9 after you started feeding at that particular cell 10 block. That means I need to have additional officers 11 there. So, this is some of the information we're 12 getting back from the Safe Prisons office and the 13 graph and the pilot -- It seems to be a good, positive 14 thing, a best practice, I believe. Thank you. 15 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Bales, these are examples 16 of posters, "Do not live in darkness. Shine the light 17 on sexual assault." That can be found throughout the 18 prisons. Am I correct? I found this information 19 in the data -- 20 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 21 MS. ELLIS: -- that you provided. This 22 morning, Mr. Quarterman -- and I didn't see these, and 23 I don't know if any of these -- I don't know if I just 24 wasn't attentive and observant enough. Where would 25 they have been posted, posters indicating -- The warden Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 115 1 can answer that? Okay. We'll wait. I'll hold that 2 question. That's okay. It's just that they're very 3 good, and it's among the information that you are 4 providing, and I want to make sure that they really are 5 visible and available so that people can learn and be 6 prepared and enlightened by them. They're excellent 7 materials. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Bales, another 9 document that was provided is No. PO-07.150 dated 10 January 25, 2005. It's a three-page post order, 11 subject is "Unit Safe Prisons Program Coordinators." 12 Is that -- That pre-dates when you became -- headed up 13 the Safe Prison Programs. 14 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 15 MR. McFARLAND: But are you familiar 16 with -- Is this still -- post-order still in force? 17 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 18 MR. McFARLAND: So is there anything 19 that's -- There's no revision since January of '05. 20 Right? 21 MR. BALES: No, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: So this tells us 23 everything they do -- supposed to be doing at each of 24 the units? 25 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 116 1 MR. McFARLAND: And one of them is 46 -- 2 Under Item J is -- or, rather, "G" -- "Conduct 3 interviews with incoming offenders in order to 4 ascertain their likelihood of -- Do you expect the 5 coordinator -- the Safe Prison coordinator, whether 6 it's Allred or Coffield, to interview every incoming 7 offender or just on a random basis, or where is 8 coordinator -- When is a coordinator expected to 9 interview the incoming offender to ascertain their 10 victim -- their likelihood of becoming victims, rather? 11 MR. BALES: They do that when the 12 incoming chain comes in and they're expected to 13 interview every one of them. They're expected -- I 14 know -- I can certainly tell you our plan is to know 15 that there's a incoming chain interview sheet that has 16 to be filled out as well, and I expect that coordinator 17 to interview every one of those and to -- and to ask 18 those questions and to talk to them and to inform them 19 about the Safe Prisons Program. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So he or she 21 doesn't delegate it to anybody. They're expected to be 22 there for every bus that comes in. 23 MR. BALES: Well, now, here's what 24 we have a lot of -- 25 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry. Was that a Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 117 1 "yes," or are you explaining? 2 MR. BALES: No, I'm explaining. Let me 3 do that, yes, sir. I mean, what we have is, we've had 4 Safe Prison coordinators that have -- The warden has 5 assigned people to -- When we set the Safe Program 6 Prison office and they have assigned additional people 7 in that office, then that person has trained that 8 person to be able to fill out that paper with them and 9 can assist them because we have to have someone who, if 10 that person is off on sick leave or you have a person 11 is on vacation, you have to have somebody other to be 12 able fill in, so we have had people that have been 13 trained to be able to do that, to fill in to do that. 14 MR. McFARLAND: And the interview 15 checklist is the incoming chain interview which is 16 SPP-08. Is that right? 17 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 18 MR. McFARLAND: And is there anything 19 else you expect the unit coordinators to ask of every 20 incoming inmate on this subject of sexual assault other 21 than what's on the SPP-08? In other words -- 22 MR. BALES: When we took -- When we train 23 our coordinators, we asked them to use common 24 correctional good sense when they're doing this. I 25 mean, you're not going to go down this -- Certainly you Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 118 1 need to cover these questions in here, but if someone 2 is being vague in their answers, if someone is being 3 tentative, you know, if someone is being real reluctant 4 to answer something, you may want to use probing 5 questions, or you may want to be -- you know, you want 6 to be a little bit more diligent about trying to answer 7 questions. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Where do you expect these 9 interviews to take place? 10 MR. BALES: We ask each one of them to 11 find a place that's secluded or at least to an area 12 they can -- that that offender can provide that in an 13 area where they have some sense of security, you know, 14 can -- confidence. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Now, I understand that 16 every offender who is coming into the system can spend 17 up to twenty-four months in an intake center. Is that 18 right? 19 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 20 MR. McFARLAND: And are there Safe Prison 21 Program coordinators at those five intake centers? 22 MR. BALES: Yes, sir, there are. 23 MR. McFARLAND: All right. So they would 24 be expected to do an SPP-08 in the intake center. 25 MR. BALES: They are expected to do an Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 119 1 SPP-08 at the intake centers. What we have done is, we 2 have asked the intake center -- and let me clarify here 3 because you've asked us to clarify. When I thought you 4 were talking a moment ago, I thought you were talking 5 about -- For instance, these five particular 6 facilities, we're talking about facilities that 7 necessarily want income -- 8 MR. McFARLAND: That's right. 9 MR. BALES: -- intake facilities, so 10 we're talking about facilities where -- you know, the 11 normal processing. Okay? 12 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 13 MR. BALES: On those intake facilities, 14 we have to have assistance because there are just so 15 many offenders coming in. You can't have one person 16 that's doing that and so those folks will assist with 17 that. 18 MR. McFARLAND: And they use the SPP-08s 19 at the intake centers and the unit coordinators use the 20 same form when they end up going to the unit of 21 residence? 22 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Like Estelle or Allred? 24 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And they fill out a new Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 120 1 SPP-08 when they get to the -- 2 MR. BALES: Actually, what they'll do at 3 the intake center -- Let me share that process with 4 you. What they'll do is, as soon as they go through 5 the intake process, if they are processed in at that 6 unit, they will do the SPP-08 there as well. Now, at 7 the intake process, what will happen is in a very short 8 period of time, say, twelve hours -- well, not twelve 9 hours -- twenty-four hours or thirty-six hours, they'll 10 also be going through a psych interview there, an 11 assessment with the testers there on most of those 12 intake facilities where they'll also be going through 13 and being asked routinely, you know. 14 They'll be meeting with an individual 15 who's the tester who will do a psych interview that 16 will ask them, "Have you had any sexual assault -- any 17 kind of assault issues," or, you know -- specifically 18 been sexually assaulted and those kind of things. 19 On our intake facilities, what will 20 happen is, is that as they come in that very first day, 21 our -- we will have either the Safe Prisons coordinator 22 or sometimes the SPG coor-- or the sergeant there at 23 the intake, but someone will give them an overview 24 presentation of the Safe Prisons Program, telling them 25 about what that is, and then what will happen is Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 121 1 they're going up there -- We're trying to let them know 2 that -- you know, that you need to talk to someone. 3 You know, the coordinator's there or someone's 4 available to help you out then. 5 MS. ELLIS: Are offenders asked their 6 sexual orientation at that time as well with those 7 questions? 8 MR. BALES: They're asked on the SPP-08. 9 MR. McFARLAND: And the questions on that 10 document are, "Are you a homosexual? Yes or no. 11 Bisexual? Yes or no." 12 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Is there -- Where would 14 someone note transgender, maybe under "Observations"? 15 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. That would 16 probably be the best place. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Now, with all due 18 respect, whoever drafted the form -- and I realize it 19 was before you got there. The next question is kind of 20 an interesting one to ask an inmate: "Are you going to 21 make weapons and use them? Yes or no." Is that 22 serious? 23 MR. STACKS: Mr. McFarland, let me 24 interject here, if I may. The Safe Prisons Program, as 25 I said, is relatively new underneath my purview and Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 122 1 that particular form that you're referring to, the SSP, 2 there's many things that I personally don't like about 3 that in my professional experiences. That question 4 certainly -- I don't expect an inmate who has every 5 intention to make a weapon say, "Yes, sir, Warden. I'm 6 going to make a weapon and you gotta find it." 7 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, but the next one's 8 even better. 9 MR. STACKS: Oh, I know. 10 MR. McFARLAND: "Do you plan on 11 assaulting other offenders? Yes or no." 12 MR. STACKS: Believe me, sir. I do not 13 believe that's a very good form and I can tell you that 14 it's going to be changed and I think even from a 15 warden's experience that I can speak from, that I 16 didn't necessarily ask inmates when they came to my 17 facilities were they gay. I asked them in particular 18 because I always got a more honest answer: "When's the 19 last time you had sex with another man? When's the 20 last time you had sex with a bisexual?" I mean, they 21 seem to be -- It's been my experience inmate's more 22 willing to talk about it in that arena of discussion as 23 opposed to gay or straight arena. That's just 24 particularly my experience. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Does that vary with each Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 123 1 unit, then, because you're speaking as a former warden? 2 MR. STACKS: And that's correct. It's my 3 intentions to have those experiences have some impact 4 on these upcoming forms that we're going to come to. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. When are those 6 upcoming forms? 7 MR. STACKS: Well, we've been busy 8 getting prepared for this, sir. I can tell you 9 certainly after this, we are planning on going forward 10 and I might add that our '05 draft of our plan, we 11 certainly have seen some things that we need to amend 12 because we have learned some things since that draft 13 was made, so I want you to know that our program is 14 still evolving. I think we have learned a lot in the 15 last couple of years from these experiences, from our 16 piloting of certain initiatives. And the things that 17 have worked well for us, certainly we're going to 18 continue with them. Those things that haven't worked 19 well, I don't see why we necessarily need to spin our 20 wheels continuing to do them, so that is the commitment 21 that this Agency has made towards Safe Prisons Program, 22 is to make it a much better program. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Bales, do you -- Are 24 you involved in the Peer Education Program? 25 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. We have -- That's Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 124 1 part of our -- one of our initiatives, yes, sir. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And how many 3 inmates have been through the peer education training? 4 MR. BALES: Yes, sir. These exact 5 numbers -- Since it's inception -- and let me kind of 6 share that with you real quickly because I certainly 7 want to give accolades where they deserve -- is that 8 the Peer Education Program was actually a pilot program 9 with our Health Services Division and you probably read 10 that in the material we submitted, but the -- as part 11 of a pilot -- 12 MR. McFARLAND: It was focused on STIs. 13 Right? 14 MR. BALES: STDs and HIV and those kind 15 of things. And as it began, it started as a -- They 16 developed that into a program called Wall Talk, which 17 is an excellent program, peer educator where -- you 18 know, peer offenders teaching peers. 19 MS. ELLIS: Excuse me. Did you say "Wall 20 Talk" or -- 21 MR. BALES: Wall Talk. And what happened 22 is that this Safe Prisons Program management office at 23 that time saw how successful that program was, is that 24 we decided that -- We saw that modality. Of course, 25 that happened before I came along, but we saw that Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 125 1 modality as an excellent way to try to present sexual 2 assault awareness issues. And so we contracted with a 3 local advocacy group to write our curriculum, which 4 they did, and we put that into practice in 2006 -- 5 Well, that implemented it in 2006, around in May, and 6 started doing the training for us. And in September of 7 2006 is when we put it into full implementation. Since 8 that time, we now have eighty-six of our facilities 9 that have been trained and have existing all those peer 10 ed-- have peer educators that are doing that training 11 on that. Okay? Since that inception, I think we have 12 over 97,000 offenders who have been trained through 13 that process. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Through the peer 15 education? 16 MR. BALES: Through peer education, the 17 Sexual Assault Awareness Peer Education Program. 18 MR. McFARLAND: And that's -- We were at 19 Estelle, they said they'll have at any one time thirty 20 in a class -- 21 MR. BALES: Yes. 22 MR. McFARLAND: -- one class. 23 MR. BALES: We try to ask them to keep it 24 small because the interaction is the key component 25 without -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 126 1 MR. McFARLAND: Right. Yeah. And you 2 don't want them in an auditorium. 3 MR. BALES: Sure. 4 MR. McFARLAND: And so is that how you 5 process 97,000 inmates is thirty at a time in all the 6 various units? 7 MR. BALES: Well, what happened is -- and 8 this is what we did, is last year -- and part of the 9 initiative was -- is that last year we went and put on 10 fourteen of our major intake facilities, is we made 11 that part of our enhanced orientation process, so what 12 happens is, is the offenders coming into those major 13 intake processes are receiving that Sexual Assault 14 Awareness Peer Education Program, so from the very 15 moment that they're stepping onto the unit, part of 16 their orientation process is that they're getting 17 intense Sexual Assault Awareness Peer Education 18 Program. And so a lot of that is, as you see, is that 19 that's -- We're getting a good portion of that. You 20 know, being able to have a greater impact through that 21 orientation process. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Ms. Blount, you've done 23 assault examinations, forensic examinations. Right? 24 MS. BLOUNT: Yes, sir. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And what are you looking Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 127 1 for when somebody reports, say, a male-on-male sexual 2 assault? What's -- You know, what are you going to be 3 looking for, and just be as direct as you need to be. 4 MS. BLOUNT: The very first thing I do is 5 I come in and tell them I'm going to look at their 6 person from the top of their head and everything in 7 between. I explain every step to them, what I'm going 8 to do. I also emphasize the fact that they have a 9 right, at any time, to refuse any part of the 10 examination. 11 It certainly doesn't mean they can't go 12 through with it and you're halfway through with it. 13 One of the things that I do is a -- again, a 14 head-to-toe assessment. I start at the top of the head 15 and I look all through their hair. I look at their 16 eyes. I check their pupils. I assess them medically 17 to make sure that they are okay. 18 If I see any kind of problems with 19 their -- maybe their asthma or their COPD is -- they 20 need more medical help, then certainly they will get 21 that first before the examination. Once I have 22 finished looking at them and have taken their clothes 23 off and have got them sitting on the gurney, I will 24 tell them again what the steps are, how we do it. I 25 lost my train of thought. And I want to take a Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 128 1 complete history so I know who, what, when, where and 2 how a sexual assault occurred so I can base my findings 3 or base my examination on the exact location. There 4 again, I told you earlier that I use more swabs than 5 what's allowed in the kit because I would much rather 6 spend that -- more evidence than not enough. 7 MR. McFARLAND: But by complete sexual 8 history, you mean about this incident or -- 9 MS. BLOUNT: About the sexual assault 10 history. 11 MR. McFARLAND: History of this event. 12 MS. BLOUNT: The history of this event. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 14 MS. BLOUNT: In detail. I need to know 15 who, what, when, where and how? Once I get that, then 16 I will do the whole kit; that's combing their hair, 17 pulling a few hair samples from their head, doing an 18 oral swab -- saliva sample, drawing blood for DNA, 19 combing the pubic hair, pulling pubic hair, swabbing 20 the penis or the vagina in the case of a female, doing 21 an anal/rectal examination and swabbing that as well. 22 All that is all put away and packaged and put back into 23 the box and handed over to OIG maintaining the chain of 24 custody the whole time during the examination. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Do you also look for Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 129 1 trauma, evidence of trauma? 2 MS. BLOUNT: Absolutely. I write down 3 everything that I see whether it's a scratch on the 4 neck two weeks prior to the assault. I note that down. 5 I also note the sizes, the centimeter, where it's 6 located, what color it is and what it is. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Typically, what are 8 frequent signs of trauma for a male sexual -- 9 MS. BLOUNT: Anally or orally? 10 MR. McFARLAND: Let's start with anally. 11 MS. BLOUNT: You might see some tears. 12 If they're doing an examination of the rectum, you put 13 them up into a position and you document that the 14 rectum was a -- as a you would a time clock -- 15 twelve o'clock being at the top and three o'clock, 16 six o'clock, and you make a notation where you saw that 17 injury and what the injury looked like, how long it was 18 centimeter-wise, if it was bleeding, if it was scabbed. 19 Now, does there have to be trauma with a 20 sexual assault, no, because sometimes predators take a 21 little bit more care of what they do, so regardless of 22 whether there's injury or not does not mean it didn't 23 happen. That's why the history is so important as 24 well. Orally, you might see that some teeth are 25 missing, or you might see some hair actually between -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 130 1 pubic hair actually between the teeth. You might see 2 the little piece of skin between your lip and your gum 3 might be broke, might see some contusions, bruises. 4 You might see some bruising in the back of the throat. 5 Any of that's going -- All that's going to be 6 documented. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And do you note -- Do you 8 just make those observations, or do you express a 9 professional conclusion as to whether a rape has 10 occurred? 11 MS. BLOUNT: I do not put my opinions on 12 there. I put down exactly what I see. 13 MR. McFARLAND: And then it goes to who? 14 MS. BLOUNT: Once the examination is 15 completed and everything's been put back into the box, 16 the box has been secured, then it's handed over to the 17 unit or the agent of authorization to receive that 18 and/or OIG. And what I mean by "unit" or "agent of 19 authorization" could be the sergeant or the major or 20 somebody along that rank. 21 MS. ELLIS: Just once the examination has 22 been conducted and the offender at that point is done 23 with that process, are they generally then given a 24 proper place to shower? 25 MS. BLOUNT: It's usually my practice to Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 131 1 tell the security they would probably like to have a 2 shower after an invasive examination like that. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Ms. Blount, do you 4 remember conducting an assault examination on Antonio 5 Galbrath? 6 MS. BLOUNT: I believe it's in litigation 7 right now. I'm unable to talk about that at this time. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Counsel, are you 9 asserting that she cannot answer whether she -- 10 something that she's got in a public record? Your 11 brief says that she did an examination. Is that 12 something that she can't disclose to the Panel? 13 MS. HOWELL: The record ultimately speaks 14 for itself. I have spoken with the Attorney General's 15 office and because it is in litigation posture -- 16 obviously what you're looking at is a public record -- 17 but to the extent that there's a discussion of it, the 18 Attorney General's office would prefer that that not 19 take place. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I want to thank 21 you, Ms. Blount and Mr. Bales. And, Mr. Stacks, did 22 you have something? 23 MR. STACKS: Yes, sir. I'd like to just 24 maybe clarify that one concern or question you had 25 concerning that comment, I think, on that tri-folding Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 132 1 pamphlet there. It's been quite some -- since I've 2 seen it, but if you could read your concern again, I'd 3 like to maybe try and answer that for you. I think you 4 had something about the word "consent," I believe it 5 was. 6 MR. McFARLAND: It said persons of victim 7 of rape -- It doesn't -- can still be a victim of rape 8 even if there was previous consensual sex with his 9 attacker; words to that effect. 10 MR. STACKS: Well, one of the things that 11 I just want to share is that consensual sex, as you 12 know, in Texas is not allowed. It's illegal. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 14 MR. STACKS: Also, in our system, 15 inmate-on-inmate consensual sex, we do not condone 16 that. That's illegal. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 18 MR. STACKS: Okay? 19 MR. McFARLAND: That's why I was 20 wondering why it was in the -- 21 MR. STACKS: So what we -- We are wanting 22 the inmates to know that we do not want any type of 23 that behavior. However they may want to try and 24 justify it or clarify it, consensual sex is not 25 allowed. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 133 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 2 MR. STACKS: They are subject to 3 administrative disciplinary sanctions should they admit 4 or should they be caught by staff in any form of our 5 abilities to catch them whether it be a person catching 6 them or whether it be on video or whatever the case may 7 be. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And would it be fair to 9 say that because of that very fact, it's more likely 10 that the inmates who are answering the Bureau of 11 Statistic's survey would under report and over report 12 if, in fact, they say, "Oh, yeah. I've given blow 13 jobs. I've been receiving. I've had consensual sex, 14 done this, that and the other thing"? Every one of 15 them can get five to ninety-nine years or two years at 16 a state jail felony. Isn't that correct? 17 MR. STACKS: Well, it would be awful hard 18 for me to predict what those guys said on that survey. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, yeah. I wasn't 20 asking that. 21 MR. STACKS: I guess what I'm saying is, 22 from my perspective, I take everything that the 23 offender said with a very clear grain of salt, you 24 might say. There are some inmates that I've known over 25 the years. They may be a very hardened criminal, but Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 134 1 one thing they don't do is lie. There's very few of 2 those. It's been my experience that the majority of 3 inmates tell you what you may want to hear for their 4 own gain, whatever that might be. So, I don't think 5 you can just stand by what one inmate or a couple 6 inmates or whatever they say. You have to have some 7 other additional information to validate what they may 8 say, so -- Thank you. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you. Thank you 10 all. We'll reconvene tomorrow morning at nine o'clock 11 sharp. 12 (Proceedings concluded at 5:14 p.m.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 135 1 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE 2 PAGELINE CHANGE REASON 3 _____________________________________________________ 4 _____________________________________________________ 5 _____________________________________________________ 6 _____________________________________________________ 7 _____________________________________________________ 8 _____________________________________________________ 9 _____________________________________________________ 10 _____________________________________________________ 11 _____________________________________________________ 12 _____________________________________________________ 13 _____________________________________________________ 14 _____________________________________________________ 15 _____________________________________________________ 16 _____________________________________________________ 17 _____________________________________________________ 18 _____________________________________________________ 19 _____________________________________________________ 20 _____________________________________________________ 21 _____________________________________________________ 22 _____________________________________________________ 23 _____________________________________________________ 24 _____________________________________________________ 25 _____________________________________________________ Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 136 1 I,_______________________, have read the foregoing 2 deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is 3 true and correct, except as noted above. 4 ______________________ 5 Signature 6 7 THE STATE OF ______________) 8 COUNTY OF _________________) 9 Before me,__________________________ on this day 10 personally appeared __________________, known to me (or 11 proved to me under oath or through ___________) to 12 be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing 13 instrument and acknowledged to me that they executed 14 the same for the purposes and consideration therein 15 expressed. 16 Given under my hand and seal of this office this 17 _________ day of ________________, _______. 18 19 ________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR 20 THE STATE OF ___________ 21 22 23 24 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 137 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS ) ) 2 COUNTY OF HARRIS ) 3 I, a court reporter, and a notary public 4 in and for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that 5 the matters set forth in the caption to the foregoing 6 deposition are true and correct; that the witness 7 appeared before me at the time and place set forth; 8 that said witness was first duly sworn to tell the 9 truth, and thereupon proceeded to testify in said 10 cause; that the questions of counsel and the answers of 11 the said witness were taken down in shorthand by me and 12 thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; 13 and that the foregoing pages comprise a true, correct 14 and complete transcript of the testimony given and the 15 proceedings had during the taking of said deposition. 16 I further certify that I am not counsel, 17 attorney or relative of either party, or otherwise 18 interested in the event of this suit. 19 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE on 20 this the 23rd day of June, 2008. 21 __________________________________ Esther V. Collins, a Notary Public 22 of the State of Texas 23 Commission Expires: 24 07/16/08 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900