1 1 2 3 4 5 6 REVIEW PANEL ON PRISON RAPE 7 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 8 OFFICE OF JUSTICE PROGRAMS 9 10 HEARING ON RAPE AND STAFF SEXUAL 11 MISCONDUCT IN U.S. PRISONS 12 SOUTH TEXAS COLLEGE OF LAW 13 HOUSTON, TEXAS 14 FRIDAY, MARCH 28, 2008 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 PANEL MEMBERS: 3 MR. STEVEN MCFARLAND Director 4 Task Force for the Faith-Based and Community Initiatives 5 U.S. Department of Justice 6 MS. CARROLL ANN ELLIS Director 7 Fairfax County Police Department Victim Services 8 PANEL ONE TESTIMONY: 9 MR. BOBBY JENKINS Captain, Estelle Unit 10 MR. LAWRENCE DAWSON 11 Captain, Estelle Unit 12 MR. KEVIN WHEAT Assistant Warden, Coffield Unit 13 PANEL TWO TESTIMONY: 14 MR. JOHN MORIARTY 15 Inspector General Texas Department of Criminal Justice 16 MS. GINA DeBOTTIS 17 Chief Prosecutor, Special Prosecution Unit Texas Department of Criminal Justice 18 MR. MARK COLE 19 Investigator 20 MR. BRIAN YOSCO Investigator 21 MS. DEBBIE BALLARD 22 Chief of Classification, Estelle Unit 23 MS. JONI WHITE Chairman, State Classification Committee 24 Estelle Unit 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 3 1 APPEARANCES (cont.) 2 PANEL THREE TESTIMONY: 3 MR. BRIAN RODEEN Senior Warden, Clements Unit 4 Amarillo, Texas 5 MR. EDDIE WILLIAMS Senior Warden, Allred Unit 6 Iowa Park, Texas 7 MS. OCTAVIOUS BLACK Senior Warden, Mountain View Unit 8 Gatesville, Texas 9 MR. RAYMOND THOMPSON Senior Warden, Coffield Unit 10 Tennessee Colony, Texas 11 EXECUTIVE TESTIMONY: 12 MR. BRAD LIVINGSTON 13 Executive Director Texas Department of Criminal Justice 14 MR. NATHANIEL QUARTERMAN 15 Director Correctional institutions Division 16 Texas Department of Criminal Justice 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 4 1 MR. McFARLAND: Good morning. This is a 2 continuation of the hearing of the Review Panel on 3 Prison Rape, U.S. Department of Justice. At this time, 4 we'll swear in the three witnesses that we have this 5 morning. Gentlemen, do you solemnly swear or affirm 6 that the testimony you're about to give to the Panel 7 will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 8 truth, so help you God? 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I do. 10 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I do. 11 WARDEN WHEAT: I do. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you. Gentlemen, 13 would you please state your full names and titles for 14 the court reporter? Captain? 15 CAPTAIN DAWSON: My name's Captain 16 Lawrence Dawson. I work at the Estelle Unit. I have 17 eleven and a half years with the system. Prior to 18 Estelle, I was at the Darrington Unit; started my 19 career at the Wynne Unit. 20 MR. McFARLAND: If you could slide the -- 21 that closer, that would be great. Where was it prior 22 to -- I didn't hear the last -- 23 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Prior to Estelle, I was 24 at the Darrington Unit; started my career at the Wynne 25 Unit. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 5 1 MR. McFARLAND: At the Wynne Unit. 2 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Captain? 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: My name's Bobby 5 Jenkins. I'm a captain at the Estelle Unit. Been in 6 the system approximately seventeen years, currently on 7 second shift, main building. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And how long have you 9 been at the Estelle Unit, Captain? 10 CAPTAIN DAWSON: For the most part of 11 seventeen years. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And, Captain 13 Dawson, in your eleven and a half years, how many years 14 have you been with Estelle? 15 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Four months. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Four months. 17 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Going on five. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So that was like 19 November of last year? 20 CAPTAIN DAWSON: October. 21 MR. McFARLAND: October. 22 WARDEN WHEAT: I'm Kevin Wheat. I'm 23 assistant warden at the Coffield Unit. I was prior 24 major at Estelle for approximately five years. I've 25 been with the Agency for approximately twenty-seven Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 6 1 years. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Welcome and thank you for 3 this morning. Were you all present yesterday? 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 5 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So you know what 7 we're trying to do here. Let me -- Captain Jenkins, 8 why do you think that 43 percent of the correctional 9 officers in the Department leave in their first twelve 10 months? 11 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I found out in my 12 career that a lot of people, once they get hired on, 13 they realize that this isn't the job for them and they 14 go ahead and quit, find a different job, or some of 15 them hire on just for a part-time job at that time 16 until they find something better else to do and then 17 they leave. That's just my opinion. 18 MR. McFARLAND: In your seventeen years, 19 Captain Jenkins, do you -- what is it that may cause 20 these new hires to decide that it's not for them? Is 21 it the pay? Is it the stress? Is it the danger? Is 22 it the boredom? What's your opinion on that? 23 CAPTAIN JENKINS: My opinion, even when I 24 was a new officer, when I first walked in any prison, 25 once you hear that gate slam behind you, it kind of Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 7 1 gives a lot of people -- they just can't get over that 2 feeling. I would also agree with what you said, the 3 dangers of it, the possible dangers of it. It's just 4 something different from society, you know, instead of 5 working in an office, in a high-rise building versus 6 working in a environment that could be dangerous. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Do you think it has 8 anything to do with Texas not treating correctional 9 officers as law enforcement officers? 10 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, sir. I don't 11 believe so. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Is it significant 13 to you that if you were to leave, you would not be 14 given credit at the Houston Police Department for being 15 in law enforcement for seventeen years? 16 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I believe a lot of the 17 police agencies are starting to give credit for TDC 18 employees. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. But maybe if 20 they're starting to, but my question is: In your 21 experience, has that been a cause of some discontent 22 among officers, that they don't get credit as a law 23 enforcement officer in Texas whereas they -- 24 correctional officers elsewhere do? 25 CAPTAIN JENKINS: It might be a little, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 8 1 but not much. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. How about the pay? 3 Is that an issue? I'm not asking you to complain about 4 your salary, but I'm just wondering. Texas is not -- I 5 understand it's -- There are about forty-seven states 6 that pay their correctional officers more. Is that an 7 issue, you think, in the lack of retention of -- you 8 know, the attrition rate? 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. I believe 10 it's some of it. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Captain Dawson, in 12 your experience at Darrington and Wynne and just for a 13 few months at Estelle, where does inmate-on-inmate 14 sexual assault occur? 15 CAPTAIN DAWSON: In my twelve years that 16 I've been in, sir, I haven't been a part of the sexual 17 assault when I was at the unit. I've never seen a 18 sexual assault or even alleged. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So you've not 20 been -- When you say you haven't been a part of one, 21 either staff-on-inmate or inmate-on-inmate, you've 22 never come across any sexual assault activity 23 between -- 24 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 25 MR. McFARLAND: -- two inmates. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 9 1 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Like I said, yes, sir. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Have you ever heard about 3 it? 4 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Is that just 6 scuttlebutt, or is that actually seeing a -- you know, 7 some kind of a criminal investigation report? 8 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir. What I -- It's 9 not scuttlebutt. The allege is that inmates allege 10 that they've been sexually assaulted, yes, sir. I've 11 heard about those. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. From the inmates? 13 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir. 14 MR. McFARLAND: From other correctional 15 officers? 16 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir -- No, from our 17 investigations. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So who are you 19 hearing about these allegations from? Is it the OIG 20 people or -- 21 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, the line staff. 22 MR. McFARLAND: The line staff. All 23 right. So it is officers telling you, "Hey, on my cell 24 block, night before last, Inmate Jones says that he was 25 assaulted." Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 10 1 CAPTAIN DAWSON: What we do is, all three 2 shifts, at the end of the shift, we have to brief each 3 other. And Captain Jenkins, he is second shift. I'm 4 third shift. If he had an alleged sexual assault, he 5 briefs me on, "Hey, this what we had. You know, we had 6 a sexual assault or we had a fight. We had a lock up, 7 too, because a life was in danger." 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And did you say 9 you do the third shift at Estelle? 10 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. It starts 11 from ten o'clock until six o'clock in the morning. 12 MR. McFARLAND: And the second shift is 13 what, Captain Jenkins? 14 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Two o'clock in the 15 afternoon to ten o'clock at night. 16 MR. McFARLAND: And so you would 17 typically, Captain Jenkins, tell Captain Dawson of any 18 misconduct between staff or inmate or any infractions 19 between inmates, is that correct, when you finish your 20 shift? 21 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. How about you, 23 Captain Jenkins? Have you come across any 24 inmate-on-inmate sexual activity at Estelle or -- We'll 25 start at Estelle. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 11 1 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir, I have. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So have you 3 investigated it, or how have you come across it? 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I've assisted in 5 investigations, yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. On how many 7 occasions? 8 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I can remember two. 9 MR. McFARLAND: When was the most recent 10 occasion? 11 CAPTAIN JENKINS: A few months ago. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Can you pinpoint 13 like what month or day or -- 14 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, sir. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Was it in calendar '08? 16 Was this January -- 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. It was this 18 year. It was a couple of months ago. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Couple of months ago. 20 So, January. 21 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And what happened 23 in that situation? Just tell me about it. 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Briefly had an offender 25 come approach me and let me know that his cell partner, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 12 1 they just raped him that night, so I had the offender 2 brought straight to medical. I isolated him away from 3 everybody else. I notified OIG, the lead warden and 4 medical; let them know what we had. Once OIG arrived, 5 we -- I assisted in gathering all the evidence such as 6 his clothes and other items that he had. I had my 7 lieutenant go and place the alleged assailant -- 8 isolate him. We placed him on lock-up. 9 After OIG conducted the rape kit, I took 10 photos. And all the evidence and the photos and 11 statements that I had written up on the incident of 12 witnesses, we all handed over to OIG. The assailant 13 was brought out. We took all the evidence from him 14 such as his clothes. OIG also interviewed that 15 offender. 16 We closed off the cell in the area of 17 where the alleged incident happened. We secured that 18 as a crime scene until the OIG did their investigation 19 and shake down the cell. After all the information was 20 received, everything was given to OIG for their 21 criminal investigation. 22 MR. McFARLAND: What's been the outcome 23 since then? 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I don't know, sir, but 25 once -- once we help them with the investigation, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 13 1 they -- OIG does what -- 2 MR. McFARLAND: Where's the alleged 3 perpetrator now? 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I believe we shipped 5 him to a different facility. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Transferred to a 7 different unit. 8 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: You pretty sure or 10 certain or not sure? 11 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I'm not certain, no, 12 sir. I'm pretty sure we did, though. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And how about the 14 alleged victim? 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: The victim stayed there 16 because he's dialysis. He's -- has medical needs for 17 that facility, so we could not ship him. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Does he have a cellmate 19 now? 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I believe so. I 21 couldn't tell you, sir. I believe so, yes. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Is he still on 23 your cell block? 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Which cell block Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 14 1 was this where the incident occurred? 2 CAPTAIN JENKINS: E-2, our safekeeping 3 wing. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, really? 5 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Why was the alleged 7 victim on safekeeping? 8 CAPTAIN JENKINS: For one, he was a 9 admitted homosexual and his size and stature was the 10 reasons why. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Now, what difference is 12 there between a general population cell block and a 13 safekeeping cell block? They're physically the same at 14 Estelle. Is that right? 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Correct. 16 MR. McFARLAND: So what makes -- What's 17 the difference? 18 CAPTAIN JENKINS: The difference -- or 19 the main difference is the safekeeping offenders don't 20 integrate with all the other general population 21 offenders. We rec them by themselves. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Recreation. 23 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. I'm sorry. 24 They get to recreate by themselves. We feed them first 25 before we feed any other general population inmates Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 15 1 because they're fed by themselves. We shower them by 2 themselves, so we basically give them more security as 3 far as the other ones. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Are there more 5 correctional officers looking after them on any of the 6 shifts than general population? 7 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. There's an 8 officer on that wing 24/7. 9 MR. McFARLAND: And my question is: How 10 does that differ from the presence of officers on the 11 general population cell block? 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: On some of the 13 different shifts, there's one officer for two wings, 14 but for safekeeping there's one officer for that 15 wing -- 16 MR. McFARLAND: I see. 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- for the entire time. 18 MR. McFARLAND: So in general population 19 at Estelle, there can be an occasion when a single 20 officer's assigned to two cell blocks, because 21 obviously can't be in two places, so where there will 22 be no officer physically present at a cell block. Is 23 that correct? 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I misunderstood what 25 you're saying. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 16 1 MR. McFARLAND: I think you just said 2 that in a general population cell block, that you -- 3 sometimes you'd have an officer assigned to two 4 different wings? 5 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Correct. 6 MR. McFARLAND: So he can't be in two 7 different places at the same time, so is it accurate to 8 say that at that time there is no officer physically 9 present in a general population wing for the amount of 10 time that he's in the underwing? 11 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Excuse me, sir. Can I 12 speak on that? 13 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 14 CAPTAIN DAWSON: On second shift, he's 15 fully manned on each line. That would happen on third 16 shift. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, okay. 18 CAPTAIN DAWSON: So what we do is 19 continuous movement around. If an officer's assigned a 20 G-1, he'll have to go to F-1 and the staffing plan, but 21 it's a continuous movement, so once he does a security 22 check -- Every thirty minutes a security check has to 23 be done on the line, so once he walks that line or she 24 walks that line, they come out, they walk onto the 25 other line, so it's a continuous walk-through. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 17 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 2 CAPTAIN DAWSON: So to answer your 3 question, is there a moment in time that an officer is 4 not on that line, yes, but always on our safekeeping 5 and our G-4s, okay, which are less than our close 6 custody, which is at the high security, we always have 7 an officer assigned to that line. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Wheat, in your 9 experience as a major at Estelle, how long has that 10 been the case that there would be occasions on the 11 third shift where there would be no correctional 12 officer physically present? 13 WARDEN WHEAT: That was like that the 14 entire time I was there. That's according to the 15 staffing plan and that's the way the document directs 16 that we deploy our staff. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So as long as you 18 remember, that's been the case. 19 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Does that give you 21 any -- any of you any concern? Do you -- I realize the 22 third shift, 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m., most everybody is 23 sleeping or supposed to be sleeping, but do you think 24 that's a best practice? Does that give you any concern 25 that you don't have enough officers to always have at Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 18 1 least one officer physically present in the wing? 2 CAPTAIN DAWSON: It's always a concern, 3 but what we try to do through training, you know, and 4 emphasize to our officers, you know, to do your job, 5 make sure that you're doing security checks. As a 6 supervisor, what we do, we manage by walking around. 7 We're always spot checking on the officers, making sure 8 that they're just not standing around hanging on the 9 bars. We're making sure that they're walking their 10 areas. As it was told the other day, we're 3,600 11 officers short. You know, sometimes things happen, you 12 know, and that's our staffing plan. Maybe that came 13 out wrong like that, but that is our staffing plan and 14 we make it work. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 16 CAPTAIN DAWSON: We do make it work, you 17 know. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Captains, are there any 19 cameras in any of the cell blocks in Estelle? 20 CAPTAIN DAWSON: In the main building or 21 high security? 22 MR. McFARLAND: In the main building. 23 I've seen them in high security. 24 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir, just on our 25 fence line. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 19 1 MR. McFARLAND: And, Warden Wheat, were 2 there ever video cameras anywhere other than high 3 security at Estelle when you were there? 4 WARDEN WHEAT: We had them outside the 5 compound. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. 7 WARDEN WHEAT: No, sir. There were none 8 in there. I'd like to go back on that -- the officers 9 on the wings. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Is this something 11 that Mr. Quarterman just suggested to you? 12 WARDEN WHEAT: Well, it was something 13 that I think that needs to be brought out. You know, 14 the officer that's the rover back and forth between the 15 wings, we'd also have that officer in the picket that 16 is constantly moving up and down and watching these 17 roving officers. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Would cameras be helpful 19 in the cell blocks? 20 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. Anything like 21 that would be helpful, yes, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: And what if they don't 23 videotape, but they're just live feeds? Does that have 24 any effect? 25 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Well, I would like the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 20 1 recorded ones, if we could get them. I think that 2 would be better. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Warden Wheat, are 4 there video cameras at Coffield? 5 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Where? 7 WARDEN WHEAT: We have cameras in the two 8 G-4 custody cell blocks that do record, then we have 9 quite a few -- I don't have the exact numbers -- out at 10 what we call P-6, which was a boot camp. They 11 don't -- I don't believe they have the recording 12 capability, and we also have one inside the segregation 13 area. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And the P-6, this 15 is a boot camp minimum-security? 16 WARDEN WHEAT: Well, it was initially a 17 boot camp. It's a G-2 custody offenders which are out 18 there and it's a dormitory style. 19 MR. McFARLAND: And the G-4 wings that 20 have the video, is that dorm or cell block? 21 WARDEN WHEAT: It's cell block. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So what can an 23 officer see from that video assuming that somebody's 24 monitoring it? 25 WARDEN WHEAT: You can go back and see Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 21 1 the rungs of the wing from different angles. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Can you see in the cell 3 blocks? 4 WARDEN WHEAT: Inside the cells? 5 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 6 WARDEN WHEAT: Not -- not really. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So you're going to 8 be able to see who came and went -- 9 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 10 MR. McFARLAND: -- from a cell, but not 11 what's going on inside the cell. 12 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. You have gang 14 issues at Estelle, Captains? 15 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Think every unit has 16 them. We do have gang members, but do we have a 17 problem, no, as far as operating, no, sir, in my 18 opinion. 19 MR. McFARLAND: What's your 20 understanding, Captain Jenkins, of the most likely 21 sexual assault victim? What's your -- You've 22 investigated some sexual assault, and I understand that 23 there's some in-service training. Who is most likely 24 to be -- become a victim of sexual assault? 25 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Somebody that's small Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 22 1 stature, young, no self-confidence, probably first-time 2 offender; those type of characteristics. 3 MR. McFARLAND: You mentioned that the 4 last assault, the individual was openly gay or 5 homosexual? 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Both of them were, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: I see. Both the alleged 8 predator and the victim? 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And how did you 11 know that? 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: It was documented in 13 their -- what we call our travel card. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Through interviews, 16 both stated that they were homosexual. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So that's also a 18 vulnerability factor, is their sexual orientation, as 19 you understand it? 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Sure. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Anything else that would 22 tip you off that this person may get victimized like 23 whether they're in a gang or not? 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Possibly. I mean, 25 besides the physical, maybe their mental status. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 23 1 MR. McFARLAND: So mentally -- a 2 developmentally challenged individual might be a higher 3 risk of being victimized? 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Could be, yes, sir. 5 MR. McFARLAND: How about someone on 6 psychiatric medication? 7 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. What about -- I 9 notice that there are a number of folks who are deaf 10 when we passed by a signing class classroom that was 11 fairly full. Would an individual -- an inmate who was 12 deaf or had other sensory loss, would that individual 13 be, in your experience, more likely to be a victim? 14 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Really, anybody can be 15 a victim in a prison cell. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. I'm just talking 17 about -- You got 3,100 inmates to keep on eye on -- 18 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I mean, you got -- Like 19 I said earlier, you've got your stature, young, 20 first-time offender, their medical condition, which 21 could include their mental health status, hearing, 22 blind offenders, older offenders, sure. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Is it fair to say that 24 someone who is -- doesn't have a gang to protect them 25 or to retaliate if something happened to them is more Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 24 1 likely to be a victim? 2 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Not necessarily. 3 MR. McFARLAND: So I don't understand 4 your earlier testimony that gang affiliation might be 5 relevant. Is it completely irrelevant? 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I mean, it can be or -- 7 It can be. Just because an offender is part of a gang 8 does not necessarily mean that he could be a victim to 9 rape. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, or if they're -- 11 What I'm asking is: If a member is known to be -- If 12 an inmate is known to be a gang member, is he more or 13 less likely to become a sexual assault victim, in your 14 experience, if at all? 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: My experience, less 16 likely. 17 MR. McFARLAND: If he's a gang member. 18 CAPTAIN JENKINS: If he's a gang member. 19 MR. McFARLAND: In -- Question to all 20 three of you. Have any of you -- Are any of you aware 21 of any 42(d) disciplinary action at Estelle? 42(d), as 22 you know, is the sexual misconduct with an inmate. In 23 your collective experience at the Estelle Unit, have 24 you ever known of a staff member being disciplined for 25 a 42(d) infraction? Start with you, Captain Dawson. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 25 1 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And you've just 3 been at Estelle for four months. 4 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Captain Jenkins? 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And Warden Wheat. 8 WARDEN WHEAT: I'm not sure if there was 9 a disciplinary. I know, in my time there, there was 10 one instance. I don't remember what year it was that 11 the Office of the Inspector General pursued charges on 12 a staff member for having sex with an offender and that 13 went through the process. Believe there was -- the 14 ex-officer pled out at court when it went to court. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Pled guilty to -- 16 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: -- having -- and do you 18 know what happened to that officer? 19 WARDEN WHEAT: No, sir, I don't. 20 MR. McFARLAND: And how many years ago 21 was that? 22 WARDEN WHEAT: I couldn't say; several 23 years ago. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Are -- Regardless of 25 whether it's a 42(d) infraction or not -- Well, let me Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 26 1 ask about that. Are you aware, any of the three of 2 you, how many times have there been -- has there been 3 disciplinary action taken against a staff member at 4 Estelle, in your experience, for any violation of 5 policy? How many times has somebody you know had to go 6 to a hearing and be disciplined or face possible 7 discipline at Estelle for any rule violation? Captain 8 Dawson? 9 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Pretty much the wardens 10 run disciplinary at least once or twice a week. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So on a weekly 12 basis, if not more, somebody's getting disciplined? 13 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And what's been 15 your experience, Captain Jenkins? 16 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Pretty much the same as 17 far as employee discipline. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So there's nothing 19 broken with the system of bringing up officers on rule 20 violations. I mean, that's happening once or twice a 21 week. Is that right? 22 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: And, Warden Wheat, was 24 that your experience at Estelle? 25 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 27 1 MR. McFARLAND: Happening all the time. 2 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So why do you 4 think that at a unit where rape kits are being 5 regularly -- as we heard yesterday -- regularly used at 6 a unit where, according to the best evidence we have, 7 there is -- there are 208 inmates in one year getting 8 hit on sexually by a staff member, which would be a 9 42(d) violation, why do you suppose that there is not a 10 single 42(d) disciplinary action that you've -- any of 11 you have ever become aware of at that unit? 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Can you define "hit 13 on"? 14 MR. McFARLAND: Having a sexual 15 relationship, sexual contact, anything that would 16 violate, as you understand it, 42(d). You familiar 17 with 42(d), Captain Jenkins? 18 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So I don't care if 20 it's, quote, willing, consensual, if it's for sexual 21 gratification of one or the other. And it involves a 22 staff member, I'm assuming that is a 42(d) violation. 23 Is that correct? 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 25 MR. McFARLAND: So we're not confused Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 28 1 about semantics here. Now, can you answer my question, 2 any of you? 3 WARDEN WHEAT: You're saying 208? 4 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 5 WARDEN WHEAT: Now, that was on the 6 survey? 7 MR. McFARLAND: That was the survey. So, 8 how do you explain the complete absence of any 42(d) 9 discipline in a unit where it's happening -- there are 10 other disciplinary actions happening once and twice a 11 day? 12 WARDEN WHEAT: Those 208 -- 13 MR. McFARLAND: I mean, once or twice a 14 week. 15 WARDEN WHEAT: -- were anonymous 16 allegations on the survey. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yes. 18 WARDEN WHEAT: If the offender reports 19 this, the investigation's going to go through, and any 20 evidence that corroborates that, OIG will proceed with 21 that and will also proceed with the PD-22. If the 22 employee resigns prior to that, now the disciplinary's 23 on hold. I can't hold the officer there if they resign 24 and quit. We can't proceed with the formal employee 25 disciplinary, but the OIG can proceed with the criminal Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 29 1 part of that. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Okay. So maybe 3 the answer is -- What you're saying is, maybe the 4 answer is that 42(d) violations are happening, but the 5 folks are resigning prior to completion of the 6 disciplinary proceeding. Is that what you're saying? 7 WARDEN WHEAT: It's possible. 8 MR. McFARLAND: It's possible. Captains, 9 do you have any ideas about that? 10 CAPTAIN DAWSON: We're sitting here and 11 you're trying to explain to us that 42(d)s are 12 happening. In my experience at the Estelle Unit, our 13 people are very professional. I've only been here 14 four, four and a half months, but the only thing I've 15 seen at Estelle, the officers -- my correctional 16 staff -- you know, I can't talk for first and second. 17 But my correctional staff, you know, they are trained 18 to identify -- They're trained on PD-29, which is 19 inappropriate relationships, and we stress to them that 20 it is a state jail felony; that you can go to jail for 21 it. And, you know, bottom line, these inmates and 22 officers will come tell you. What I mean by that is, 23 you know, because of their integrity. They will come 24 tell us. So, am I surprised? I wasn't there in 2006, 25 but am I surprised? Well, one thing I have seen in my Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 30 1 career, in my twelve-year -- and it's not a long 2 career -- is that inmates are manipulative. And what I 3 mean by that is, will they always tell the truth, no. 4 And, again, if they think that they're being harassed 5 in any manner, or, "How can I get back at that system 6 or that department or that unit? Hey, you know, I'll 7 put some things on the survey." 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And what happens 9 if they -- if an inmate is caught in an inappropriate 10 relationship with a staff member? What are the 11 implications for the inmate? 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: The inmate's going to 13 receive disciplinary sanctions and he will be shipped 14 due to the security of the -- of that incident. 15 MR. McFARLAND: So it has some 16 repercussion for him. 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Right, yes, sir. 18 CAPTAIN DAWSON: And also the officer -- 19 The officer will be also written a disciplinary and 20 we'll forward it to the upper administration. 21 CAPTAIN JENKINS: And be referred to the 22 OIG. 23 CAPTAIN DAWSON: OIG because it's 24 criminal. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And the inmate could get Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 31 1 an addition to his sentence. Is that correct? 2 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Just depends what the 3 charge is. If the officer brought in tobacco, 4 marijuana, cell phone, monies, things of that nature 5 and he's in -- That's OIG; only if OIG pursues it. I 6 cannot give him additional time. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, I understand. I 8 understand that an inmate -- Mr. Quarterman, is there a 9 need for your testimony at this time? 10 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes, sir, if you don't 11 mind. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Well, actually, I do. 13 With all due respect, sir, I want to hear just from 14 these gentlemen. If there's something that you want to 15 append or amend to your testimony, we'll certainly make 16 a provision in the day, but I -- I'm concerned that 17 given your position and authority over these gentlemen, 18 that it may be -- it may influence their testimony. 19 MR. QUARTERMAN: Okay. I respect that. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you, sir. Where 21 were we? Oh, if an inmate is guilty of compromising a 22 staff member to -- you know, to bring in contraband, it 23 can add to their inmate's sentence. Is that correct? 24 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Just asking for -- 25 MR. McFARLAND: No, no. If an inmate had Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 32 1 a sexual relationship with a staff member, now the 2 staff member is at risk of losing their job, isn't it 3 true that a victim -- a inmate could extort certain 4 favors from that officer? Is that correct? 5 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. They could 6 manipulate that officer, yes, sir,. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, so -- and if 8 caught, the inmate, what are the implications other 9 than being written up? Can that -- Can they be 10 criminally prosecuted? 11 CAPTAIN JENKINS: That's something for 12 OIG. 13 MR. McFARLAND: I understand, but in your 14 understanding from the seventeen years at -- 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, it can be -- 16 MR. McFARLAND: -- Estelle Unit -- 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- but it's up to OIG 18 and the district attorney. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, absolutely. You 20 don't make that decision, but have you seen inmates get 21 additions to their sentence for extortion, manipulation 22 of staff, bringing in -- getting staff to bring in 23 contraband. 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: If the offender's been 25 caught with the contraband like cell phones, drugs, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 33 1 yes. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. All right. 3 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, I have seen that. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So isn't it true 5 that inmates have a disincentive? If they thought that 6 during the survey that it wasn't all that confidential 7 and that they, by answering that they have, in fact, 8 have had romantic or sexual relations with staff 9 members, they could just as easily get some additional 10 years added to their sentence? Isn't that true that 11 there's -- while they may be manipulative and they may 12 be liars, it's not in their interest to over report and 13 to make up allegations that they have committed 14 felonies with inmates -- with staff. Is that -- Is 15 that fair to say? 16 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Can you repeat the 17 whole question? You confused me when you -- 18 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 19 CAPTAIN JENKINS: It was a long question. 20 I mean -- 21 MR. McFARLAND: I'm trying to understand 22 what you think of this survey, Captains, and I've heard 23 you say, "Well, inmates are liars," or a lot of them 24 are. "They're manipulators, and if they don't like 25 what's going on, they're going to try to screw their Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 34 1 officers any time they can." Okay? 2 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Well, we didn't say, you 3 know -- 4 MR. McFARLAND: Well, you didn't -- I -- 5 I'm putting in common parlance. Forgive me. 6 CAPTAIN DAWSON: About that survey, sir, 7 I've never seen the survey. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 9 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Okay? Yesterday was the 10 first time I heard about the allegations of sexual 11 misconduct by staff. It's just when you hear that, 12 it's -- When you work there every day, you don't see 13 it. I cannot see where they would have the time and 14 the opportunity. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 16 CAPTAIN DAWSON: You know, because when 17 you're talking 208, that's a lot that's going on. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, it sure is. 19 CAPTAIN DAWSON: And for another officer 20 or supervisor or another inmate to see that and not 21 report it? From -- Since I've been there, if something 22 happens and -- an inmate will report it. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, and that's in your 24 four months. I understand. But my question is about 25 whether an inmate at Estelle has just as much reason to Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 35 1 under report, to not admit on a -- even on a, quote, 2 anonymous survey -- that they've been having sexual 3 relations and committing felonies with staff are just 4 as likely to not report it because they can get written 5 up and they can be doing some serious time for 6 admitting that. 7 WARDEN WHEAT: Excuse me, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Go ahead, Captains. 9 My -- Isn't that not the case? 10 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, no, that's not what 11 we're saying. You're talking about if an offender is 12 manipulating a staff member, if that offender is caught 13 with those items, yes, he could receive extra time. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: If a offender is raped 16 by a staff member, that offender is not going to get 17 time for being raped. 18 MR. McFARLAND: But if it's consensual -- 19 How about if they -- 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Even if it was 21 consensual. Well -- 22 MR. McFARLAND: I know we don't say it's 23 consensual, but a number of them say that it was 24 willing. 25 CAPTAIN JENKINS: If an officer has had Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 36 1 sexual relations with an offender, the officer is the 2 main focus of the criminal charges. If an offender 3 manipulates a staff member to get that staff member to 4 bring items in that are considered dangerous in the 5 prison, such as drugs, cell phone, money, then both 6 parties are going to be held liable. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 8 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Now, on that survey -- 9 It was an anonymous survey, so they could easily -- I 10 mean, even if they knew -- even if the offender is 11 doing it or not, they know there's no repercussions if 12 they fill out that survey to them -- 13 MR. McFARLAND: Unless -- 14 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- because how are 15 y'all going to know who's filling that survey out or 16 not -- 17 MR. McFARLAND: That was -- 18 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- so it's not fair to 19 say that they're scared to report it even to us or 20 anything beyond that survey. 21 MR. McFARLAND: That assumes that they 22 believe that it's anonymous. Isn't that right? 23 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Well, if they didn't 24 put their name on it, then I would guess it would be 25 anonymous. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 37 1 MR. McFARLAND: Unless you're monitoring 2 what they're saying, what their answers are, but, 3 anyway, we don't have to debate that. But it sounds 4 like you have studied the survey, Captain Jenkins. Is 5 that correct? 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I looked it over a 7 little bit, sir, yes. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. What preparation 9 have y'all had, an opportunity, to do for your 10 testimony today? You know, who have you spoken to, 11 been briefed by? 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: We talked to 13 Mr. Quarterman Wednesday, just -- basically just let us 14 know we were going to be testifying in a hearing and 15 that's about it. 16 MR. McFARLAND: You had an opportunity to 17 review any files or refresh your recollection with any 18 documents? 19 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir. Whatever I did 20 on my own is just look at the Safe Prisons Program just 21 to keep it close to my mind. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Great, great. Warden 23 Wheat, did you have something you want to say? 24 WARDEN WHEAT: I was just going to 25 clarify what Lieutenant Jenkins was saying. I've never Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 38 1 seen an offender processed through the legal system for 2 having sex with an employee. 3 MR. McFARLAND: In fact, you haven't seen 4 anybody -- any 42(d) disciplinary action at Estelle. 5 Isn't that correct? 6 WARDEN WHEAT: I don't know if I have or 7 haven't. 8 MR. McFARLAND: But you know they 9 wouldn't be prosecuted if they were. The inmate 10 wouldn't be prosecuted. 11 WARDEN WHEAT: No, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: But you can't remember a 13 single 42(d) violation in which a staff member's been 14 disciplined, either. 15 WARDEN WHEAT: I don't know if the 16 disciplinary went through or not, if there was one on 17 file. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Gentlemen, who are the 19 most likely -- What's the profile of a sexual predator, 20 in your understanding? We talked about the 21 characteristics of someone who is more likely than not 22 to be a victim. Who are you looking for as a predator? 23 CAPTAIN DAWSON: They can be big in 24 stature. They got a good talk game. They have a lot 25 of money on the books, you know, has raped somebody in Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 39 1 the past, you know, and just total size and if he has a 2 medical disorder. 3 MR. McFARLAND: A medical disorder? 4 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I shouldn't have said 5 that. I'm looking at the medical term, but I don't 6 know what it was, so we can mark that -- scratch it. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Well, regardless of what 8 the term is, I'm trying to clarify what you mean. 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I'd like to add a 10 little bit, too. You're also looking at offenders that 11 have been raped themselves. You're also looking at 12 offenders that could have committed a sexual crime to 13 get in there, so, therefore, what the Captain, I think, 14 was trying to say was somebody like a serial rapist, or 15 somebody with sexual issues mentally that would have 16 them always like a child molester; people like that. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Is gang 18 affiliation related, in your experience, to being more 19 or less likely to be a predator? 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No. To be honest, a 21 lot of the gangs frown on stuff like that; that's why 22 they get in the gangs. They don't believe in 23 committing rapes and stuff like that. 24 MR. McFARLAND: They don't believe in 25 sexual assault at all or in homosexual conduct? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 40 1 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Homosexual conduct. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Would gangs frown on 3 heterosexual contact between a female staff member and 4 a male inmate? 5 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Majority of them do 6 because the majority of your gangs in prison do not 7 want the attention from security to do their illegal 8 activities or whatever they want to try to do, so, 9 therefore, the less attention that they get from us -- 10 That's the way they see it, so they stay away from the 11 staff, respect the staff and not commit those type of 12 homosexuality incidents. It kind of keeps them off our 13 radar. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, but I'm talking 15 about heterosexual, not homosexual. 16 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Same thing, even 17 heterosexual, like I said, with staff. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. If -- Question to 19 all three of you. If I told you that at Estelle last 20 night there was a sexual assault, inmate-on-inmate, 21 where'd be the first place you'd look? Captain 22 Jenkins? 23 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Hopefully I'd get more 24 information than just that, but if that's all that I 25 got, my main areas on my shift I would look at would be Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 41 1 the showers because that's the shift that does the 2 majority of the showers, housing blocks locations. 3 That's -- 2:00 to 10:00 is when the majority of the 4 inmates are in their house or in their showers, all the 5 workers come in. I'm going to look at some of the work 6 areas such as laundry, kitchen, try to do some 7 interviews, have some of the staff walk the wings to 8 look and see if they can maybe identify somebody that 9 might have been assaulted. I'm going to give them 10 medical; maybe that offender did go to medical for some 11 injury, but lied about how they got those injuries. 12 Stuff like that. 13 MR. McFARLAND: That's very helpful. So 14 in terms of where you think are the most likely places, 15 the showers, the housing block, laundry, kitchen. 16 Anywhere else? Where would be the places that -- any 17 other places that would raise your suspicion or you 18 think would be, quote, safer for an inmate -- for a 19 couple of inmates to engage in sexual activity? 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Those are basically 21 the -- 22 MR. McFARLAND: Are there closets in 23 Estelle? 24 CAPTAIN DAWSON: There's some on the 25 wings, but -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 42 1 CAPTAIN JENKINS: But they're locked. 2 MR. McFARLAND: They're locked. Okay. 3 And by "housing blocks," do you mean in the cells or in 4 the dayrooms? 5 CAPTAIN JENKINS: In the cells. 6 MR. McFARLAND: In the cells. Okay. 7 Warden Wheat, at your experience at Estelle, where 8 would you want to look other than what's been 9 mentioned? 10 WARDEN WHEAT: Same thing that Captain 11 Jenkins said. I would need the information. It could 12 happen anywhere. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, yeah. I'm just 14 trying to think, you know, given that y'all are the 15 experts about that facility, you know every nook and 16 cranny -- or at least, Captain Jenkins, Warden Wheat 17 do. Trying to figure out where do you think the safe 18 places are and where the risky places are, so showers, 19 in the cells, the laundry room, the kitchen. Anything 20 else -- Anywhere else? 21 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I'd say possibly the 22 work area. We got a big textile mill that they have 23 open spots. 24 MR. McFARLAND: And are there non-visible 25 places in the textile mill? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 43 1 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I think so, but I 2 cannot -- don't quote me on this one, but -- Don't they 3 have cameras? 4 MR. McFARLAND: What's that? 5 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I was just -- I didn't 6 know if textile had cameras back there. They've got 7 mirrors on most of their blind areas. They've got big 8 mirrors where staff can -- The textile staff walk 9 around constantly, keep on eye on the workers. There's 10 mirrors located in several locations for where they can 11 kind of look over here, look over there and continue to 12 make their rounds. They don't have a lot of them, but 13 they've got a few in their blind spots. 14 MR. McFARLAND: When do y'all have 15 occasion to be in the laundry in the course of your 16 duties? I assume third shift doesn't -- the laundry's 17 closed down. Right? 18 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Second shift, laundry 20 still function? 21 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Because that's 2:00 in 23 the afternoon that it starts. 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Correct. 25 MR. McFARLAND: So in the course of your Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 44 1 duties, Captain Jenkins, you're familiar with the 2 laundry and the layout and so forth? 3 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Now, as we went 5 through it yesterday, there's some pretty big pieces of 6 equipment in there. Right? 7 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And there is some room 9 out of sight behind those big pieces of equipment. 10 Isn't that correct? 11 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: So to be brutally frank, 13 if somebody wanted to take a couple of minutes and have 14 oral sex with an inmate, another inmate, they could 15 easily find a place to do it in the laundry, out of 16 sight, even if -- and there are no cameras. And I 17 didn't see any mirrors in the laundry. Is that a fair 18 statement? 19 CAPTAIN JENKINS: As long as staff are 20 back there in the laundry room and walking around like 21 they're supposed to, no. I would say they wouldn't 22 have -- It wouldn't be that long of a chance. 23 MR. McFARLAND: During your shift, how 24 many correctional officers are assigned to the laundry? 25 CAPTAIN JENKINS: They're not assigned to Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 45 1 me. 2 MR. McFARLAND: I see. So you don't know 3 how many there are in there. 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: There should be three, 5 I believe; two to three. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Two to three. Okay. And 7 are they stationed? Is there -- I didn't see any 8 command center there. 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: There is an office in 10 there -- 11 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- in the laundry. 13 MR. McFARLAND: And somebody's supposed 14 to be -- 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: And they stay in there 16 on the floor. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So -- Yeah. I 18 remember the office. So if the two or three 19 correctional officers are staying in the office, they 20 don't have a line of sight everywhere in that laundry, 21 do they? 22 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, sir, they don't. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And the kitchen, 24 are y'all familiar with -- Warden Wheat, are you 25 familiar with the layout of the kitchen and the food Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 46 1 preparation area at Estelle? 2 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Are there places that a 4 couple of inmates could be out of sight from 5 correctional officers there? 6 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Where? 8 WARDEN WHEAT: The whole facility just 9 about. 10 MR. McFARLAND: It's -- 11 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: And there are no convex 13 mirrors. There are no cameras in there. 14 WARDEN WHEAT: Well, unless the staff 15 member is right there. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 17 WARDEN WHEAT: I mean, there's -- Just 18 virtually the whole unit you could say. 19 MR. McFARLAND: You could say what? 20 WARDEN WHEAT: Could be a blind spot. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. The whole kitchen 22 preparation area. 23 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: You remember the cooler 25 where meat is cut up? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 47 1 WARDEN WHEAT: Well, I'm not sure of the 2 specific -- 3 MR. McFARLAND: It's the first steel door 4 on your right when you go through the cage into the 5 cooler refrigerator area. Did you want to say 6 something? 7 CAPTAIN DAWSON: It's the second door to 8 your right. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Second door to your 10 right. Okay. We were told that two inmates can be in 11 there cutting up meat unaccompanied. Is that your 12 understanding? 13 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And how long can 15 they be in there without -- and there are no windows 16 into the cooler, so how long can they be in there 17 without supervision? We have no idea, do we? 18 WARDEN WHEAT: No specific time. 19 CAPTAIN DAWSON: See, we can't speak on 20 the kitchen's behalf. You know, again, security staff 21 is always mobile. We're moving around. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, I understand. 23 CAPTAIN DAWSON: We try to catch inmates 24 doing stuff, making sure that they're doing what 25 they're supposed to be doing, so the anticipation is Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 48 1 that, you know, "Hey, we ain't got time to do this." 2 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Captain Dawson, is 3 the kitchen open during your shift? 4 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir, when we feed 5 breakfast meal. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So you know which 7 door it is on the right. 8 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 10 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Now, that's not open 11 because they don't cut meat until the first shift. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So that's -- 13 During your shift, the butcher cooler is locked. 14 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. But during yours, 16 Captain Jenkins, it's unlocked. Is that correct? 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I believe it's unlocked 18 till five o'clock and then it's locked, I believe. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And the first 20 shift starts at 6:00 a.m. Correct? 21 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: So from 6:00 a.m. to 23 5:00 p.m., two inmates can be in the butcher area 24 completely unsupervised and without supervision, 25 without any line of sight for the correctional officer. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 49 1 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Well, we do have count 2 times to where they're pulled out. 3 MR. McFARLAND: That's right. So at 4 ten o'clock and 4:00 p.m., there's something -- they 5 gotta come out of there. 6 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. But, again, 7 we don't have no kitchen staff here, so I can't say 8 that they're not being supervised on a half-hour, 9 hourly basis. You know, we know that we can't afford 10 their tools and stuff like that. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, yeah. So they'd 12 have to be interrupted in their sexual activity every 13 half an hour or hour in the butcher area. 14 CAPTAIN DAWSON: That's you saying that. 15 That's not me. 16 MR. McFARLAND: No, I'm asking. You just 17 indicated that they might be interrupted every half an 18 hour or an hour by a kitchen staff. 19 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I can't tell you what 20 their protocol is. 21 MR. McFARLAND: That's right. 22 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Because they have an 23 officer that -- 24 MR. McFARLAND: Because it's closed 25 during your shift. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 50 1 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir, but they do 2 have an officer assigned to that back slab area to 3 where he may be in there every five minutes. I don't 4 know. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, he could be in 6 there every five minutes. And you mentioned the 7 showers. Estelle is not a dormitory layout. Is that 8 correct? 9 CAPTAIN DAWSON: That's correct. 10 CAPTAIN JENKINS: We've got one -- We've 11 got one door on the inside of the unit, which is a 12 geriatric facility -- 13 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, I saw that. 14 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- and we've got two 15 doors outside the main building, which is your 16 substance abuse. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. Okay. So 18 outside the geriatric and the substance abuse, about 98 19 percent of the population is in cell-block design, 20 residential units. Is that correct? 21 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Correct. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And where are the 23 showers in relation to -- in each cell block -- not 24 talking about high security? 25 CAPTAIN JENKINS: The showers are located Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 51 1 right in front of what we call the searchers desks. 2 We've got one on the north end, which is right in front 3 of the north desk, and the other one -- I'm sorry. The 4 other one's closer to the central control. It's called 5 the south shower and it's connected to the laundry. 6 MR. McFARLAND: It's connected to the 7 laundry? 8 CAPTAIN JENKINS: The back area of it is, 9 the main box area. Where they pass the clothes out, 10 it's connected to the laundry. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So is there a 12 direct line of sight into the showers from a command 13 center or from -- 14 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir, there is. 15 From the boxed area, there is. 16 MR. McFARLAND: And so a correctional 17 officer could see into all of the showers at all times? 18 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Great. There are no 20 doors. There are no curtains. 21 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, sir, none. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Warden Wheat, if 23 an inmate wanted to report that they were unwillingly 24 being subjected to sexual advances by a staff member, 25 how would they be able to report that? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 52 1 WARDEN WHEAT: They could do it in 2 writing or they could tell another staff member or 3 supervisor at any time. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Any other ways 5 other than talking to a staff member? 6 WARDEN WHEAT: You could report it in 7 writing, correspondence to an official, to OIG, to an 8 outside entity. 9 MR. McFARLAND: How do they get it to 10 them? 11 WARDEN WHEAT: They can drop it in the 12 mailbox or they can personally give it to them. 13 MR. McFARLAND: When does an inmate have 14 an opportunity to hand a note to OIG investigator? 15 WARDEN WHEAT: That would probably be 16 mailed. I was speaking as far as security supervisor. 17 You're out in the hallways during mass movement and 18 they're accessible and then the correctional officers 19 that they come in contact with. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Do you think 21 there's any reason for an inmate to -- who has 22 manipulated or compromised or unwillingly been sexually 23 involved with a staff member to be reluctant to go 24 through the same staff with their complaint or passing 25 a kite to somebody, you know, who works with the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 53 1 predator? Do you think that would be something they 2 would think twice about doing? 3 CAPTAIN DAWSON: You're saying hand a 4 letter to any staff member? 5 MR. McFARLAND: Any staff member. 6 CAPTAIN DAWSON: These inmates do give 7 reports on their staff members. "This officer does a 8 good job," or, "I go to school. I like the principal. 9 You know, I'll hand it off to her." You know, so I 10 wouldn't think it would be a problem that he thinks he 11 couldn't turn it in to anybody. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Captain Jenkins? 13 CAPTAIN JENKINS: They don't have to give 14 it to a staff member, anyway. They can give it to a 15 medical person. They can talk to their psychologist, 16 if they have one. They can tell their boss at work, 17 because we have a TX-Dot -- For example, they're not 18 security, so they can tell them and then they could do 19 numerous things. They could write a letter to the 20 Ombudsman office. They can write it to the OIG's 21 office. They can write it pretty much to any official, 22 and once they get it, they refer it to the proper 23 channels. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Would they tell it to a 25 chaplain? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 54 1 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Sure. They could talk 2 to a chaplain also; any staff member. This includes 3 security and any other employee member at that unit. 4 They can tell anybody. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Now, where do they 6 get an I-60? They have to get it from a correctional 7 officer. Is that right? 8 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir, but they can use 9 a sheet of paper, write their concerns -- 10 MR. McFARLAND: They could write on 11 toilet paper. 12 WARDEN WHEAT: They could write on toilet 13 paper, sir, and put "I-60" on it and it'll go where it 14 needs to go. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Now, are the I-60s 16 numerically numbered so that you can keep track of -- 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, sir. 18 MR. McFARLAND: -- where they go? 19 CAPTAIN JENKINS: They're not. 20 MR. McFARLAND: So if somebody didn't use 21 toilet paper but used an I-60 and wrote that, "Hey, 22 last night Officer So-and-So came in and forced me to 23 masturbate him. I want to see" -- "I want something 24 done about this," and they wrote that on an I-60 and he 25 gave it to somebody that ended up deciding that it Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 55 1 wouldn't be in the interest of the institution for it 2 to be discovered and just accidently lost it, there 3 would be no way for you to track, "Hey, you know, we 4 numbered these, you know. We notice that this I-60 5 disappeared. We wonder if Officer Jones had that and 6 gave it out and it never made it's way up the ladder." 7 Is that accurate that if it's not numbered, you're not 8 going to know if it just got wadded up and thrown away? 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Correct. We won't. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Is it done the same way 11 at Coffield, Warden Wheat? 12 WARDEN WHEAT: Forwarding of I-60s? 13 MR. McFARLAND: The I-60s are not 14 numbered or tracked. 15 WARDEN WHEAT: No, sir. An I-60 is just 16 like a notepad with a specific form and they have 17 access to. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Is there a code of 19 silence at Estelle among officers like, "We take care 20 of our own"? 21 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Not to my knowledge, 22 no, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: In your four months 24 there, Captain Dawson, have you sensed that there would 25 be any repercussions -- would be a bit less popular Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 56 1 with the staff if you were known as somebody who would 2 snitch on them if you saw a rule violation by a staff 3 member? 4 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir. That's not 5 what I've seen. I've seen good rapport there. The 6 inmates know that the staff is very approachable. 7 They'll approach staff. The wardens are always out 8 there. Everybody's very approachable. That's why I 9 was so impressed about -- at the Estelle Unit and, you 10 know, I like the unit because I feel safe there. 11 MR. McFARLAND: How about your years at 12 Darrington? Did the staff willingly report on one 13 another? 14 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Occasionally, 15 occasionally. 16 MR. McFARLAND: So you were less 17 impressed at Darrington with the staffs' willingness to 18 be vigilant about -- 19 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. Team work, 20 yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: So Estelle is more 22 impressive about it in that way. 23 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. How about Wynne, 25 the Wynne Unit? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 57 1 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I would have to put that 2 up there with Estelle. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. In your experience 4 at Darrington, did you ever become aware of any sexual 5 assault, either inmate-on-inmate or staff-on-inmate? 6 Ever hear about any such incident? 7 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Staff sleeping with 8 offenders? 9 MR. McFARLAND: I don't know about 10 sleeping, but any kind of sexual contact between staff 11 and inmate. Let's start with that one. 12 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: You heard about that. 14 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 15 MR. McFARLAND: A lot? 16 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. In fact, 18 Darrington kind of has a reputation of being pretty 19 sexually active of inmates-on-staff and vice versa. 20 Isn't that right? 21 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I assume, yes, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I don't want to put 23 words in your mouth. I mean, I'm gathering that it has 24 something of a reputation among your fellow officers as 25 a place that's a little out of control in that regard. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 58 1 Is that correct? 2 CAPTAIN DAWSON: A little bit. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And how many 4 42(b) -- whatever it is. How many disciplinary 5 hearings related to staff-on-inmate sexual misconduct 6 happened at Darrington during your experience? 7 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Okay. I can recall none 8 of those, but a lot of possession of contraband and 9 trafficking and trade. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, you were 11 saying that there's a lot of sexual activity going on. 12 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Heard it, heard it. 13 Heard it, never caught it. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Heard it, but never 15 caught it. 16 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: And you never heard of a 18 single staff member ever being brought up on charges 19 for doing that. Is that right? 20 CAPTAIN DAWSON: For sexual? 21 MR. McFARLAND: Yes. 22 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 24 MS. ELLIS: Good morning. 25 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Good morning. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 59 1 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Good morning. 2 MS. ELLIS: Are there racial tensions at 3 Estelle happening? 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Not -- 5 MS. ELLIS: None that you're aware of? 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, ma'am. 7 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, ma'am. 8 MS. ELLIS: If an officer came upon two 9 offenders engaging in sex in their cell, is there a 10 protocol for how that activity would be interrupted? 11 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, ma'am. What we do 12 is we explain to our officers, if you walk up on two 13 inmates having sex, that is considered a sexual 14 assault, which at this time you'll order them to stop. 15 If they don't stop, you're going to pull out your 16 chemical agents. Okay? You're going to order them 17 again to stop, and if they continue, then they will 18 administer chemical agents. They'll call for 19 additional staff, the supervisor, video camera, then we 20 go from there. 21 MS. ELLIS: Would that be a loud 22 encounter that would be heard throughout the block by 23 other offenders? Would they necessarily say, "I cannot 24 believe that you are engaging in this activity in front 25 of me in my area?" Would it be that kind of encounter Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 60 1 so that everybody was aware? 2 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Well, what we try to 3 tell our bosses, the -- You know, our key word is to 4 yell "fight." You'll get everybody's ears perked on 5 up. You'll get quicker response when you yell "fight." 6 MS. ELLIS: And after that, that kind of 7 discovery, is there any discussion of that? Is there 8 any debrief, so to speak, on what has happened to 9 offenders engaged in any kind of -- 10 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Once we do our 11 allegation -- not alleg-- our paperwork, our 12 investigation, we have the CRIS for the officers. You 13 know, if they feel upset, you know, disturbed on what 14 they've seen, we have certified officers that can talk 15 to them and refer them to EAP, if necessary. 16 MS. ELLIS: Share, again, the information 17 of how you investigate an offender's request for 18 safekeeping. 19 CAPTAIN DAWSON: What we would do? 20 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 21 CAPTAIN DAWSON: If an inmate's 22 requesting safekeeping, the first thing, you know, 23 we -- I talk to them and, "Okay. Why do you want 24 safekeeping," because it's a little bit different than 25 (a) my life's in danger. He may -- He may request Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 61 1 safekeeping because "I don't want to be in general 2 population because of my size, stature," but basically 3 what we're going to do, we're going to file an LID, an 4 OPI, an offender investigation. We're going to base 5 everything on facts. We're going to look at his '07 6 screens. It's on the computer. Is he a homosexual? 7 Has he been a victim before? We look at his 8 disciplinary history. We look at his classification 9 folder, and if he has any additional information that 10 he can give to us, then we write the report. You know, 11 we don't recommend. The only thing we do is write the 12 facts down and then it goes to the UCC Committee. 13 MS. ELLIS: Do offenders frequently 14 request safekeeping? 15 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I'm on third shift. I 16 don't have a lot that, say, you know, "I want 17 safekeeping," but I do have inmates that say that, "I'm 18 in fear for my life." 19 MS. ELLIS: In your experience, have you 20 accepted more of those requests than rejected them? 21 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Accepted as far as? 22 MS. ELLIS: Accepted in terms of placing 23 them in safekeeping. 24 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Well, what I do is I 25 place them in transient. I cannot put them in Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 62 1 safekeeping. I'll put them in transient, conduct the 2 investigation, then the UCC -- 3 MS. ELLIS: Makes that -- 4 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, ma'am. 5 MS. ELLIS: Captain Jenkins -- 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, ma'am? 7 MS. ELLIS: -- do you believe that there 8 is a culture of reporting at Estelle that Safe Prisons 9 was instituted, of course, to create a system of 10 reporting for safety purposes? Do you believe that 11 that's pretty much ingrained and that inmates would 12 report? Have you -- Do you sense that that is the 13 culture there, open? 14 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, ma'am. Like 15 Captain Dawson said earlier and Warden Wheat, as a 16 supervisor, I'm out in the hallway most of my time 17 between 2:00 to 10:00. I always have inmates come up 18 to me and talk to me from a mirage of things. And me 19 personally, I've had staff call me and inform me that 20 an offender's just informed them that they fear for 21 their life, or they can't get along with their cellmate 22 and they need to move. I have offenders that approach 23 me themselves all the time about trying to get a move, 24 or they allege their life's in danger, so I don't see 25 any problem with an offender coming to me or my staff Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 63 1 to report anything. 2 MS. ELLIS: Warden, I take it that you 3 are familiar with the report. That you are familiar 4 with the report? 5 WARDEN WHEAT: I've scanned over it. 6 MS. ELLIS: Scanned over it? And I'd 7 like to hear a little more about your reaction to the 8 report. 9 WARDEN WHEAT: I was surprised at the 10 numbers and disappointed that it showed we had a -- the 11 numbers that high. 12 MS. ELLIS: You were surprised at the 13 numbers? 14 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, ma'am. 15 MS. ELLIS: Well, given the numbers, 16 given the data, given the information, what are your 17 thoughts about where you might go from here? 18 WARDEN WHEAT: Well, I take it as any 19 survey and keep it as a management tool; take it 20 back, let the staff know these are the numbers of this 21 survey and use that. 22 MS. ELLIS: Are you satisfied that staff 23 understands the importance of this document? 24 WARDEN WHEAT: I don't know the staff 25 understands the document, but I know they understand Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 64 1 the importance of Safe Prison and we emphasize that. 2 MS. ELLIS: And that they are thoroughly 3 trained regarding Safe Prisons? 4 WARDEN WHEAT: We'll continually train 5 them. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Y'all familiar with the 7 TDCJ Administrative Directive, 4.68, Offenders 8 Requiring Single-Cell Housing? 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: (Witness nodding head.) 10 CAPTAIN DAWSON: (Witness nodding head.) 11 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Wheat, as the 12 assistant warden at Coffield, are you familiar with the 13 four categories of offenders who may require 14 single-cell? This is a document dated October 2003 in 15 the Correctional Institutions Division Classification 16 Plan. 17 WARDEN WHEAT: Okay. 18 MR. McFARLAND: And it talks about -- 19 Does that ring a bell? Are you familiar with this? 20 Counsel has a document that she may wish to show you. 21 It talks about three types of -- talks about four 22 categories of offenders who need single cells. 23 Offenders whose medical treatment plans recommend that 24 they be housed in a cell alone. Offenders assessed to 25 be mentally retarded. Psychiatric Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 65 1 inpatients/psychiatric outpatients whose individual 2 treatment plans recommend that they be housed in 3 single-cell. And for safekeeping in particular, there 4 are two categories which are identified. Offenders for 5 whom there is currently no acceptable cell partner, and 6 that includes offenders that have sex-related problems 7 as demonstrated by either in-prison or out-of-prison 8 behavior, or weak offenders who are easily exploited 9 due to age, size, developmental impairment, physical 10 weakness and other similar traits, and offenders with 11 other characteristics like enemies, incompatibility 12 with cellmates and so forth. Who makes judgments? Who 13 determines -- makes judgments about these individual 14 characteristics? 15 WARDEN WHEAT: It's reviewed by the Unit 16 Classification Committee. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay, the UCC. Do y'all 18 have training on how to determine who might be a 19 candidate for a single cell, or do you leave that 20 completely up to the UCC? 21 CAPTAIN DAWSON: UCC. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Captain Jenkins? 23 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Same thing, what 24 Captain Dawson said. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So you're not -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 66 1 You don't keep an eye out for individuals who may 2 qualify and refer them to the classification officer or 3 do you? 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: We do, yes, sir. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So if you see that 6 somebody might be mentally retarded -- I guess is the 7 term used in the document -- or, you know, inpatient or 8 outpatient psychiatric person, you're going to make 9 sure that they're referred on to the unit 10 classification officer for single-cell consideration? 11 CAPTAIN JENKINS: And not just because of 12 those reasons. I mean, if I see an offender that could 13 be an easy victim, including those things you just 14 said, yes. I'm going to recommend him to UCC to be 15 moved to a different cell block, maybe safekeeping 16 or -- 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Captain Jenkins, 18 when's the last time you did that? 19 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Probably about eight 20 months ago. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Tell me about it, if you 22 would. 23 CAPTAIN JENKINS: There was an older 24 inmate that was in the building and he was having 25 problems walking back and forth into the hall. To me, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 67 1 he looked like he could be a victim, so I got with the 2 classification and I requested to have them submit him 3 and be moved to the geriatric center -- 4 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 5 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- where he'd be housed 6 with offenders his age and his medical capacity. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Have you ever had a 8 similar conversation or initiated a referral, if you 9 will, to the classification officer for an inmate 10 because you thought that they were -- they had 11 characteristics that would make them a sexual assault 12 victim, not just -- You know, I think some of the 13 characteristics that you testified to earlier is small, 14 you know, weak, naive, not very streetwise. 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: That's what I meant by 16 that, what I just said, yeah. 17 MR. McFARLAND: All right. So it wasn't 18 that you thought that -- All right. You mentioned that 19 this individual is physically immobile when -- 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: When I said "victim," I 21 meant victim of sexual assault, extortion, a victim of 22 anything. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Because it appeared to 25 me he probably couldn't defend himself very well -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 68 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 2 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- so that's -- 3 therefore, I wanted to get him moved to a safer 4 environment, environment housed with offenders that are 5 like him, which would be the geriatrics center. 6 MR. McFARLAND: And when was -- When else 7 have you referred somebody because of your concerns for 8 their victimization? 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I've done it before, 10 but I can't remember the specific time. 11 MR. McFARLAND: And how many times in 12 your seventeen years? 13 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I've done it pretty 14 regularly. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And how about your 16 fellow captains like the first-shift captain? When you 17 start the second shift, he's supposed to -- he or she 18 is supposed to talk to you about what happened in the 19 first shift. Right? 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: And would that be a topic 22 that he or she would -- should mention to you? "Oh, I 23 referred for possible single-cell consideration Inmate 24 Jones because, you know, he's -- You know, he's 25 five-foot-three and effeminate and I'm thinking he's an Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 69 1 accident waiting to happen." 2 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: More likely I know 5 what Captain Dawson and myself and other captains do, 6 is if we see that offender as a victim, we're going to 7 go ahead and move him and isolate him in transient 8 until we get the response from the Unit Classifications 9 and State Classification for the decision whether it be 10 safekeeping or to move to the geriatric center. We 11 can't just move that offender because we feel like he's 12 beat up and we've got to get authorization, so we would 13 go ahead and move that offender to a safer place, 14 isolate him from everybody else just in case. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Do you have room to move 16 them to a safer place? 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Most of the time, yes, 18 sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: What makes it a safer 20 place? What are we talking about, a different cellmate 21 or a single cell? 22 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No. It'll be a single 23 cell and it will be away from all the others. 24 MR. McFARLAND: So you've got some empty 25 cells that you can move people to? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 70 1 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. You ever heard of 3 an instance where somebody couldn't be moved to 4 safekeeping because you ran out of beds, ran out of 5 safekeeping beds? 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Me personally, no, 7 because I'm not around when they get the decision from 8 State Class. All I do is write a report on the 9 investigation or my view on the offender and submit it 10 and then -- 11 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, I understand that, 12 but you said that you, on a number of occasions, have 13 referred people that you thought were vulnerable to 14 sexual assault or other assault. 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Correct. 16 MR. McFARLAND: And you said that you 17 would pass on information from one shift to the next. 18 I assume you would inform Captain Dawson if you moved 19 somebody to a single cell. Right? 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Do you never find 22 out what happens? I mean, do you just -- 23 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I wouldn't say that. I 24 have seen offenders not being moved, if that's what 25 you're asking. I have seen them not be moved where I Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 71 1 thought they should be moved. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, but you didn't have 3 all the factors. 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Right. I mean, there 5 could be reasons why he got denied that I was unaware 6 of. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And do you have access 8 to -- When you make those referrals, do you have access 9 to their whole file, the inmate's whole file? 10 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 11 MR. McFARLAND: You do? Okay. When 12 you're thinking about referring somebody for 13 safekeeping or single-cell status, do you review the 14 inmate's file? 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir -- 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- we do. 18 MR. McFARLAND: So you'd know if that 19 individual was openly homosexual. 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: If he's reported it to 21 the staff, yes. 22 MR. McFARLAND: It will be in the file. 23 CAPTAIN JENKINS: It will be documented. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, sure. Chances are 25 you're going to know it anyway, general -- Could have Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 72 1 been a rumor, familiarity or -- It's not going to be a 2 big surprise to you as to who's homosexual and who's 3 not on your cell blocks. 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I could assume. You 5 know, I can't speculate -- Just 'cause he walks a 6 little funny, I can't assume he's homosexual. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Yet, you talk to your 8 officers, though. 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: There again, it's just 10 their speculation. I mean, I don't -- 11 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: It would be my opinion. 13 MR. McFARLAND: So -- Yeah. So if they 14 didn't volunteer that information, it would just be 15 speculation on your part as to who's -- who is 16 homosexual and who's not. 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Right. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So, just so I 19 understand your testimony, Captain Jenkins, the -- you 20 refer inmates that you thought needed single cells or 21 other safekeeping in the past at Estelle. Is that 22 right? 23 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: And you -- Has there been 25 any -- and I'm sorry. You probably just answered this, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 73 1 but there have been occasions when you thought that 2 they needed safekeeping but they didn't get it. Is 3 that right? 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And you -- Your 6 opinion about their needing safekeeping was based on 7 your -- in part on your review at having access and 8 having reviewed their jacket, their inmate file. Is 9 that right? 10 CAPTAIN JENKINS: That's right. 11 MR. McFARLAND: All right. 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I mean, all I can do is 13 recommend it. I can't -- 14 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. The buck stops 15 with somebody else. 16 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Right. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Gotcha. Have you ever 18 heard that an inmate, whether you referred them or not, 19 was denied safekeeping because you ran out of 20 safekeeping beds? There wasn't a safekeeping bed 21 available for that inmate that he was otherwise 22 apparently eligible for it, but it just didn't have 23 enough room at Estelle? 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Not to my knowledge, 25 no. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 74 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. You got about 126 2 beds in safekeeping, don't you? 3 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Sixty-three cells. 5 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I mean, that shouldn't 6 be a reason. I mean, if he's been -- If State 7 Classification sends word back saying, "Yes. Go ahead 8 and place him for safekeeping," if we don't have the 9 beds, we will ship him to a facility that has an open 10 bed to facilitate that individual. 11 MS. ELLIS: Captains, how do inmates 12 communicate with their families? 13 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Through letters and 14 visitation. 15 MS. ELLIS: How often? How often do -- 16 CAPTAIN DAWSON: They can write letters 17 every day and then they got weekend visitation. It 18 just depends on their custody status on how many times 19 a month that they can see. 20 MS. ELLIS: Yes? 21 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Sometimes they also get 22 phone calls, too. 23 MS. ELLIS: Phone calls. So they have 24 opportunity to communicate with their relatives. In 25 your experience, how many investigations may have been Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 75 1 initiated through a parental or family concerns? 2 Families get back to you and say, "My offender is 3 having difficulty. Something's happened. I'm 4 concerned and worried"? 5 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I've done three to four 6 of those. 7 MS. ELLIS: Of those? 8 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, ma'am. 9 MS. ELLIS: Talk about that real quick. 10 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Okay. 11 MS. ELLIS: Talk about that. 12 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Basically what it is, 13 that, you know, the warden receives a letter from a -- 14 concern from a family member stating that her son or 15 husband didn't receive a towel or missing property or 16 is being harassed by an officer, lead investigator. 17 Basically what we'll do is -- What I do is, we have a 18 form that we have to fill out that goes to the major, 19 the warden and to the OIG because it reveals the -- It 20 may be something that needs to be forwarded to the OIG. 21 I'll pull the offender in and find out what his 22 allegations are and see if it was a violation, or if it 23 was something they should have or some property that he 24 should have received. I'll do a synopsis by that. 25 I'll talk to the officer and find out what he has to Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 76 1 say, get them to write a statement. And if there's any 2 witnesses, you know, offender or additional staff, I'll 3 get them to write a statement that I can come to a 4 conclusion that I can substantiate or not substantiate 5 this offender's claim, which I have substantiated like 6 a radio being broke. The officer says, "Yeah. I was 7 doing a cell search and it fell. I should have 8 reported it." We replaced his radio. And then at that 9 point in time, I'll sign off on it, then a copy goes to 10 the major and a copy goes to the Office of the 11 Inspector General for review. And, also, it gets sent 12 back to the Ombudsman Office, I guess, the final 13 disposition to the family member. 14 MS. ELLIS: Let me ask you about the 15 victim representative. Have you ever called a 16 representative of an offender for assistance? You 17 have? 18 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I have. 19 MS. ELLIS: Tell me a little bit about 20 that. 21 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Basically the victim 22 representatives are there to talk to the offender, 23 basically -- trying to find the word -- consult him, 24 so -- I mean, I have called my chaplain before and they 25 have showed up and the inmate did request to have one Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 77 1 there and, basically, the chaplain was there during the 2 whole time of the rape kit being -- or the sexual 3 assault kit being conducted. 4 MS. ELLIS: To your knowledge, are the 5 chaplains also trained regarding Safe Prisons' concept? 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, ma'am. 7 MR. McFARLAND: What's the proper shower 8 escort procedure, Warden Wheat? 9 WARDEN WHEAT: For where? 10 MR. McFARLAND: For -- Why don't we start 11 with Coffield, in your general population? 12 WARDEN WHEAT: They come out of their 13 cells and go out of the cell block and go down the hall 14 to the shower. There's not really a escort, per se. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. I'm looking at a 16 document that y'all produced. It's out of the Allred 17 Unit, so I realize you -- it doesn't apply to you, but 18 it talks about -- It's a grievance and I won't mention 19 names, but it talks about the grievance, as submitted 20 by Offender So-and-So, alleges, "I did not follow 21 proper shower escort procedures." Is that something I 22 need to ask the warden at Allred, or is there -- Any of 23 you aware of any kind of proper shower escort 24 procedures? 25 WARDEN WHEAT: You have escort procedure Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 78 1 for administrative segregation housing areas. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Ah, okay. But not in the 3 general population. 4 WARDEN WHEAT: No. 5 MR. McFARLAND: You don't escort folks to 6 the showers. 7 WARDEN WHEAT: No, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: They can -- Can they go 9 any time they want? 10 WARDEN WHEAT: No, sir. 11 MR. McFARLAND: When can they go at 12 Estelle? What's -- 13 WARDEN WHEAT: According to the building 14 schedule, they'll go when they have shower time for 15 that area or when they -- or get off of work. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, when was 17 shower time at Estelle in '06? 18 WARDEN WHEAT: The building schedule -- 19 The population has shower times in the mornings, then 20 you have your people getting off work. They go to the 21 shower. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So at any one 23 time, how many inmates from a single-cell block can go 24 to a shower? 25 WARDEN WHEAT: They'll be called in the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 79 1 showers out from the wings and they'll have an officer 2 in the shower monitoring it and they will send them 3 down as they clear wings out. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So the answer to 5 my question, how many are in a wing that can go down to 6 the shower at one time? 7 WARDEN WHEAT: They probably send shots 8 of twenty-five at a time and down the hallway. They 9 would monitor that. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 11 WARDEN WHEAT: You know, there would be 12 more than twenty-five in the showers, but that's -- 13 MR. McFARLAND: They'd go in blocks of 14 twenty-five. And how many folks might be in a shower 15 at one time during the first shift at Estelle in 2006? 16 WARDEN WHEAT: I couldn't say because 17 there's two different showers and there's two different 18 areas and one shower. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, let's start 20 with the first one, then, not the one that's next to 21 the laundry room. 22 WARDEN WHEAT: Okay. There could 23 probably be anywhere from fifty to a hundred people in 24 there. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And all of them Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 80 1 are visible from -- by a correctional officer? 2 WARDEN WHEAT: According to the staffing 3 in there, they can open up that back shower. You 4 should have one back in the back and one in the front. 5 MR. McFARLAND: A correctional officer 6 would be standing in the back of the showers? 7 WARDEN WHEAT: The laundry staff would be 8 in there in that box room seeing that. 9 MR. McFARLAND: What kind of staff is 10 that? I'm sorry. 11 WARDEN WHEAT: It's the laundry 12 assisting staff and security staff. 13 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I'd like to add to that 14 real quick, not to interrupt, but we have a security 15 staff that's on the shower floor. We have a necessity 16 staff -- security staff that's in the box with the 17 workers that pass out the clothes and we have another 18 security staff right by the door, so you actually got 19 three security staff in the shower area while they 20 shower. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Have you ever seen any 22 sexual activity in the shower? 23 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Me personally, no, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: You ever had any of your 25 officers report sexual activity among inmates at Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 81 1 Estelle? 2 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Masturbation. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Okay. And is 4 that -- 5 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Inmate-on-inmate, yeah. 6 It's an infraction. It's still -- They'll receive a 7 disciplinary for sexual misconduct. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Any incidence 9 you've heard of, anal penetration in the shower, 10 somebody drop their soap? 11 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Me personally, no. 12 MR. McFARLAND: No, I'm asking. Have you 13 ever had reports of that? 14 CAPTAIN JENKINS: That's what I said. 15 No, I haven't. No. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. How about you, 17 Warden Wheat, when you were at Estelle? 18 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I don't recall any 19 specifics. 20 MR. McFARLAND: You don't recall an 21 instance whether you've ever heard of an anal 22 penetration in the shower when you were at Estelle? 23 WARDEN WHEAT: I'm trying to remember one 24 and I -- 25 MR. McFARLAND: Well, if it happened, it Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 82 1 happened. 2 WARDEN WHEAT: I can't say it didn't. I 3 don't remember one. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Captain Dawson? 5 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: At Darrington? 7 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: There's another document, 9 a grievance dated July 17, 2006, from an officer. And 10 I'm not going into the particulars of this one, but he 11 makes an interesting statement. He says, "I'm 12 requesting a polygraph exam" -- just give you a 13 background. 14 The disciplinary action was given in 15 July, 2006, on a -- what he says is a false allegation 16 of using profane or abusive language and he says in his 17 grievance, "I'm requesting a polygraph examination, but 18 not through TDCJ I.D. because we all know how that 19 works. I request a polygraph through a selected 20 private investigator so I know my results will be 21 accurate." 22 You share that opinion with this 23 anonymous officer that a polygraph that might be 24 administered at the Estelle Unit, or any unit that 25 you've been a part of, is less than accurate? Let's Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 83 1 start with you, Captain Jenkins. Do you have your 2 doubts about the accuracy of the polygraph at Estelle? 3 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, sir. I'm against 4 it for the polygraph, period, but not just -- I mean, I 5 don't have -- No. 6 MR. McFARLAND: So you don't think 7 polygraphs are all that accurate at all. 8 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: So there's not something 10 particularly inaccurate about the one at Estelle. 11 You're just questioning -- 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Right. 13 MR. McFARLAND: You're not alone in that. 14 And, Captain Dawson? 15 CAPTAIN CAPTAIN DAWSON: I'm good with 16 polygraphs. 17 MR. McFARLAND: You're good with 18 polygraphs. And, Warden Wheat, is there -- When you 19 were at Estelle, was there an opinion that if you had a 20 grievance, you really wouldn't -- you'd want to get a 21 private investigator to administer the polygraph 22 because the one that you'd get at Estelle is less than 23 accurate? 24 WARDEN WHEAT: I never had that opinion. 25 I mean, the person doing the polygraphing is part of Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 84 1 the Office of the Inspector General, or they would send 2 someone in there to do that. It wasn't part of the 3 day-to-day staff at Estelle. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Is there a polygraph at 5 Estelle? 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: (Witness nodding head.) 7 CAPTAIN DAWSON: (Witness nodding head.) 8 WARDEN WHEAT: They conduct them. I 9 don't know if they have a polygraph examiner there. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Gotcha. Now, in the 11 course of your shifts, are you provided with a list of 12 potential predators or victims? We talked about folks 13 that you thought might be victims or predators and 14 referred them on. Were you provided a list of 15 potential predators or victims on your unit -- in your 16 unit? 17 CAPTAIN DAWSON: It's located at our Safe 18 Prisons' office. We do have access to it. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. You have access to 20 it. When's the last time, Captain Jenkins, you had 21 occasion to review that list? 22 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Last Wednesday. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 24 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I mean, I haven't been 25 back to work on shift since last Wednesday, so I can Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 85 1 honestly say last Wednesday. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Day before yesterday? 3 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No. 4 MR. McFARLAND: A week ago. 5 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yeah. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Was that in preparation 7 for this? 8 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, sir. Huh-uh. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, okay. So how often 10 do you generally consult that list of predators and 11 victims? 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I try to do it at least 13 once a week -- 14 MR. McFARLAND: Great. 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- get with the Safe 16 Prisons officer. 17 MR. McFARLAND: And that's who at 18 Estelle? 19 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Officer Hernandez. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Captain Dawson, do 21 you have occasion, on your shift, to review that list? 22 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir, but I normally 23 wait after the UIT meeting and I talk with 24 Mr. Hernandez to see if anything's changed, there 25 anything we need to look at, high-profile areas. But Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 86 1 as far as, you know, weekly looking at the predators 2 list, no, sir. I just look for high-impact areas, you 3 know. 4 MR. McFARLAND: And what's the UIT, Unit 5 Investigation Team? 6 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And what impact -- input 8 would they have on that list? 9 CAPTAIN DAWSON: What I look at is the 10 LIDs, you know, the OPIs, where we're having offender 11 fights. 12 MR. McFARLAND: What's an "LID"? I'm 13 sorry. 14 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Offender protection. 15 He's requesting that his life's in danger, so we do a 16 life endangerment investigation, and we -- On the 17 mapping system, you know, it's on there. I mainly look 18 at that so I can put out to my staff, "Hey, you know, 19 make sure that you're really paying attention. We've 20 had a lot of fights here. You know, inmates are 21 stating things and, you know, we need to keep our eyes 22 open." 23 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, I'm not -- 24 Okay. I'm not talking about the mapping and I'm not 25 talking about fights. I'm talking about lists that the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 87 1 Unit Safe Prison Program coordinator is supposed to 2 provide to key security staff, a list of potential 3 predators or victims. 4 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 5 MR. McFARLAND: And you said you have 6 access to that list. How often do you consult it? 7 CAPTAIN DAWSON: About once a month after 8 the -- 9 MR. McFARLAND: Once a month? 10 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And, Warden Wheat, 12 when you were at Estelle, did you have access to that 13 list? 14 WARDEN WHEAT: We had identified 15 predators and pretty much monitored them very closely. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. How often would 17 you have -- would you look at that list? 18 WARDEN WHEAT: I'd have discussions with 19 Mr. Alvarez frequently; pretty well monitored the 20 population. I can't give a specific time and how 21 often. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Once a year? 23 WARDEN WHEAT: More often than that, yes, 24 sir. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Once a week? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 88 1 WARDEN WHEAT: Sometimes, yes, sir. 2 MR. McFARLAND: If I told you we talked 3 about inmate-on-inmate sexual activity and laundry and 4 showers and so forth, if I told you that last night a 5 member of your staff had a sexual encounter with an 6 inmate and I didn't tell you where, where are the risky 7 areas in Estelle? Where would you first of all look? 8 I'll start with Warden Wheat. 9 WARDEN WHEAT: It's a really -- It'd be 10 the whole facility. I'll just have to investigate it 11 and see. 12 MR. McFARLAND: So you wouldn't know 13 where to turn. You wouldn't -- There are no safe 14 zones? There are no more risky places? 15 WARDEN WHEAT: It could be anywhere. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Captains? 17 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Cell block, in their 18 cells, the broom closets, the closet that you're 19 talking about because the officer -- You can get the 20 key to that, so they, you know, they can lock 21 themselves in there; the restrooms, employee restrooms. 22 You know, on my shift, I guess they could hide 23 underneath the windows of the dayrooms, you know. As 24 far as the movement of my staff, you know, we don't 25 have a lot of movement, so I pretty much know where my Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 89 1 staff is, but I would say that would be the key areas 2 right there, you know, work areas. You know, the ones 3 that are working with -- janitors. 4 MR. McFARLAND: How about you, Captain 5 Jenkins? Where would you want to look? Where are the 6 safe places and the risky places? 7 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I agree it'd -- it 8 would be anywhere in the main building because you said 9 at night, so an officer can get a key to -- I wouldn't 10 say everywhere they could find a spot, so it would be 11 anywhere in the prison. 12 MR. McFARLAND: You familiar with the 13 Safe Prison Program Offender Orientation video? Have 14 you ever seen that? 15 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir. 16 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, sir, I have not. 17 MR. McFARLAND: In Part 8 of the 18 orientation for all the -- I guess all your new 19 offenders in all the units, it encourages the offenders 20 to position themselves in, quote, safe zones where you 21 can see a staff member and a staff member can see you 22 at all times. Areas where sexual assaults are more 23 likely to occur are showers, toilets, cells, television 24 rooms, libraries, laundry room, work sites, stairwells, 25 vaults, commissaries, kitchens. Y'all been given any Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 90 1 training on safe zones for -- as it relates to sexual 2 assault or has that not come up in your training? 3 CAPTAIN DAWSON: It probably has. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Probably has? How often 5 do you get in-service training on sexual assault? Is 6 this an annual -- 7 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Annual. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And how long is 9 it, Captain Jenkins? 10 CAPTAIN JENKINS: The class itself or the 11 annual training? The annual training is a forty-hour 12 class of school room -- 13 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 14 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- where it's all a 15 spectrum of all sorts of things. I believe the Safe 16 Prison part is two to four hours long -- or I can't 17 really remember specifics, but it's a good block. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 19 CAPTAIN DAWSON: It goes over how to 20 identify, you know, predators and victims and how to 21 investigate an LID. 22 MR. McFARLAND: And does it include 23 investigations where to particularly look where there 24 are high-risk areas for inmate-on-inmate or 25 staff-on-inmate sexual activity? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 91 1 CAPTAIN DAWSON: When we're doing the 2 investigation, we're going to ask the offender, "Hey, 3 where did you get assaulted at?" 4 MR. McFARLAND: No. I'm talking about 5 the training. 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir, it does. 7 MR. McFARLAND: It talks about where to 8 look? 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. It gives 10 some examples. 11 MR. McFARLAND: And, Warden Wheat, do you 12 show that offender orientation video at Coffield? 13 WARDEN WHEAT: I don't know. The 14 offender orientation video? 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 16 WARDEN WHEAT: I would figure that would 17 come in when they arrive at a reception facility. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Intake center? 19 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 20 MR. McFARLAND: So the answer's "no." 21 When they get to Coffield, they don't see some other -- 22 WARDEN WHEAT: I can't answer that for 23 certain. 24 MS. ELLIS: I just wanted to -- I think 25 Captain Jenkins had to talk a little bit about how Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 92 1 rumors about -- in an institution. Are there rumor 2 mill among offenders, word gets around, they all kind 3 of hear stories, share stories, have perceptions about 4 staff? 5 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, ma'am. 6 MS. ELLIS: Are you aware of any 7 perceptions that they may have about female officers, 8 in general? 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: As to what? I'm trying 10 to understand what you're -- 11 MS. ELLIS: In general, that they may 12 have some perceptions about female officers, some 13 attitudes about them, some ways that they view them as 14 opposed to the way they may view a male officer. 15 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I'm sure there's all 16 sorts of perceptions about female staff and male staff. 17 MS. ELLIS: But I'm interested in any 18 that you may be aware of regarding female officers, in 19 your many years of experience. 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Well, I mean, there's 21 rumors that female officers shouldn't be allowed in 22 male penitentiaries; statements like that. I mean, I'm 23 trying to understand what you're specifically asking 24 me. 25 MS. ELLIS: I'm asking you to just talk Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 93 1 about what some of those rumors are or some of those 2 perceptions are that you may be aware of as someone who 3 spends a great deal of time in your job performance. 4 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Some -- I've heard some 5 rumors, "Oh, this officer here is Robocop. She sweats 6 everything." "This officer here is" -- "She's firm and 7 consistent," you know, stuff like that. I can't really 8 point out any individual thing, but it's stuff like 9 that I've heard. 10 MS. ELLIS: But the rumors do get out? 11 There are rumors? 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, ma'am. I'm sorry. 13 MS. ELLIS: Okay. Thank you. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Just a couple more 15 questions. Y'all familiar with the Unit Classification 16 Procedure No. 10.01, January 2007? It's a two-page 17 document and the subject is, "Offender Protection 18 Investigation Form Instructions." It's how to fill out 19 an SPP-02. I know you got lots of forms, so it's -- 20 but have you ever got any training or seen how to fill 21 out a SPP-02? 22 CAPTAIN DAWSON: The OPI, yes, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: The OPI, yeah. 24 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. They do it at 25 in-service. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 94 1 MR. McFARLAND: During the in-service. 2 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Wheat, you 4 familiar with OPI form? 5 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: On the second page, it 7 says, "If at any time during this process the offender 8 decides to rescind his request for protection" -- and 9 if you want to get the document, I'll -- 10 WARDEN WHEAT: No, go ahead. 11 MR. McFARLAND: I'll just read it. "Or 12 no longer feels his life is in danger, the offender may 13 sign the Offender Waiver Statement portion of the OPI 14 form. After this is signed by the offender, the major 15 will review the investigation to determine if it stops 16 there or it should continue on to UCC for a decision." 17 Now, Warden Wheat, you were a major at Estelle. Is 18 that right? 19 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 20 MR. McFARLAND: So did you ever review an 21 investigation to determine if it stops because an 22 offender signed a waiver on the OPI form or whether it 23 should continue? 24 WARDEN WHEAT: I've signed off when the 25 offender signs the waiver. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 95 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Okay. Did you 2 understand that you had the option of letting it 3 continue on to the UCC? Just because the offender 4 signed the waiver, it didn't mean that it couldn't be 5 continued to be looked at by the UCC. 6 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: You understood that was 8 an option. 9 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 10 MR. McFARLAND: So is -- Then the next 11 sentence says, "The major will sign off on the waiver 12 statement portion of the SPP-02 as the staff witness." 13 So, can -- When you were a major at Estelle, could you 14 stop an investigation if the offender signed the 15 waiver? 16 WARDEN WHEAT: If the offender signed the 17 waiver? 18 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 19 WARDEN WHEAT: Normally that was 20 reflected as being that the situation was resolved. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So the answer to 22 my question is "yes." You could stop an investigation 23 if the offender signed a waiver. 24 WARDEN WHEAT: Investigation would be 25 complete and forwarded to the UCC. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 96 1 MR. McFARLAND: No. I guess I'm confused 2 now. You got an OPI -- 3 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: -- and the investigation 5 is underway. It is not complete. 6 WARDEN WHEAT: Okay. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And suddenly the offender 8 signs the waiver portion of the SPP-02. You could, by 9 signing as the staff witness, that SPP-02, stop the 10 investigation at that point. Is that correct? 11 WARDEN WHEAT: It could. It could be. 12 Yes, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And did you ever 14 do that? 15 WARDEN WHEAT: I don't recall any 16 specific incident where I did. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Do you ever recall 18 signing SPP-02 during your years at Estelle? 19 WARDEN WHEAT: I don't recall any 20 specific instance. I've processed several. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So you have signed 22 one. 23 WARDEN WHEAT: Oh, sure. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Signed a lot of 25 them. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 97 1 WARDEN WHEAT: Probably. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Probably. Give a lot of 3 OPIs at Estelle? I mean, dozens in the course of a 4 year? 5 WARDEN WHEAT: I don't know what the 6 numbers are. I know that we spend a lot of time with 7 them. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. One a month? 9 WARDEN WHEAT: No. There's more than 10 that. 11 MR. McFARLAND: More than that. All 12 right. So more than a dozen a year. 13 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And as major at 15 Estelle, you were one of several majors who could sign 16 off on the SPP-02. Is that right? 17 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 18 MR. McFARLAND: And that -- If you did 19 and the offender signed a waiver, that was the end of 20 the investigation. Is that correct? 21 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Captains, have you seen 23 an SPP-02 at Estelle? 24 CAPTAIN DAWSON: That's the 25 investigation? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 98 1 MR. McFARLAND: The OPI. 2 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And have you seen 4 an offender -- You know, has an offender ever signed 5 one of those -- the waiver portion of one of those? 6 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 7 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: What's your understanding 9 of what happens after that? 10 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Well, we'll turn them in 11 to the LID book. The major receives it the next day 12 and signs off on it and it still goes to UCC. 13 MR. McFARLAND: It still goes to UCC. 14 What happens, in your understanding, at UCC? 15 CAPTAIN DAWSON: I can't speak for that. 16 I don't know. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Captain Jenkins, did you 18 ever hear about what happens to -- 19 CAPTAIN JENKINS: The offender states 20 that -- For example, the offender files and wants a 21 cell change because him and his cellie don't get along. 22 He wants to file a life endangerment. We give him a 23 different cell option and move him and he comes back 24 and says, "Well, I'm going to go ahead and sign the 25 waiver today 'cause my life endangerment claim is Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 99 1 over," so, therefore, the offender will sign it. He'll 2 go to the UCC. The major and the committee will ask 3 him, "Are you sure this is" -- you know, "Will this 4 solve your claim?" If the offender says "yes," the 5 major sign off on it and it'll still go in his file and 6 the offender will -- His allegation will be sustained 7 or solved. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And if pressure was 9 brought to bear on the offender to sign the waiver, 10 then that would be -- the major could end the 11 investigation. Is that correct? 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: If there was -- What do 13 you mean? If the investigating official pressured that 14 offender to sign a waiver? 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 16 CAPTAIN JENKINS: That's why he's 17 brought -- always brought to UCC, because if that's the 18 case, that's when the major could be notified by the 19 offender that he was forced. 20 MR. McFARLAND: So there's a fast stop 21 there. 22 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Yes, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Great. Okay. So for 24 something to be covered up like a sexual assault, when 25 it's gotten to the point of an OPI, that offender would Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 100 1 have to be -- would have to be pressured to sign the 2 OPI and would have to -- You know, there'd have to be 3 some collusion among the whole UCC in order to put a 4 kibosh on the investigation. Is that right? 5 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Also, medical and OIG 6 because we notify OIG also. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So there's some 8 layers there that -- 9 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Great. Is that the way 11 it works in Coffield, Mr. Wheat? 12 WARDEN WHEAT: There's a waiver signed, 13 it's signed in front of the major at the Unit 14 Classification Committee. They process it and the 15 offender will come to UCC, and if he's waiving off, 16 it'll be signed off by a major. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Who's on the UCC? 18 WARDEN WHEAT: Be your major, assistant 19 warden, treatment staff, different Department heads. 20 MR. McFARLAND: How about any security 21 staff? 22 WARDEN WHEAT: Can be; security captain. 23 MR. McFARLAND: They have to be 24 lieutenant rank or above. Is that right? 25 WARDEN WHEAT: Yes, sir. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 101 1 MR. McFARLAND: Captains, have you ever 2 served on the UCC -- 3 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: -- at any unit? 5 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: At which, Darrington? 7 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: About when? 9 CAPTAIN DAWSON: (Inaudible.) 10 MR. McFARLAND: How about Estelle? 11 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Are you on the UCC now? 13 CAPTAIN DAWSON: No. Last week, I was 14 working 8:00 to 5:00 because the ACA and I said -- You 15 know, to progress my career, you know, there's things I 16 need to learn how to do, so I sat down and we did an 17 01, which is in-processing a new inmate and 18 disciplinary. 19 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry. Can you move 20 the -- I didn't hear the last part. 21 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. I did one 22 last week because I had to work 8:00 to 5:00. I was 23 working with the ACA and -- to learn the concept of 24 what UCC does. 25 MR. McFARLAND: I see. When you say Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 102 1 you're going through ACC, is that the accreditation 2 process? 3 CAPTAIN DAWSON: Yes, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Is Estelle being 5 accredited right now? 6 CAPTAIN DAWSON: We were accredited last 7 week. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Last week. Okay. And, 9 Captain Jenkins, you served on the UCC? 10 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Little bit. I mean, 11 due to my hours, the majority of the UCC ran between 12 8:00 and 5:00 -- 13 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. 14 CAPTAIN JENKINS: -- so -- I mean, I sit 15 on it sometimes. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 17 MS. ELLIS: Captain Jenkins, back to the 18 rumors and perceptions. Have you ever heard anything 19 regarding a rumor or a perception among offenders that 20 a report of sexual assault by a homosexual would be 21 considered laughable? 22 CAPTAIN JENKINS: What, if a homosexual 23 offender come out and raped another offender? 24 MS. ELLIS: No. That are reported by a 25 homosexual offender that he was raped would be Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 103 1 considered laughable and not taken seriously by the 2 staff at Estelle? 3 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, not by the staff at 4 Estelle. No. 5 MS. ELLIS: Let me ask you about another 6 possible rumor. Have you ever heard a rumor that a 7 female officer -- some female officers actually take 8 jobs as officers because they're looking for a man? 9 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I've heard it before, 10 yes. 11 MS. ELLIS: Have you? Has there been 12 some discussion around that? What was your reaction? 13 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No, just rumors, you 14 know, statements. 15 MS. ELLIS: What do you -- What have you 16 heard from female officers about those kinds of rumors? 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Can't think of any 18 specifics, just heard it mentioned once or twice, you 19 know, that this officer supposedly come over here to 20 find a husband. We've -- If I remember correctly, we 21 looked into the allegation of that comment and couldn't 22 find any evidence that that officer was doing anything 23 wrong, so it was just a -- I don't know if it was just 24 a hateful remark or if it was just a jealous remark. 25 MS. ELLIS: So you have no explanation as Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 104 1 to why those kinds of remarks would be made in general 2 about female officers? 3 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Not all female 4 officers, no; maybe one or two from the ones I've 5 heard, you know. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Do you agree with that 7 sentiment? Do you think that some of the officers -- 8 female officers, in your experience, are looking for a 9 M-R-S degree? 10 CAPTAIN JENKINS: What is a M-R-S degree? 11 MR. McFARLAND: Looking for a husband. 12 CAPTAIN JENKINS: I'm sure it happens, 13 yes. 14 MS. ELLIS: Are you aware of any 15 relationships that may have formed between female 16 officers and offenders? 17 CAPTAIN JENKINS: Am I aware? 18 MS. ELLIS: Aware of any relationships, 19 any lasting relationships? 20 CAPTAIN JENKINS: No. And -- No. 21 Huh-uh. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, thank you 23 very much, Captain Jenkins, Captain Dawson, Warden 24 Wheat, and we'll take a ten-minute break and start 25 again at 11:00 -- say 11:20 with the next panel. Thank Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 105 1 you. 2 (Break taken.) 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. If y'all would 4 raise your right hand, we'll administer the oath. 5 (Witnesses complying.) 6 MR. McFARLAND: Do you solemnly swear or 7 affirm that the testimony you're about to give to the 8 Panel will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing 9 but the truth, so help you God? 10 MR. MORIARTY: I do. 11 MS. DeBOTTIS: I do. 12 MS. BALLARD: I do. 13 MS. WHITE: I do. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Mr. Moriarty was 15 kind enough to introduce me to several of his staff who 16 are assigned to the Estelle Unit, and we don't have 17 enough chairs, so now that you're sworn, any time that 18 you have any -- You know, one of you can sit there and 19 any time you have some information you want to 20 volunteer, just raise your hand and come on forward and 21 we'll get you on the record. We appreciate your 22 flexibility. Okay. If each of you could just identify 23 yourselves and what you do and how long you've been 24 doing it. Why don't we start with you, Ms. Ballard? 25 MS. BALLARD: My name's Debbie Ballard. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 106 1 I'm the chief of classification at the Estelle Unit. 2 I've been chief for about the last -- well, since 3 August. I got promoted to chief, but I've been with 4 TDCJ for twenty years. 5 MR. McFARLAND: That was August of '07. 6 MS. BALLARD: Yes. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And who was the chief of 8 classification before? 9 MS. BALLARD: Silvia Peyosta. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Is she still there or 11 not? 12 MS. BALLARD: No, sir. She's retired. 13 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Ms. White? 14 MS. WHITE: I'm Jonie White, currently 15 the chairman of classification and records. I've been 16 with the state approximately nineteen years. I began 17 with the state as a case manager and from there 18 sociology on to administrative assistant to the 19 chairman, the State Classification Committee member, 20 vice chairman and my current position for approximately 21 eight months. 22 MR. McFARLAND: And on the SCC -- 23 MS. WHITE: I've been the chairman for 24 eight months. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Chair. And how long have Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 107 1 you been on the SCC? 2 MS. WHITE: I was in the SCC room as a 3 committee member for approximately six years, two years 4 as the vice chairman. 5 MR. McFARLAND: And, Ms. Ballard, forgive 6 me. How long have you been at the Department? 7 MS. BALLARD: Twenty years. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Mr. Moriarty? 9 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. My name's John 10 Moriarty. I'm the Inspector General for the Texas 11 Department of Criminal Justice. I've been the 12 Inspector General, appointed by the Board of Criminal 13 Justice, since May of 2001. 14 MR. McFARLAND: And how long have you 15 been with the Department, sir? 16 MR. MORIARTY: I've been with the 17 Internal Affairs Division and then later named as the 18 Inspector General's office for nineteen years. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Ms. DeBottis? 20 MS. DeBOTTIS: My name is Gina DeBottis. 21 I'm the Executive Director of the Special Prosecution 22 Unit. I've been in my current position for a little 23 over eight years, but I've been employed as a 24 prosecutor with the Agency for fifteen and a half 25 years. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 108 1 MR. McFARLAND: Great, great. Thank you. 2 Mr. Yosco? 3 MR. YOSCO: Yes, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Can you just speak -- I 5 don't think that -- That one got fried yesterday, so -- 6 just your name and title and how long you've been doing 7 it. 8 MR. YOSCO: Brian Yosco. I'm with the 9 Inspector General's office. I've been with OIG for 10 approximately three years, currently assigned to the 11 Gulf Coast Task Force. I was doing the unit 12 investigations for approximately two and a half years. 13 MR. McFARLAND: That's the Estelle Unit? 14 MR. YOSCO: I was on the Estelle Unit for 15 about a year and a half. I've been gone from there for 16 about a year. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So during '06, you 18 were -- 19 MR. YOSCO: Yes, sir. 20 MR. McFARLAND: -- assigned? 21 MR. YOSCO: Yes, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And then, 23 Mr. Cole. 24 MR. COLE: My name is Mark Cole. I'm an 25 investigator with the Inspector General's office. I Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 109 1 have worked with the Texas Department of Criminal 2 Justice for a little over twenty years. I have been an 3 investigator with the Office of Inspector General for a 4 little over fourteen years of that. 5 MR. McFARLAND: So you've been around. 6 MR. COLE: Yes, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And when have you 8 been -- How long have you been assigned to the Estelle 9 Unit? 10 MR. COLE: I am currently assigned to the 11 Eastham Unit. I was assigned to the Estelle Unit for 12 approximately two, two and a half years. 13 MR. McFARLAND: That included '06? 14 MR. COLE: Yes. 15 MR. McFARLAND: And have either of you, 16 Mr. Yosco or Mr. Cole, been assigned to any of the 17 other four units, Allred, Mountain View, Coffield or -- 18 Coffield and -- what's the -- Clements? 19 MR. YOSCO: No, sir. 20 MR. COLE: No, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Neither one of you? 22 MR. YOSCO: No, sir. 23 MR. COLE: No, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you. Let me -- I 25 discussed with Mr. Moriarty and Ms. DeBottis the -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 110 1 some of the documents that they were kind enough to 2 produce, and there's a chart that talks about case 3 information during calendar 2006, and I just wanted to 4 make sure I understand. And, I believe, Mr. Moriarty, 5 you're the best person to speak to that? 6 MR. MORIARTY: Yes, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So there are 8 twenty-four incidents -- there are about twenty-seven 9 lines -- but some of them relate to the same -- have 10 the same case number, so just so I understand, under 11 "Sex," that's the sex of the victim? 12 MR. MORIARTY: Now, the document you're 13 referring to, it says "Staff-on-Inmate Cases"? 14 MR. McFARLAND: It's not labeled other 15 than your "Office of the Inspector General, 16 Investigations Department, January 1, 2006 through 17 December 31, 2006." 18 MR. MORIARTY: And it -- "Suspects and 19 Outcomes"? 20 MR. McFARLAND: No, no. This is the 21 other one that we looked at. It has less information 22 than that one. 23 MS. DeBOTTIS: Is it the one that has the 24 last column about no charges or sentenced or -- 25 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, right, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 111 1 "dispositions" -- 2 MS. DeBOTTIS: Yes. 3 MR. McFARLAND: So the second column 4 under "Sex," that refers to the sex of the victim, the 5 alleged victim. Is that correct? 6 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And then under -- the 8 column under "Victim," we just use "V" instead of 9 identifying the victims for the sake of privacy. 10 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. Under 11 Texas law, we cannot disclose any victim's name. 12 MR. McFARLAND: And then under "Unit," we 13 have two additional designation of which prison -- 14 which of the five prisons that we're talking about 15 these investigations occurred. Is that right? 16 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 17 MR. McFARLAND: And four of the five are 18 referenced and I don't see -- The abbreviation for 19 Estelle is "E-2." Is that right? 20 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 21 MR. McFARLAND: So none of them, 22 evidently, occurred on this chart. There were no 23 investigations that occurred in calendar '06 at 24 Estelle. Is that correct? 25 MR. MORIARTY: There were no Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 112 1 staff-on-inmate cases at Estelle in '06 that my office 2 investigated. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And then the next 4 column is "DOI," which is the date of the incident? 5 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 6 MR. McFARLAND: The next is "DOO," and 7 that is what? 8 MR. MORIARTY: The date -- I don't know 9 what date that is. That would be the date we opened 10 the case on the allegation. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Are you sure? Is that 12 what "DOO" means? For example, the very first one, 13 which occurred at Clements, the date of the incident is 14 January 1. The date of opening, if that's what it 15 means, wasn't -- 16 MR. MORIARTY: That's what it is, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. All right. So 18 evidently this case is -- the alleged victim waited a 19 couple of months before letting y'all know. 20 MR. MORIARTY: Without pulling the case, 21 I wouldn't know what the circumstances were. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. What's a 23 PC 39.04(s)? 24 MR. MORIARTY: That's a sexual contact 25 with a person in custody. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 113 1 MR. McFARLAND: And is that a crime? 2 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. It's a felony crime 3 in Texas. 4 MR. McFARLAND: And is that a state jail 5 felony? 6 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. That carries up to 8 two years? 9 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Ms. DeBottis, has your 11 office ever successfully prosecuted a department staff 12 member under 39.04(s)? 13 MS. DeBOTTIS: Oh, yes. Yes, we have. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And have you ever 15 prosecuted -- or your office ever prosecuted 16 successfully, under that statute, a staff member at one 17 of those five institutions that we're talking about? 18 MS. DeBOTTIS: Yes. I believe we have, 19 yes. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. In 2006, were 21 there any? Did you bring any charges that are shown on 22 that chart? 23 MS. DeBOTTIS: I've never seen this chart 24 until this morning, but -- this particular document 25 until you brought it to my attention, but I'm looking Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 114 1 at this and that last column, which would be 2 "Disposition," that would indicate what my office would 3 have done with those individual cases. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. There are four 5 different initials there. "NC" means what? 6 MS. DeBOTTIS: No charges. 7 MR. McFARLAND: "PR" means? 8 MS. DeBOTTIS: Prosecution refused. 9 MR. McFARLAND: And who did the refusing? 10 MS. DeBOTTIS: That would be somebody 11 with my office. My office works in the majority of the 12 prison and we do prosecute in the counties where these 13 prisons are located. There are few counties in the 14 state where the local district attorneys handle their 15 own cases, so I couldn't speak to those. But I believe 16 for all these facilities, these would have been handled 17 by prosecutors in my office, so they would have made 18 the decision to either accept or decline charges. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And "TB" means? 20 MS. DeBOTTIS: It's an initial for "true 21 bill," which means it would have been indicted by a 22 grand jury. 23 MR. McFARLAND: And "SN"? 24 MS. DeBOTTIS: Sentenced. That the 25 defendant would have been sentenced for the crime. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 115 1 MR. McFARLAND: So my understanding 2 that -- and, Mr. Moriarty, you -- because this came out 3 of your office, you may want to respond to this, but 4 either of you, of course, can. Am I understanding this 5 document to tell us that in calendar 2006 at -- that 6 there were, at four of the five facilities -- and there 7 were twenty-four incidents of staff-on-inmate 8 complaints or allegations -- that were disposed of 9 through the OIG office in some manner? Is that -- 10 MR. MORIARTY: Yeah. The -- There were 11 twenty-four criminal investigations open. We may have 12 had other preliminary investigations that did not 13 result in the elements of the offense being met when 14 that preliminary investigation's being done. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 16 MR. MORIARTY: So this -- You know, 17 there's a step below this, by our office, where there's 18 a preliminary investigation, and then if the elements 19 of the criminal offense are present, then a criminal -- 20 criminal investigation is open. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Who makes that 22 preliminary investigation? 23 MR. MORIARTY: The investigator on the 24 unit. 25 MR. McFARLAND: That'd be someone like Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 116 1 Mr. Cole or Mr. Yosco. 2 MR. MORIARTY: Right. But there may be 3 multiple investigators on a unit, not necessarily the 4 same investigator will do the preliminary that does the 5 full-blown investigation, but quite often, yes. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. All right. We'll 7 come back to that. And so am I correct, then, in my 8 understanding of this chart that there were twenty-four 9 incidents that went beyond the preliminary 10 investigation to the point of actually opening a 11 criminal investigation at four of these institutions 12 during calendar '06? 13 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And of those 15 twenty-four at Allred, Clements, Coffield or Mountain 16 View, we had indictments in one -- two of them. Is 17 that correct? 18 MR. MORIARTY: No. That's not correct. 19 MS. DeBOTTIS: I believe there's three. 20 MR. MORIARTY: There's three indictments 21 that I can see. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. The first two have 23 the same case number. 24 MR. MORIARTY: But it'd be two different 25 incidents, though; same suspect more than likely with Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 117 1 two separate date of occurrences. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Well, they're the same 3 DOIs on your chart. 4 MR. MORIARTY: Okay. Well, may have been 5 on the same day. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Opened on the same day, 7 same statute, same disposition date? 8 MR. MORIARTY: But multiple counts. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. All right. So one 10 individual was indicted on multiple counts in that 11 incident and there was a second incident that resulted 12 in the indictment. 13 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And, Ms. DeBottis, 15 this chart would indicate, then, that your office 16 refused to bring -- to prosecute in seven cases? 17 MS. DeBOTTIS: I believe that's correct. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And tell me how 19 that decision is made. 20 MS. DeBOTTIS: What we do with -- What 21 each individual prosecutor does when they receive a 22 case, first of all, we look at it to determine whether 23 the initial elements of the offense are met, whether 24 the specific criteria that match up to the Texas 25 statute, whether it's improper sexual activity with a Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 118 1 person in custody or sexual assault, whether they're 2 met. The next thing we do look at is to see -- It's a 3 two-step process -- to see if we have sufficient 4 information to merit a grand jury indictment, which 5 means, "Do we have enough probable cause to seek an 6 indictment?" And then, "Do we have enough evidence to 7 warrant a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt?" 8 Several of the factors that we look at certainly would 9 be the length of time in reporting. That's a huge, 10 huge indication of whether or not we're going to be 11 able to get other information. Is there biological 12 evidence? Is there other physical evidence? 13 Those sorts of things would typically go 14 into an analysis of whether or not that case could be 15 made as a prosecutable case. So, we look at it both in 16 terms of, "Can we get an indictment," but not only can 17 we get an indictment, but "Are we going to be able to 18 get a conviction," so each prosecutor would look at 19 those cases. And based on whether there's evidence, 20 whether there's witnesses, would make a decision on 21 that basis. 22 MR. McFARLAND: And in making that 23 decision, would you expect your staff to give a lot of 24 credence to a rape kit? 25 MS. DeBOTTIS: Absolutely. If one was Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 119 1 done, absolutely. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. So as far as 3 you're concerned, having a sexual assault examination 4 is real desirable in each of these cases? 5 MS. DeBOTTIS: Absolutely, but it all 6 ties in together. The length of time in reporting the 7 assault is huge. In 2005, the legislature changed the 8 statute to allow a rape kit to be given within 9 ninety-six hours after the sexual assault, so clearly 10 if the report is made and we have a rape kit, that's 11 perfect, but a rape kit really is only -- carries as 12 much weight if the identity of the suspect is an issue. 13 If the suspect says, "Yes. I had sex with this 14 individual but it was consensual," the value of the 15 rape kit as evidence goes down, but, yes. Clearly you 16 would always want a rape kit if you can have one. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Does your office 18 make the decision about no charge and -- Well -- 19 MS. DeBOTTIS: Yes. Sometimes I think no 20 charge -- That might be we decline it before we even 21 get it, like if OIG would call us and the elements of 22 the offense aren't even there -- the elements aren't 23 met, there's no point in sending the case to us. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Moriarty? 25 MR. MORIARTY: Yeah. In some of these Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 120 1 cases, there may be no suspect identified. They might 2 not know who committed the alleged act. 3 MR. McFARLAND: I see. Have you had a 4 chance, Mr. Moriarty, to prepare for your deposition -- 5 your testimony today? 6 MR. MORIARTY: I prepared a written 7 statement. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Other than that, 9 have you had a chance to review any of the cases that 10 your office listed as happening at least in the four 11 institutions in '06? 12 MR. MORIARTY: I have looked at some of 13 the cases, yes. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So, not asking for 15 supposition, but, rather, do you know why "NC" shows up 16 on your chart? 17 MR. MORIARTY: There wasn't usually 18 enough evidence to prosecute the case -- to move 19 forward with the case. 20 MR. McFARLAND: That's fifteen of the 21 twenty-four. 22 MR. MORIARTY: For -- Yeah, and that's a 23 determination that's made usually in conjunction with 24 the Special Prosecutor's office. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So, Ms. DeBottis, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 121 1 do you have -- Do you know anything about any of these 2 fifteen cases that were not charged? 3 MS. DeBOTTIS: No, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: And there's one that was 5 sentenced, is that correct, Mr. Moriarty? 6 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. That is correct. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Do you know what the 8 sentence was in that case? 9 MR. MORIARTY: I do not. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Do any of your staff, 11 Mr. Cole or Mr. Yosco, know the sentence? It would say 12 a Mountain View victim, so a female, on -- and the date 13 of the incident was September 21 of '06. 14 MR. YOSCO: No, sir. I'm not familiar 15 with it. 16 MR. COLE: No, sir. 17 MR. MORIARTY: That would have been done 18 by neither one of these guys. Neither one of these 19 investigators would be investigating in Mountain View. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Who would that be? 21 MR. MORIARTY: We have an office in that 22 region up there. 23 MR. McFARLAND: And do you know who was 24 assigned in September of '06? 25 MR. MORIARTY: I have 122 investigators, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 122 1 so -- and we handle 3,000 investigations a year inside 2 the system, so it would be difficult to say. 3 MS. DeBOTTIS: I can get you that 4 information if you're interested in a specific sentence 5 on a specific case. I can certainly get you that 6 information from my office. 7 MR. McFARLAND: That would be great. 8 Thank you. 9 MS. DeBOTTIS: Okay. 10 MR. McFARLAND: So, Mr. Moriarty, is it 11 your testimony, based on the records from your office 12 and the preparation you've done for this testimony 13 today, that no allegation of staff-on-inmate sexual 14 victimization rose to the level of opening a criminal 15 investigation by your office at the Estelle Unit in 16 2006? 17 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Do you have -- Have you 19 had a chance to review the Bureau of Justice 20 Statistics, inmate survey results? 21 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Do you have an 23 explanation of how or why inmates in an anonymous 24 survey could say that such a high percentage of them 25 had been involved in staff sexual misconduct -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 123 1 MR. MORIARTY: Well -- 2 MR. McFARLAND: -- and, yet, evidently 3 your office has not, for whatever reason, opened a 4 criminal investigation at all that year at the Estelle 5 Unit? 6 MR. MORIARTY: I think that, you know, 7 when you rely solely on self-reporting you've got some 8 serious problems. 9 MR. McFARLAND: So your explanation would 10 be over reporting and lying by the inmates. 11 MR. MORIARTY: I don't know if -- Well, 12 there's a lot of manipulation of the system that goes 13 on. Texas has made it a benefit to report, both for 14 the victims of sexual assault and those persons that 15 are wanting to take advantage of the benefits that the 16 system has put out there to protect and take care of 17 the people that are true victims. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Do you think that another 19 explanation might be lying on the part of staff? 20 MR. MORIARTY: I still think that no 21 matter what the staff did, the inmates have an avenue 22 to contact my office. You know, I have no -- They have 23 my office and they've got several other offices and 24 avenues that staff would not know that they reported 25 anything to us. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 124 1 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Quarterman, I forgot 2 to ask you yesterday. I believe the Department is 3 looking into a phone system -- 4 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes, sir. 5 MR. McFARLAND: -- for inmates. 6 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: When will that be 8 operational or is it now? 9 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yes, sir. We went out 10 with our RP and we're looking at sometime this year 11 having that phone system in. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So, Mr. Moriarty 13 -- Thank you. Mr. Moriarty, one option that inmates 14 don't currently have is to call your office. Is that 15 right? 16 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct, but their 17 families have that option, but we also have a -- the 18 only -- Well, the first -- I don't know if it's now the 19 only, but we had the first in-prison Crime Stoppers 20 Program in the country and we get a lot of activity on 21 that by mail and that's all privileged correspondence 22 to my office also. 23 MR. McFARLAND: That's kind of a snitch 24 line. Right? 25 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 125 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And what happens 2 to snitches, in your experience? 3 MR. MORIARTY: Well, usually out of my 4 office, if they call that line and the information's 5 good, we -- they get a reward. We have an extensive 6 program that involves -- We don't like the word 7 "snitches" but "informants," and it is the standard 8 operating procedure sent down by the International 9 Chiefs of Police on how to document and utilize 10 informants. It is a critical role in any major law 11 enforcement agency in the country to have that resource 12 available. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Moriarty, when -- or 14 Mr. Cole or Mr. Yosco. When you get a call an alleged 15 sexual assault has occurred, how do you go about 16 investigating it? What do you -- We'll start with 17 Mr. Moriarty. What do you expect your staff to do? 18 MR. MORIARTY: Again, it all depends on 19 how long it's been since the time of occurrence. It's 20 a big playing field. If it's an immediate thing that 21 just occurred within the ninety-six-hour timeframe, 22 we're going to respond people; doesn't matter if it's 23 the middle of the night or not. The unit staff secure 24 the crime scene. We process the scene. The inmate is 25 given the opportunity to -- is offered a forensic Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 126 1 examination, which, of course, we're looking for any 2 and all evidence that we can collect either from the 3 scene or from the inmate and/or the suspect if we know 4 who that is. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Do your folks -- Do your 6 investigators administer the rape kit? 7 MR. MORIARTY: The medical staff 8 administer the rape kit, but our staff -- You know, the 9 ninety-six-hour rule is in place, but if during the 10 course of that initial investigation they determine 11 that a rape kit would be necessary or beneficial to the 12 investigation, they'll tell the medical staff that 13 that's what they want done. 14 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Moriarty, do OIG 15 investigators receive special training -- 16 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 17 MS. ELLIS: -- on investigating sexual 18 assault? 19 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 20 MS. ELLIS: Does that training also 21 include the impact, the trauma, on victims reporting -- 22 MR. MORIARTY: It has. 23 MS. ELLIS: -- in your experience 24 throughout the investigation? 25 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. Let me back up. The Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 127 1 last legislative session prior to that, because of the 2 situation with my division being a law enforcement 3 agency, we were, by law, prohibited from sharing the 4 identity of any inmate that came to us -- and not to 5 the prison system -- with -- if they were victims of 6 sexual assault. We went before the legislature and got 7 that changed so that the victims could receive the most 8 benefits that are available through the Agency's 9 system. 10 MR. McFARLAND: What process is there for 11 tracking locations of hot spots in a -- particularly 12 at-risk areas in -- that are named in investigations? 13 You do that kind of mapping? 14 MR. MORIARTY: I do not do any type of 15 crime mapping inside the prisons, but obviously if the 16 investigator that's assigned to that unit notices a 17 trend, he will notify the unit staff or the command 18 staff at my office and quite -- In the past, we've used 19 that information and provided it to the Agency to put 20 in cameras and that type of thing. We were asked by 21 the Agency to participate in that decision. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Could I just ask Mr. Cole 23 and Mr. Yosco specifically about the Estelle Unit, if 24 y'all could come forward? My question is: Where are 25 the hot spots for staff-on-inmate sexual misconduct in Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 128 1 the Estelle Unit? 2 MR. COLE: There really is not an exact 3 location. The majority of time they are in a cell 4 itself, on a cell block. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 6 MR. COLE: But identifying a location at 7 this point in time, it could be at different locations. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Yosco? 9 MR. YOSCO: I'd agree with Mr. Cole. 10 It's basically staff-on-inmate any location where 11 they'd be subject to be isolated by themselves. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, that's what I'm 13 getting at. Where are those kind of isolated places? 14 You got material here that warns the offenders about 15 where they need to stay away from -- hallways, showers, 16 laundry rooms -- but I can't seem to get a whole lot of 17 direction from the staff as to where those hot spots 18 are. Where would you want to look? Where are the 19 places that you want to track that more often than not, 20 in your experience in investigations at Estelle, is 21 where staff and inmates are going to have little 22 liaisons assuming, of course, it's happening? 23 MR. COLE: That'd be hard to explain 24 exactly every location, but the majority of any type of 25 cases that we investigate are going to be in the cell, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 129 1 on a cell block. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Anywhere else 3 other than the cell block that's isolated? 4 MR. YOSCO: No, sir. I have never seen 5 an exact pattern, per se, as to where something occurs, 6 in my experience. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. In your -- 8 Mr. Yosco, your experience -- The year and a half you 9 were at Estelle, how many sexual assaults between -- or 10 conduct -- sexual misconduct between staff and inmates 11 did you investigate? 12 MR. YOSCO: I remember off the top of my 13 head two, and I can't say they were my investigation. 14 I did assist with the investigation. Off the top of my 15 head, two. There may have been three. I'm not sure. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So two or three, 17 and when we're talking about an investigation, 18 obviously that would be an investigation that's opened. 19 Right? There's no such thing as a closed investigation 20 or a -- we heard testimony about preliminary 21 investigation. Are you -- Which is it that you're 22 talking about, Mr. Yosco, in your experience, sir? 23 MR. YOSCO: The two that I recall were 24 actual investigations, one of them did not have the 25 evidence to pursue criminally. The other one we did, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 130 1 so they were actual investigations, but one was on an 2 administrative investigation. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Do you have any 4 explanation for -- and you were there during 2006, I 5 believe, was your testimony. 6 MR. YOSCO: Yes, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Do you have any 8 explanation to why your office would have no record of 9 the two or three investigations that were open at 10 Estelle in 2006? 11 MR. YOSCO: I'm not sure exactly what the 12 timeline of those investigations were. You asked me 13 during my tenure there. I'm not exactly sure if it was 14 in 2006, per se. 15 MR. MORIARTY: The -- I mean, we may be 16 talking about apples and oranges here. I think you're 17 referring to inmate on -- I mean, officer-on-inmate 18 cases. He's talking about inmate -- can be 19 inmate-on-inmate sexual assaults. 20 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry. I thought I'd 21 asked -- The two or three, Mr. Yosco, that you 22 investigated during 2006 at Estelle, did any of them 23 involve alleged staff-on-inmate sexual misconduct? 24 MR. YOSCO: The timeline -- I'm not sure 25 on the timeline. I'm not sure if it's a case that Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 131 1 one -- A criminal case I can recall, I'm not sure if it 2 was in, 2006, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Well, when were you at 4 Estelle, sir? 5 MR. YOSCO: I was there for approximately 6 a year and a half, which encompasses 2006. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So, do I 8 understand your testimony to be you were there during 9 calendar 2006, for all of 2006, and during that time, 10 you had -- or were involved in two to three criminal 11 investigations that were opened at Estelle? 12 MR. YOSCO: No, sir. I said the one was 13 administrative and one was criminal and I'm -- I said 14 two to three because I -- This is off the top of my 15 head. I'm not sure exactly how many. I recall 16 specifically two; one being criminal, one being 17 administrative. And I'm not sure if that one was in 18 2006 or not. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Well, if you handled it 20 and you were there just a year, year and a half that 21 included 2006, is it your testimony that it might have 22 happened in the early part of 2007? Is that what 23 we're -- 24 MR. YOSCO: It's possible or the latter 25 part of 2005. I'm -- be speculating, sir. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 132 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Mr. Cole, you 2 wanted to say something? 3 MR. COLE: Yes. I have not investigated 4 any of them in 2006. Now, I have had one that led from 5 2005 and I continued the investigation, but it did not 6 occur in 2006. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I've gotta ask 8 about the Galbrath investigation. 9 MR. COLE: Pardon? 10 MR. McFARLAND: Antonio Galbrath was a 11 G-4 inmate and still is at Estelle and he alleges that 12 he was sexually assaulted on January 5, 2006 and that 13 it was investigated. This is all in public litigation 14 and I realize that and I'm not going to inquire into 15 who should have done what, if anything, but I have 16 difficulty understanding why no one can remember a 17 sexual assault being investigated by OIG at Estelle, 18 calendar 2006. 19 MR. MORIARTY: That was an 20 offender-on-offender case. 21 MR. McFARLAND: That's right. Okay. 22 So -- 23 MR. MORIARTY: Now, obviously the case, 24 like you said, is in litigation, but -- 25 MR. McFARLAND: I'm not asking any more Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 133 1 about it. 2 MR. MORIARTY: Okay. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Do either of you 4 gentlemen -- Did either of you cover the Coffield, 5 Clements or Allred Units during 2006? 6 MR. COLE: No, sir. 7 MR. YOSCO: No, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. This is directed 9 to you, Mr. Moriarty. Your office produced some 10 summaries of investigations that your office -- These 11 are four lines -- three or four lines on each of the 12 twenty-four cases that we earlier talked about. Have 13 you got that document? 14 MR. MORIARTY: Staff-on-inmate -- 15 MR. McFARLAND: It's not labeled. 16 MR. MORIARTY: Okay. 17 MR. McFARLAND: We're talking about, for 18 example, at the top, Case 2006-2151, four lines about 19 that case, which is the case about two-thirds of the 20 way down the earlier chart that we're talking about. 21 MR. MORIARTY: What was the top number 22 did you say, sir? 23 MR. McFARLAND: 2151. It's an incident 24 at Coffield. 25 MR. MORIARTY: That's the first one on Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 134 1 the very top? 2 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Page 1, 0569. 3 My mistake -- I was looking at Page 3. 4 MR. MORIARTY: I have it. 5 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Clements, 6 0569, five lines. 7 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 8 MR. McFARLAND: What was done in this 9 case? A letter was addressed to the warden at Clements 10 from an offender alleging that a certain officer was 11 involved in a sexual relationship with the offender 12 from January 1st to March 1st of that year. What was 13 done in that case by your office? 14 MR. MORIARTY: We opened a full-blown 15 criminal investigation. 16 MR. McFARLAND: And that ultimately 17 resulted in criminal charges, is that correct, 18 according to the -- your chart? It's the first one on 19 your chart; one of the fifteen out of twenty-four that 20 had no charges. 21 MR. MORIARTY: Yeah, that's correct. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Do you recall why there 23 were no charges in that case? 24 MR. MORIARTY: The only reason I would 25 assume that that would occur would be is if there was Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 135 1 not enough evidence to move forward. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Well, yeah. Do you have 3 any personal knowledge about it? 4 MR. MORIARTY: No. 5 MR. McFARLAND: I don't want you to 6 guess. 7 MR. MORIARTY: No. 8 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Next one was 9 at Mountain View. I realize that neither of your staff 10 covered that, but among your -- 11 MR. MORIARTY: Well, the only request 12 that my office received was for the investigators from 13 the Estelle Unit -- 14 MR. McFARLAND: No, no, no. I'm not -- I 15 appreciate them coming. I'm not being critical, but 16 you didn't bring all hundred and some odd -- I'm not 17 trying to shut down the Department here. Second one is 18 Mountain View, and do you, sir, have any information 19 about this allegation that -- where an offender alleges 20 that between midnight and four o'clock an officer 21 entered her cell -- inmate being a female at Mountain 22 View -- and sexually assaulted her on the cell floor 23 and that a rape kit was performed? Do you have any 24 information about that one? 25 MR. MORIARTY: I do not. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 136 1 MR. McFARLAND: And that resulted in no 2 charge. 3 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. According to the 4 documents I have in my office, yes. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And we heard 6 yesterday that rape kits -- from Ms. Blount -- are -- 7 that rape kits are given immediately in custody over to 8 your office. Is that correct? The chain of custody 9 goes from the practitioner who administers the rape 10 kit -- 11 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 12 MR. McFARLAND: -- to OIG investigator. 13 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 14 MR. McFARLAND: So in this second case, a 15 rape kit was performed and we don't know if for some 16 reason they just didn't provide enough information for 17 you to bring a charge. 18 MR. MORIARTY: Well, again, like as 19 Ms. DeBottis testified earlier, if it's a consent 20 issue, we wouldn't even process the kit, if it's an 21 admission that it was consensual. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Right. Well, this 23 obviously -- 24 MR. MORIARTY: Or this is a staff case, 25 so obviously it would be processed. That's correct. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 137 1 So it would have been processed normally, and if there 2 was no evidence, there was no identity, the connection 3 between the employee that was recovered in the forensic 4 exam, that's a good possibility that it would not have 5 been prosecuted. 6 MR. McFARLAND: What do you do when it's 7 a he-said-she-said situation? 8 MR. MORIARTY: A lot of times -- 9 Sometimes we utilize polygraph just to get any 10 indication. Obviously, you know, there's not going to 11 be a whole lot of witnesses, but we'll seek out 12 witnesses. I mean, it's a very difficult environment 13 to investigate in. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Are there -- I'm sorry. 15 You didn't -- 16 MR. MORIARTY: No, that's okay. Go 17 ahead. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Are there video cameras 19 at Mountain View? 20 MR. MORIARTY: I don't believe -- I'm not 21 familiar with -- I don't believe there are. Mostly the 22 older units -- I know they're retrofitting some of 23 them, but cameras weren't a major priority early -- in 24 the early years in Texas. When I was working, we 25 didn't have any. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 138 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. So what does your 2 office have to work with when a female inmate says she 3 was raped between 12:00 and 4:00 and there's no 4 videotape that shows the officer going in there and 5 it's just her word against the denial by the officer? 6 What do you have to work with? 7 MR. MORIARTY: The exact same thing the 8 police have in the free world. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Then the third one back 10 at Clements, 0997. Offender alleged that two officers 11 had sexually assaulted him, so this is male-on-male -- 12 two staff members on male -- at 4:30. Well, that's 13 when the notice was. We don't know when the date of 14 incident is. Do you have any knowledge about this 15 matter, and did Mr. Cole or Mr. Yosco have any -- 16 MR. MORIARTY: No. 17 MR. McFARLAND: -- cover Clements as 18 well? 19 MR. MORIARTY: No, sir. 20 MR. McFARLAND: While you're looking, 21 Mr. Cole or Mr. Yosco, did you ever cover Coffield? 22 MR. YOSCO: No, sir. 23 MR. COLE: No, sir. 24 MR. MORIARTY: It's a pretty big state. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, yeah. How about Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 139 1 Allred? 2 MR. YOSCO: No, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. I won't keep 4 asking you, then. 5 MR. MORIARTY: I don't have any other 6 information on that case. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Is it of any significance 8 to you that the same -- that a separate grievance -- 9 the next one, 1055, at the same unit one week later is 10 an allegation that three officers had sexually 11 assaulted this individual and two of them -- two of 12 those officers are the same two officers that are 13 alleged in the previous incident earlier at the same 14 unit? Does that -- Is that probative to you, 15 significant? 16 MR. MORIARTY: Oh, absolutely, and it may 17 be the same victim, too. 18 MR. McFARLAND: And it's the same victim 19 and he's trying to frame these guys. 20 MR. MORIARTY: No. I didn't say that. 21 MR. McFARLAND: No, no. I'm offering 22 that. Just because he names the same two people 23 doesn't mean that they did it. Right? 24 MR. MORIARTY: Well, that's correct, but 25 it's something to take into consideration. You know, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 140 1 normally what we would do in a circumstance like that, 2 we would be polygraphing people because he -- 3 MR. McFARLAND: Well, people as in the 4 staff? 5 MR. MORIARTY: We'd offer them a 6 polygraph, yes, on occasion. It depends on the 7 circumstances. We don't just go -- You know, it 8 depends on what evidence we have, how -- The other 9 thing you need to also take into consideration is, you 10 know, this is all the criminal stuff, but there's also 11 the possibility that we're working an administrative -- 12 concurrent administrative investigation on it. If we 13 can't make the determination criminally -- You know, 14 the lesser burden or preponderance of evidence is also 15 present, you know, we can pursue administrative charges 16 and discipline and/or maybe termination. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. We're going to get 18 to those. All right. Then 1123 at Mountain View, 19 offender alleged that she performed oral sex on the 20 staff member in the food service area. Actually, the 21 vegetable vault, which presumably is like what we were 22 talking about at the Estelle in the butcher's vault. 23 Offender alleges that a staff member penetrated her 24 vagina with his fingers on numerous occasions in the 25 kitchen area with her consent. Do you remember Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 141 1 anything about this incident? 2 MR. MORIARTY: No, sir. Other than 3 what -- you know, the documents I have in front of me. 4 MR. McFARLAND: And so that one -- 5 numerous incidents -- that was a no charge. 6 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And the two that 8 we just talked about at Clements that involved the same 9 two officers one week apart, and that, Ms. DeBottis, 10 was a prosecution refused. Is that correct? 11 MS. DeBOTTIS: Yes, it is. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Do you have any knowledge 13 of the particulars of either of those cases? 14 MS. DeBOTTIS: No, sir. 15 MR. McFARLAND: And then No. 1160, 16 security personnel received information alleging that 17 an officer was involved in an inappropriate 18 relationship with an offender. I received 19 information -- I assume this is a tip from somebody. 20 Is that what that means, Mr. Moriarty? 21 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. It appears it was a 22 complaint from another inmate or another -- maybe 23 employee even. 24 MR. McFARLAND: It was alleged that the 25 officer was opening the cell door on the "J" -- Unit J Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 142 1 wing where offender is assigned and letting that 2 officer enter and keep watch so that an officer and 3 offender could engage in sexual activity. Do you -- 4 Now, that indicates -- Your chart indicates that that 5 was also no charges brought. Is that correct? 6 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Then there are two more 8 from Mountain View, 1263 and 1274, and I don't 9 understand. There's just one sentence on 1263. 10 Offender alleged that she performed oral sex on 11 Lieutenant Something-or-Other in the Mountain View ODR. 12 What's the "ODR"? 13 MR. MORIARTY: The officer dining room. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Would offenders ever have 15 occasion to be in the officer dining room? 16 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Like waiting on tables or 18 something? 19 MR. MORIARTY: Serving food, yes. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Was this lieutenant 21 investigated? 22 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 23 MR. McFARLAND: You remember this one? 24 MR. MORIARTY: No. I don't remember the 25 case, but the documents reflect that we opened an Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 143 1 investigation in the case. 2 MR. McFARLAND: So you're assuming that 3 because you opened a investigation, that you would have 4 interviewed the accused lieutenant. Right? 5 MR. MORIARTY: I don't know the answer to 6 that. I mean, I'm assuming that that was what was 7 done. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Then all -- I mean, 9 you've got files on these, on all of these, I assume. 10 Is that correct? 11 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Then the second 13 Mountain View one that we're talking about now is 1274, 14 and that involves the same lieutenant four days 15 earlier. Offender alleged she had sexual intercourse 16 with this lieutenant outside the Mountain View medical 17 building and that was no charge. Is that correct? 18 MR. MORIARTY: Let's see the -- Yeah. 19 Yes. That's correct. 20 MR. McFARLAND: So, then -- So, if I 21 understand it correctly, we have an allegation of 22 penetration with this lieutenant on Day 6 at Mountain 23 View, and then four days later the same lieutenant 24 alleged to be receiving oral sex in the same unit and 25 there was -- the earlier case, no charge -- and the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 144 1 other case was prosecution refused. Is that correct? 2 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 3 MR. McFARLAND: What would you expect 4 your staff to do with -- if there's an allegation 5 that -- about some quick oral sex in a dining room that 6 may have been abandoned, but full sexual intercourse 7 with an officer occurring outside a medical building, 8 what would you expect your staff to do in investigating 9 that? 10 MR. MORIARTY: Follow the protocol for -- 11 MR. McFARLAND: What is the protocol? 12 What do you expect from that case given that subject of 13 facts? 14 MR. MORIARTY: We have a written protocol 15 for investigating sexual assaults and depending on when 16 it occurred and how long it's been since -- 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. How about May 6th 18 of 2006 at the Mountain View Unit with a particular 19 lieutenant who, four days later, was accused by some 20 offender of getting a blow job? What would you expect 21 your staff to -- 22 MR. MORIARTY: If you -- It wasn't 23 reported to my office until June 12th. 24 MR. McFARLAND: So what would you expect 25 your staff to do on June 12th? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 145 1 MR. MORIARTY: Well, the likelihood of 2 recovering any physical evidence or biological evidence 3 from that would be slim to none unless -- but we 4 probably might give it a shot. We might ask if, you 5 know, they had any -- the clothing that they wore that 6 day, did they wash the clothing? You know, if there 7 was -- In this case, obviously there's no bedding 8 involved, but, you know, we would take all of that for 9 forensic exam, and if the clothing was available, we'd 10 do a alternate light source examination right then and 11 there, more than likely on the clothing to try to 12 detect if there's any semen present for submission to 13 the lab. 14 MR. McFARLAND: How about looking for 15 eyewitnesses? 16 MR. MORIARTY: Well, that'd be good, but 17 the priority of the case would be the physical 18 biological evidence that would tie the suspect to the 19 crime. 20 MS. ELLIS: You mentioned a little while 21 ago when the Chair asked you about a he-said-she-said 22 or situation involving SOI, that you might have 23 available to you everything that law enforcement in the 24 free world have available to you in investigating a 25 case of that nature. What might some of those Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 146 1 techniques be? 2 MR. MORIARTY: As far as the? 3 MS. ELLIS: As a total overall 4 investigation of a case, what might you apply in 5 addition to what we're hearing you share at this point? 6 MR. MORIARTY: Other than the forensic -- 7 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 8 MR. MORIARTY: -- and the evidence 9 collection? 10 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 11 MR. MORIARTY: You know, we do witness 12 interviews. We have polygraphs available. We may -- 13 If there's video, you know, we -- surveillance, we'd be 14 collecting that information. We'd be looking at other 15 cases maybe being worked on a suspect. We'd be looking 16 in -- to see if in the -- if our victim file, we've got 17 a guy that's -- maybe has been a victim multiple times 18 and then the cases have been unsustained on multiple 19 units or has been sustained and he has been a victim 20 before. Is the suspect listed as predator in our 21 predator file? There's -- As a matter of fact, I 22 should probably recant that. We probably have more 23 sources available than the free world has to deal with 24 that circumstance. 25 MS. ELLIS: Would you ever apply a sting? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 147 1 MR. MORIARTY: We -- As I sat here 2 yesterday, we ran a sting operation while this was -- 3 proceeding was going on and we made an arrest of an 4 employee. 5 MS. ELLIS: So they are effective. 6 MR. MORIARTY: We also do a lot of 7 electronic surveillance, covert electronic surveillance 8 equipment that we install in locations and we've been 9 very successful and that's avenue also. 10 MR. McFARLAND: On what unit did your 11 sting operation -- 12 MR. MORIARTY: Yesterday was down in the 13 Beeville area. It was a narcotics case, but we have 14 done video in areas that we've got reports where there 15 may be sexual activity going on and we have been 16 successful at putting that type of surveillance 17 equipment in. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Sir, the -- I'm not going 19 to be able to go through all twenty-four of these, but 20 Cases 1546 and 1547 both occurred again in Mountain 21 View, female victim. Offender alleged that on July 25, 22 between 11:00 and 3:00, which I guess would be the 23 third shift, and the next night, July 26th, that the 24 same officer sexually assaulted her by placing a 25 writing pen into her vagina. That was opened on the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 148 1 31st, six days after -- as was the next one, four days 2 after the date of the alleged incident. Neither of 3 them were charged. Neither of those cases resulted in 4 a charge. Is that correct? 5 MR. MORIARTY: That's what the documents 6 indicate, yes, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Let me ask you about one, 8 1936, which occurred at -- allegedly at Allred. 9 Offender alleged that an officer forced him to perform 10 oral sex on the officer by using a threat that he would 11 plant a weapon on the offender. The alleged assault 12 took place in the SSI closet on the -- pod. What's the 13 SSI closet? 14 MR. MORIARTY: It's a trustee -- 15 MR. McFARLAND: Broom closet? 16 MR. MORIARTY: Broom closet, yeah. 17 MR. McFARLAND: And who has a key to 18 that? 19 MR. MORIARTY: I really don't know who 20 has the key. It'd be the officer on the shift, on the 21 wing. 22 MR. McFARLAND: By the officer on the 23 shift. Would that be a captain or a line officer? 24 MR. MORIARTY: Line officer. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Does that sound like a Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 149 1 plausible means of coercion by a staff member, you 2 threatening that if you didn't perform oral sex on him, 3 that he could find a weapon on him and make life 4 difficult? 5 MR. MORIARTY: It could be possible, yes. 6 MR. McFARLAND: And 1936 was another no 7 charge. Is that correct, sir? 8 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 9 MR. McFARLAND: And then the next one is 10 at Allred. Offender alleges that after a five-year 11 friendship with Officer So-and-So, they participated in 12 consensual sexual intercourse in the SSI closet on -- 13 C-pod, D-space. That resulted in no charge. 14 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. If I could just make 15 one comment, you know, that the -- 16 MR. McFARLAND: Just a minute. And that 17 was opened just three days after the date of the 18 incident. Is that correct? 19 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 20 MR. McFARLAND: So given that -- That's 21 well within the ninety-six hours. Right? 22 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 23 MR. McFARLAND: There's no reference here 24 to a rape kit being administered. Is that correct? 25 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 150 1 MR. McFARLAND: Would you expect a rape 2 kit to be administered when a criminal investigation's 3 been opened seventy-two hours or less? 4 MR. MORIARTY: If the victim consents to 5 the examination, yes. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Would you expect there to 7 be a reference in this document to whether that rape 8 kit was not consented to? 9 MR. MORIARTY: These are just brief 10 summaries of the cases. It doesn't detail anything 11 along those lines. 12 MR. McFARLAND: I'm looking at 2348, 13 which occurred at Clements. Offender, in the grievance 14 that's filed in November of 2006, alleged that an 15 officer entered the cell, stuck her hand -- the female 16 officer -- down the front of his boxer shorts and 17 masturbated him and the -- one of the documents that we 18 talked about right before your panel started that has 19 the more detailed information indicates no -- under the 20 "Comments" section, "no reliable evidence or 21 witnesses." Can an inmate be a reliable witness? 22 MR. MORIARTY: Absolutely. 23 MR. McFARLAND: So what would it mean 24 when it says "no reliable evidence or witnesses?" 25 Maybe that reliability is just modifying evidence and Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 151 1 not witnesses? Is that just saying, in other words, no 2 witnesses and no reliable evidence? 3 MR. MORIARTY: That could be. 4 MR. McFARLAND: But you don't -- Let me 5 ask you, if it's a swearing contest, so to speak, 6 between an inmate and an officer, it's fair to say 7 you're going to give credence to the officer. 8 MR. MORIARTY: No. That's not correct. 9 MR. McFARLAND: You're going to depend on 10 who the officer is and then all the facts. Correct? 11 MR. MORIARTY: And the facts, that's 12 correct. And, again, you know, just as an 13 investigative tool, the utilization of polygraph. You 14 know, we utilize poly -- I have four examiners on 15 staff. 16 MR. McFARLAND: In Case No. 2373, which 17 looks like -- This was the -- The date of the incident 18 was April 5. It wasn't opened until over seven months 19 later and that allegation, the offender alleges that 20 she and this officer had been involved in a personal 21 relationship since March of '06 that involved sexual 22 contact and personal sexually explicit conversations, 23 and the presenting incident was -- involved her, so 24 they're both females -- placing her mouth on the 25 officer's breasts and touching her vagina with her Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 152 1 hand. And that case, it says "inactive" under 2 "Comments." There were no charges. Inactive, how does 3 that differ from -- It's the only inactive that's 4 listed on your chart. Oh, no, there's one other. What 5 does that mean? 6 MR. MORIARTY: That could mean that the 7 victim didn't want to cooperate in the investigation 8 and move forward with charges. That's usually what -- 9 a good -- usually what that means. 10 MR. McFARLAND: So in this case, the 11 female officer evidently denied it and your only 12 witness was the offender and -- I realize you don't 13 have the file, but your supposition is that it would 14 become inactive if the sole victim wouldn't cooperate. 15 Is that right? 16 MR. MORIARTY: We don't have that on our 17 document. I don't know -- We don't see it. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. You got the -- 19 MR. MORIARTY: What's the number on it? 20 MR. McFARLAND: This is the one that has 21 lots more -- It's suspects and outcomes, you mentioned 22 earlier. It has lots more columns: "Pending," 23 "Waiting," "Indicting," "Sentenced," "Other 24 Disposition," "Other Comments." 25 MR. MORIARTY: Excuse me. What was the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 153 1 number again? 2 MR. McFARLAND: 2373, Mountain View. 3 MR. MORIARTY: The other possibility on 4 that is that it didn't meet the elements of the 5 offense. 6 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry, sir. 7 MR. MORIARTY: The other possibility on 8 that is as the investigation progressed, it didn't meet 9 the elements of the offense and they closed it, 10 inactivated it. 11 MR. McFARLAND: There's one other I 12 wanted to ask about. It's 2459, an incident at 13 Coffield. It says, during the investigation of 14 information that Ms. So-and-So was having a 15 relationship with an offender, she was interviewed and 16 admitted to having a sexual relationship with the 17 offender. Now, this is the only one that doesn't 18 identify the predator as a officer, just rather uses 19 the "Ms." Does that mean the individual was not a 20 correctional officer, or could it just be referring to 21 the officer by her -- 22 MR. MORIARTY: Yeah. It's probably not a 23 correctional officer. It would probably be some other 24 support staff on the unit. 25 MR. McFARLAND: So somebody in the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 154 1 administrative offices? 2 MR. MORIARTY: Could be. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Would an inmate have 4 access to that area? 5 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 6 MR. McFARLAND: And could have -- In this 7 case, the staff person admitted, according to your 8 records, to having this ongoing sexual relationship and 9 your chart, the more detailed one, says under 2459, 10 "cleared by exception." What does that mean? 11 MR. MORIARTY: It was -- I mean, that 12 could be several things also, but cleared by the 13 confession and, you know, that it was just -- It could 14 have been charged under another case number. It might 15 have been multiple counts, you know, at different 16 times. They closed that one, but didn't prosecute it 17 and had another one open. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Well, let's see. Just 19 about four lines up, 2151, says, combined with 20 cause such-and-such, so it looks like whoever prepared 21 your document would have said -- Rather than "cleared 22 by exception," they would have said, "Well, this was 23 combined with another one." I mean, your comments are, 24 "Unfounded, no evidence, inactive, combined with 25 another cause, cleared by arrest, no reliable evidence Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 155 1 or witnesses, inactive, indicted" -- and in this 2 case -- "cleared by exception." So those are the 3 options and what does that mean? 4 MR. MORIARTY: I'll have to check on that 5 specific case and get back with you on it. I don't 6 have the details of what exactly that is. 7 MR. McFARLAND: I mean, you've got a 8 confession in this case to an ongoing felony 9 relationship. Is it a felony to -- for a 10 noncorrectional officer, a staff person, to have an 11 ongoing sexual relationship with a person in custody? 12 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. If that's what 13 occurred, yes. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Does your office 15 ordinarily refer for prosecution such felonies? 16 MR. MORIARTY: Absolutely. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Would it be possible for 18 this person to have been allowed to resign and then we 19 just don't refer it to prosecution? 20 MR. MORIARTY: In my written statement, I 21 explain that it doesn't matter what their employment 22 status is. If they're current employees, former 23 employees, we're going after them. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Well, it -- Well, I would 25 appreciate it because here we don't have a Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 156 1 he-said-she-said. We don't have no reliable witnesses. 2 We don't have -- We have a confession of a ongoing 3 sexual relationship between an offender and a turned 4 employee and -- so I would ask that if your office 5 could provide us with the details, which we will 6 respect the privacy, of course, of the individuals 7 involved, that'd really be helpful to know what, if 8 anything, was done and why this wasn't prosecuted and 9 why this is listed as a -- 10 MR. MORIARTY: Can you give me that 11 number one more time, please? 12 MR. McFARLAND: 2459. "Prosecution, 13 refused, cleared by exception." What would it take to 14 have a prosecution here? 15 MS. DeBOTTIS: Without knowing the 16 facts -- and, again, with the term "cleared by 17 exception," that could encompass a lot of different 18 investigative outcomes. I don't know if perhaps this 19 was a case that could have been rolled over into 20 another case that may have been sentenced or something 21 else may have happened with it. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 23 MS. DeBOTTIS: But if I could go back to 24 what you had asked me earlier to find out the 25 information on that one case that was sentenced. I Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 157 1 e-mailed my legal assistant and I have the outcome of 2 the case, the sentence on that case. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you. 4 MS. DeBOTTIS: That was an individual -- 5 Again, I don't know the facts, but the charge was 6 attempted sexual assault and he received twelve months 7 deferred adjudication and a $4,000 fine. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And what does "deferred 9 adjudication" mean? 10 MS. DeBOTTIS: Deferred adjudication is a 11 form of probation where if the individual successfully 12 completes that term of probation, they do not have a 13 felony conviction. The flip side is, if they violate 14 that probation, they can be imprisoned for the entire 15 term of the offense as opposed to just what they pled 16 to, so he could -- If he violated the term, he could be 17 subject to the full range of punishment and not just 18 the twelve months. 19 MR. McFARLAND: And that was 2374? 20 MS. DeBOTTIS: Yes. 21 MR. McFARLAND: So it was a female? 22 MS. DeBOTTIS: It was a female victim and 23 the suspect -- or the defendant was a male. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And that was an 25 allegation that they had kissed and she had performed Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 158 1 oral sex on the male defendant. 2 MS. DeBOTTIS: I'm not sure what the 3 actual allegation was, if that's what your records 4 show, but he was convicted of the attempted sexual 5 assault. 6 MR. McFARLAND: And paid a $4,000 -- 7 Well, fined $4,000. 8 MS. DeBOTTIS: Yeah, $4,000 fine and a 9 year's worth of deferred adjudication. 10 MR. McFARLAND: So he's been doing time. 11 MS. DeBOTTIS: No. 12 MR. McFARLAND: I mean, no -- 13 Subsequently has that deferred adjudication kicked in? 14 Has he been in trouble or do you know? 15 MS. DeBOTTIS: I don't know. I would 16 have to check with his probation officer. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Well, we'll -- I have 18 obviously more questions. We have more questions, so 19 we will take a lunch now and why don't we reconvene at 20 1:45, about an hour? 21 (Break taken.) 22 MR. McFARLAND: Well, welcome. Thank you 23 for coming back. Now, Ms. White, your responsibilities 24 at the Estelle Unit are -- You're the chairman of the 25 entire SCC. Right? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 159 1 MS. WHITE: I am, yes. I am the 2 chairman. I provide -- 3 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 4 MS. WHITE: -- the state 5 classification -- 6 MR. McFARLAND: Yes. 7 MS. WHITE: -- to the SCC members. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yes. And SCC makes the 9 ultimate decision about the custody levels of all the 10 inmates. Right? 11 MS. WHITE: No, sir. Actually, SCC makes 12 the unit assignments and recommends an SC level. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, that's right. And 14 then the UCC makes the final decision about custody 15 levels in their unit. Is that correct? 16 MS. WHITE: At their unit, yes. Now, let 17 me clarify that a little bit further. When there is 18 discussion about a custody level, SCC can override the 19 Unit Classification's decision. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 21 MS. WHITE: Okay? 22 MR. McFARLAND: And, Ms. Ballard, can you 23 just briefly summarize, what steps does the UCC -- I'm 24 sorry. You are on the UCC at Estelle. Is that right? 25 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir, I am. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 160 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. What steps does 2 the UCC take to ensure, you know, the correct housing 3 assignments as far as inmates not -- who either show up 4 on a predator or victim list not getting 5 inappropriately housed? 6 MS. BALLARD: On our count board in our 7 count rooms, we have our victims and predators marked 8 so we know when we get ready to house one, that we know 9 who they are beforehand. We also check their 07 Screen 10 to make sure they have no -- 11 MR. McFARLAND: Great. And how many 12 folks at Estelle are actually involved in the 13 classification process? 14 MS. BALLARD: Talking about my staff -- 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 16 MS. BALLARD: -- or all the staff? You 17 have the chairman, which is the major or the wardens. 18 The lieutenant -- chairperson. I have -- Mental Health 19 sits on it and I have ADS. It's disabled. The 20 interpreters, they sit on the committee, plus my case 21 managers. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Is that a rotating 23 membership? 24 MS. BALLARD: On the case managers, yes, 25 it is. It's just whose available to sit on the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 161 1 committee that day, whether it's the warden or the 2 major. 3 MR. McFARLAND: And the function of the 4 UCC is what exactly? 5 MS. BALLARD: To assign a custody level 6 and look at a job -- job placements for the offenders. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And would you do bed 8 re-assignments as well? 9 MS. BALLARD: If it pertains to custody 10 level, yes. 11 MR. McFARLAND: What if it doesn't? 12 MS. BALLARD: Ninety percent of the time 13 when they come in there, they're not coming in for a 14 house change. They're coming in there to be 15 re-assigned for their custody level, therefore, that 16 makes them go to a different housing room. 17 MR. McFARLAND: I see. Now, what about 18 someone that says, "I gotta get away from this 19 particular cellmate. I need a bed in a different 20 cell"? Would they come to UCC? 21 MS. BALLARD: They come in and I get them 22 on the I-60 and state that him and his cellie are not 23 getting along. I look at the next appropriate house to 24 put them in when they -- and I'm -- 25 MR. McFARLAND: And how do you find out Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 162 1 that they're not getting along? I mean, what's the 2 process? 3 MS. BALLARD: They either write me or 4 they write the captains or they stop somebody in the 5 hall. They'll tell the lieutenants. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And what kind of 7 information is important to you in making that decision 8 when to move somebody in a different cell or a 9 different wing or transfer them out? 10 MS. BALLARD: I look at how many times 11 he's moved. Is he -- Is it a chronic? Every time I 12 put him in a house, does he say he can't get along? 13 What is the circumstances to why he's saying he needs 14 to move? 15 MR. McFARLAND: So -- and then focusing 16 in on the situation of somebody claiming that they're 17 concerned about being sexually assaulted, what's been 18 your experience with folks who express that kind of 19 fear? 20 MS. BALLARD: I've never had one tell me 21 that he's afraid of being sexually assaulted. They 22 just -- They don't get along with their cellie or 23 incompatibility. 24 MR. McFARLAND: You never had an inmate 25 say, "This" -- "I'm" -- You know, "I'm openly an open Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 163 1 homosexual and I'm concerned that this new cellmate is 2 going to hit on me"? 3 MS. BALLARD: No, sir. 4 MS. ELLIS: Hello, again. 5 MS. BALLARD: Hi. 6 MS. ELLIS: How many people do you have 7 in your unit that you supervise? 8 MS. BALLARD: That I supervise, twenty. 9 MS. ELLIS: Are you confident that they 10 are all trained as far as PREA is concerned, 11 understand -- 12 MS. BALLARD: Yes, ma'am. 13 MS. ELLIS: -- sexual impact, the impact, 14 the important role it plays in the institution? 15 MS. BALLARD: Yes, ma'am. 16 MS. ELLIS: Do you have any thoughts 17 about what inmates fear most during their stay in 18 prison? 19 MS. BALLARD: No ma'am, not really. 20 MS. ELLIS: No idea? 21 MS. BALLARD: No. 22 MS. ELLIS: I have a question for you, 23 Ms. White, sociologist. Do you have any thoughts about 24 what inmates fear most during their stay? 25 MS. WHITE: I'm not a sociologist. I'm Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 164 1 the chairman. 2 MS. ELLIS: I thought I heard you say 3 that you were -- 4 MS. WHITE: I was a sociologist, yes. 5 MS. ELLIS: You have that experience. 6 MS. WHITE: Trying to remember what they 7 said they feared most. I really don't recall one 8 particular area that they fear the most. I really 9 don't. 10 MS. ELLIS: Thank you. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Let me ask both of you: 12 What steps -- In a case of staff sexual misconduct, 13 what steps do you take to protect inmate victims who 14 might make a report? 15 MS. BALLARD: What steps would I take? 16 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Would you ever 17 have occasion to -- 18 MS. BALLARD: Not that I'm aware if I'd 19 ever had the occasion, but if it ever happened or ever 20 have occurred, I would make sure the inmate was 21 separated and put where he couldn't be harmed. 22 MR. McFARLAND: What's the difference 23 between safekeeping and protective custody? 24 MS. WHITE: Safekeeping is within general 25 population. That is where the -- a custody we place Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 165 1 offenders in that tend to be weak and vulnerable and 2 they are in a housing area among themselves. They are 3 still within general population and they recreate, they 4 eat separate and shower separate from the rest of the 5 population, but they do attend programs and their jobs 6 within general population. Protective custody is a 7 much higher level of security and it's the highest 8 level of protection within the Agency. And those 9 offenders who are removed from general population are 10 actually placed or separated from general population, 11 within administrative segregation. 12 MS. ELLIS: Do they engage in programs? 13 MS. WHITE: No, ma'am, they cannot. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Are they two to a cell in 15 the Estelle Unit? 16 MS. WHITE: No, one to a cell. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Are there two to a cell 18 in any Ad Seg in the Department? 19 MS. WHITE: No. 20 MR. McFARLAND: I'm just referring to 21 EAC No. 12777-10-06. It is reported October 31, 2006. 22 I'll just read it to you because it raises this 23 question. "Family member of an offender called the 24 unit and stated that the offender was alleging that he 25 was being sexually assaulted. When questioned, the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 166 1 offender alleged that he and his cellmate got into a 2 fight over food. Offender claimed he became 3 exhausted" -- and I guess his cellie tied a sock around 4 his neck, cut off his clothes with a razor blade, 5 penetrated his rectum with his finger twice and 6 penetrated his penis but did not succeed. The OIG, 7 McGuire, Mr. Moriarty's staff, was notified. "No 8 forensic exam due to time lapse." Then it says, "Both 9 offenders were housed in administrative segregation at 10 the time of the incident." Where would there be 11 occasion for two offenders, if they're single-cell, to 12 do all that stuff? 13 MS. BALLARD: The Ad Seg offenders or G-5 14 offenders? Our G-5 offenders are housed in our Ad Seg 15 facility and they are double-celled. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Is that just Estelle or 17 is that systemwide, that G-5 -- that you can have 18 double-cell in Ad Seg? 19 MS. BALLARD: They're not classified as 20 Ad Seg. 21 MR. McFARLAND: They're in the same 22 facility. Right? 23 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: All right. So call it 25 whatever you may, you can have double-cell folks in the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 167 1 facility that is known as Ad Seg. Right? 2 MS. BALLARD: If they're G-5 custody. 3 MR. McFARLAND: G-5. And those are the 4 worst. 5 MS. BALLARD: In our general population, 6 correct. 7 MR. McFARLAND: I was going to ask you 8 about mishousing. Ms. Ballard, would you be the most 9 knowledgeable about the protocol that you know the 10 policy on keeping track of the folks who are not being 11 housed according to what their custody level would 12 ordinarily dictate? 13 MS. BALLARD: We have some at the unit, 14 yes, sir. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And how do you 16 keep track of them? 17 MS. BALLARD: We have them on a locator 18 and we have special -- codes and monitors so we can 19 print up those locators and know exactly where they 20 are. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And who do you 22 supply that information to? 23 MS. BALLARD: We let State -- SCC knows 24 how many we have mishoused every day. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And how is that Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 168 1 information used? 2 MS. BALLARD: What do you mean? 3 MR. McFARLAND: Well, what use is the 4 information? Does it matter? Does anybody use that to 5 make any decisions? 6 MS. BALLARD: We use it to keep up with 7 whose been there the longest. Those are the ones we 8 try to move first so they don't have to be there as 9 long. 10 MR. McFARLAND: So at Estelle, how 11 long -- For example, right now, what's the longest that 12 somebody's been mishoused? 13 MS. BALLARD: We try not to mishouse 14 anybody over thirty days. I'm not going to say it 15 doesn't happen. We have a problem because we're the 16 medical facility and we have more -- and it's our 17 medical restrictions that keep us from housing. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Can you pull the 19 microphone closer? Now, as I understood that policy 20 that I asked somebody else earlier about, you keep -- 21 You keep two lists. One is those who have thirty days 22 or less and then a list that are mishoused thirty days 23 or more. Is that right? 24 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And so I realize you try Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 169 1 not to let anybody be mishoused more than a month, but 2 right now, for example, do you have anybody whose been 3 mishoused over thirty days? 4 MS. BALLARD: I don't know, sir. I'd 5 have to look at the report. 6 MR. McFARLAND: And how often do you have 7 occasion to look at that report? 8 MS. BALLARD: I get one every morning. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, then, how 10 about yesterday? What was the longest that somebody 11 had been mishoused yesterday? 12 MS. BALLARD: To be -- I don't look at 13 the dates. I look at who -- what custody levels I have 14 there and their medical restrictions. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 16 MS. BALLARD: I have thirty -- Yesterday, 17 I had thirty-six that were mishoused. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And are any -- 19 When we're talking about mishoused, does that mean that 20 someone who is a G-2 might be housed with G-4s? 21 MS. BALLARD: No, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So what does 23 mishousing look like? 24 MS. BALLARD: On the Estelle Unit, our 25 mishoused are staying in our transient beds and so Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 170 1 there're G-2s living in G-2 transient beds. My G-4s 2 and G-5s are staying in transient G-4/G-5 beds. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 4 MS. BALLARD: It's different level of 5 security on those wings. 6 MR. McFARLAND: So do you ever have at 7 Estelle -- and I'd ask the same question of you, 8 Ms. White, system-wide. To your knowledge, is there 9 ever a situation where an inmate is housed for as 10 little as thirty days or three days or forty days with 11 someone who is of a different custody level? 12 MS. BALLARD: No, sir. 13 MS. WHITE: No. 14 MR. McFARLAND: So you're never going to 15 have a G-2 with a G-4 -- 16 MS. WHITE: No. 17 MR. McFARLAND: -- or a G-5 with a G-1 18 or -- 19 MS. BALLARD: No, sir. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Great. Are you both 21 familiar with the TDCJ Unit Classification Procedure 22 Manual? 23 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir. 24 MS. WHITE: Yes. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Y'all, I imagine, wrote Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 171 1 it. Right? 2 MS. WHITE: No, not necessarily. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Not necessarily. All 4 right. Now, under No. 4.00, Unit Classification 5 Procedure, dated July 2005 -- No. I'm sorry -- 6 December 2005 -- it says under "General Housing 7 Guidelines" -- "in making housing assignments, 8 consideration will be given to characteristics such as 9 age, height and weight, violent or past -- criminal 10 sophistication, homosexual (active/impassive) 11 tendencies, offender enemies, STG status and current 12 institutional adjustment." And "STG" stands for? 13 MS. WHITE: Security Threat Group. 14 MR. McFARLAND: So that would be -- That 15 could be like Aryan Brotherhood or something. 16 MS. WHITE: Yes. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. "A study of Safe 18 Prison Programs statistics," it says, "suggests housing 19 cell partners within nine years and forty pounds of 20 each other to the maximum extent possible," period. 21 Are you familiar with those statistics that are 22 referenced in that last sentence? Is there some 23 study -- and I guess I should have asked Mr. Bales 24 yesterday. Some study of the Safe Prisons Program that 25 you consider in your housing decisions? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 172 1 MS. WHITE: Are you asking if we're 2 familiar with the actual statistics? Is that what 3 you're asking? 4 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Why don't we start 5 with that? 6 MS. WHITE: No, no. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 8 MS. WHITE: I'm familiar with the 9 recommendation from Safe Prisons. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And so is that an 11 accurate -- What I read in Paragraph 4 of the "General 12 Housing Guidelines," is that how you -- are those among 13 the guidelines that you consider in making your housing 14 assignments? 15 MS. BALLARD: Yes, it is. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And do you have 17 access to information about the -- these various 18 characteristics, obviously age, height, weight, violent 19 or passive tendencies? How would you know about 20 homosexual tendencies? 21 MS. BALLARD: Only if it's listed on the 22 07 Screen. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 24 MS. WHITE: It's also in additional 25 information sheet as well that's collected during the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 173 1 intake process. It's in additional information report 2 that is collected during the intake process by the 3 sociologist. 4 MR. McFARLAND: And within an intake 5 process at one of the five intake centers? 6 MS. WHITE: Yes, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Is there any such 8 opportunity or any interview like that done at the 9 various units after intake when they end up at Estelle 10 or Allred? 11 MS. WHITE: An interview that -- 12 MR. McFARLAND: In which the inmate can 13 volunteer that they have homosexual tendencies. 14 MS. WHITE: Oh, well, sure. I mean, he 15 could at any time -- 16 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. 17 MS. WHITE: He could report that during 18 the UCC. He could report it during offender protection 19 investigation. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Is it asked after the 21 intake interview? Is it ever asked or solicited? 22 MS. BALLARD: When they fill out the Safe 23 Prison Sheet when he comes on the unit. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And then "Offender 25 Job Assignments," is this the procedure, January 2005, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 174 1 by which you, Ms. Ballard -- does this govern how you 2 make offender assignments and jobs? 3 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir, it is. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Two-page document. How 5 long can an offender be assigned to transient housing 6 prior to their classification by the UCC? 7 MS. BALLARD: We see them within 8 twenty-four hours. 9 MR. McFARLAND: And is transient housing 10 double-bunked or single-bunked? 11 MS. BALLARD: For the most part, it's 12 double-bunked. There are some singles. 13 MR. McFARLAND: And when you -- What 14 information do you get on an inmate before you make a 15 housing assignment? You got the results of the 16 interview at the intake center. 17 MS. BALLARD: Uh-huh. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Is that a "yes"? 19 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir. We use the -- 20 The screens on the computer -- You check all the 21 screens to make sure there's no enemies listed, that's 22 if he's been in another facility and he already has a 23 custody level that we go by. Sometimes they come in 24 for a downgrade or an upgrade or just remain in the 25 same custody. We're going to check his disciplinary. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 175 1 We're going to check his 07 and see if he has any 2 enemies, what his tendencies are. If he's a predator 3 or a victim, it will be listed on the 07 Screen. 4 MR. McFARLAND: So would you have that 5 information before you assign them to transient 6 housing? 7 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: So there's not an 9 occasion when a new inmate can even spend one night 10 with somebody who might turn out to be a predator 11 without your knowledge. 12 MS. BALLARD: If he's listed as a 13 predator, then, no, sir. I would not put a victim with 14 a predator. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. You got to -- My 16 point is, you've got all the information, even at the 17 time of the transient housing assignment, that you need 18 to make sure a victim or a openly homosexual individual 19 is not going to be assaulted the first night in 20 transient housing. 21 MS. BALLARD: Correct. 22 MS. ELLIS: Ms. Ballard, what 23 considerations would you give for a transgender 24 individual? 25 MS. BALLARD: A transgender, when we Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 176 1 first put him on the facility, we do not give him a 2 cellmate until they get evaluated by medical as well 3 as -- 4 MS. ELLIS: With those recommendations, 5 you would then? 6 MS. BALLARD: Yes, ma'am. We do have two 7 transgenders in the facility. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Now, I'm looking at a 9 document entitled -- Well, it's an interoffice 10 communications. The subject is "Emergency Housing 11 Remove" and it doesn't have a date, but it appears to 12 be a form. Are you familiar with this one-page 13 document? 14 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir, I am. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And how is it 16 used? 17 MS. BALLARD: When the security staff in 18 the evenings, after 5:00, when they move an offender, 19 they have to fill that out to justify why they moved 20 the offender. They turn it into me. I log it and that 21 way we can keep up with why the offender was moved or 22 if there's an issue. 23 MR. McFARLAND: At some point, will an 24 inmate have to spend more than twenty-four hours in 25 transient housing if he had not been classified Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 177 1 previously at the intake center? 2 MS. BALLARD: We see all our offenders 3 the next day. On Fridays -- We see any new assigned 4 offenders on Friday afternoons. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Are you -- either of 6 you -- involved in making recommendations or deciding 7 on whether somebody gets safekeeping? 8 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir. I'm on the 9 committee. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Have you ever 11 recommended an inmate be given safekeeping? 12 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir, I have. 13 MR. McFARLAND: And have you ever done 14 that for an inmate because of your concern that they 15 then might be a sexual assault victim? 16 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Has that -- Have 18 you done that often? 19 MS. BALLARD: I've done it one time that 20 I remember. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So it's not a 22 frequent occurrence. 23 MS. BALLARD: No, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Sorry to keep you 25 waiting, but you produced a lot of documents here, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 178 1 especially in classification areas, so I'm not going to 2 ask them all. I'm looking at Page 95, your 3 classification manual. I believe that's 4 "Classification Plan" revised as of October, 2003. 5 Have that document? 6 MS. BALLARD: Just Page 95? 7 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, under "Housing for 8 Offenders and Victims, Select Disciplinary Offenses." 9 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Do I understand 11 that Section II(a) to indicate that an offender is 12 ordinarily not going to be assigned dormitory housing 13 if the offender has been convicted of an assault, 14 sexual assault misconduct? Is that correct? 15 MS. BALLARD: Correct. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Is that referring -- 17 obviously a conviction. Is that referring to his 18 criminal past or could that be an assault while 19 incarcerated? I assume you could be convicted of 20 sexual assault while incarcerated and that would 21 constitute aggressive sexual misconduct, but is that 22 right? 23 MS. BALLARD: While he's incarcerated? 24 MR. McFARLAND: What does it mean -- What 25 are they talking about in your manual on Page 95 when Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 179 1 they say "aggressive sexual misconduct conviction"? 2 MS. BALLARD: You would look at what he 3 was convicted of as well as what he's done while he's 4 been incarcerated. 5 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And then similarly 6 under Section B, it indicates that there are no 7 mitigating circumstances for aggressive sexual 8 misconduct, so if this person has a conviction for 9 aggressive sexual misconduct, there are no excuses and 10 summarily are ineligible for dormitory housing. Is 11 that correct? 12 MS. BALLARD: Correct. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Are you aware of any 14 exceptions to that? 15 MS. BALLARD: No, sir. 16 MR. McFARLAND: In your experience, 17 you've never seen any sexual assaults. 18 MS. BALLARD: No, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: You have -- At some dorm 20 houses, you got ger-- 21 MS. BALLARD: Geriatrics Unit, yes, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: -- geriatrics and you got 23 the substance abuse -- 24 MS. BALLARD: Correct. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Ms. White, are you Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 180 1 familiar with the facilities that have dormitory 2 housing for offenders? I mean, you know which ones 3 have them. Are you aware of any instance where those 4 guidelines have not been followed despite some -- 5 MS. WHITE: I'm -- 6 MR. McFARLAND: -- conviction of assault 7 or sexual conduct? 8 MS. WHITE: I'm not aware of it. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Would you have known as 10 having been -- 11 MS. WHITE: The only way that I would 12 have known, if I just would have happened upon it, if I 13 would have been looking at an offender on the computer 14 and I would have happened to look where he was 15 assigned. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 17 MS. WHITE: That would be the main way 18 that I would know about it. 19 MR. McFARLAND: But in your six years on 20 the SCC, you haven't run across a situation like that 21 where somebody's -- 22 MS. WHITE: I don't recall. 23 MR. McFARLAND: You don't recall. 24 MS. WHITE: Looked at hundreds of 25 thousands of -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 181 1 MR. McFARLAND: Let me just ask, 2 Mr. Moriarty, I believe you testified earlier that your 3 office distinguishes between administrative 4 investigations and criminal investigations. Right? 5 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. 6 MR. McFARLAND: And you do both. 7 MR. MORIARTY: Yes. And while you got 8 me, I checked on that case that you had a question 9 about earlier about "cleared by exception" case. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 11 MR. MORIARTY: What it was, was it didn't 12 meet the elements of the offense. There was a 13 videotape, a hidden camera we put in that caught the 14 one, but it was just kissing. 15 MR. McFARLAND: So -- 16 MR. MORIARTY: So it was downgraded to a 17 administrative case and the person resigned in lieu of 18 termination. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. But in that case, 20 they -- the individual admitted having a consensual 21 sexual relationship to the offender for an ongoing 22 period of time, didn't they? 23 MR. MORIARTY: Admitted to kissing the 24 offender. That was the admission. It wasn't sexual 25 intercourse or sexual contact. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 182 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So your 2 understanding of current Texas law, that didn't 3 constitute a criminal violation. 4 MR. MORIARTY: That's correct. 5 MR. McFARLAND: And, Ms. DeBottis, would 6 you concur with that? 7 MS. DeBOTTIS: That is correct. Kissing 8 does not fall under the Improper Sexual Activity with a 9 Person in Custody statute. 10 MR. McFARLAND: And even if someone 11 confessed to -- I'm not -- I'm asking hypothetically 12 now. If they confess while they were only caught 13 kissing on video, that there was more to the 14 relationship of a sexual nature, would that have 15 changed your result? Would they have been able to be, 16 quote, cleared by exception? 17 MS. DeBOTTIS: Well, cleared by exception 18 is an investigative tool not a prosecutorial term, but 19 in the prosectorial world, that would be a factor that 20 I would consider. I would certainly consider a 21 person's motivation for maybe admitting to something, 22 but not admitting to something else. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Well, would you prosecute 24 it criminally? 25 MS. DeBOTTIS: I would look at all of the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 183 1 evidence that could support that, looking at the 2 victim's statement, for example. If the victim did 3 indicate that there was more -- again, I'm talking 4 hypothetically -- if there was some other evidence to 5 suggest that the relationship was more than just 6 kissing, certainly I would look at a lot of other 7 factors and not just what the suspect is admitting to. 8 MR. McFARLAND: So it wouldn't be enough 9 to prosecute if she said, "Yeah. We've been sexually 10 involved for several years. You caught us kissing on 11 the video, but there's a lot more to the relationship 12 and I'd like to resign and not be prosecuted." That 13 wouldn't be enough? 14 MS. DeBOTTIS: No. You're talking about 15 a suspect giving a statement? We're talking 16 hypothetical? 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. We're talking 18 hypothetically, but that was also this case. 19 MS. DeBOTTIS: Again, not knowing the 20 specifics of this specific case, if a suspect gave a 21 statement, gave a written statement that there was 22 more, that could certainly be something that we could 23 hypothetically prosecute, yes. If they admitted it, 24 that could be something that would certainly lead to 25 prosecution. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 184 1 MR. McFARLAND: Ms. Ballard, talking 2 about single-cell. You have any idea how many inmates 3 in -- have you classified under the "CM," "CI" or "CV" 4 designated codes have -- you have -- or have at 5 Estelle? 6 MS. BALLARD: Right off the top of my 7 head -- I can give you an estimate -- 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 9 MS. BALLARD: -- but it won't be a 10 definite. 11 MR. McFARLAND: I understand. You 12 talking about a lot of them or -- 13 MS. BALLARD: Fifteen to twenty. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Have any of them 15 been victims of any sexual violence, to your knowledge? 16 MS. BALLARD: To my knowledge, no, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: And how does Estelle 18 maintain a list of the inmates that fall into those 19 three categories? 20 MS. BALLARD: I can print it off the info 21 pack, or if they look at their board tags on the board, 22 it's clearly marked that they're single-cell. Those 23 codes are on their board tags. They're also on the 07 24 Screen. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And how is that Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 185 1 information -- Does the management use that information 2 to determine how many single-cell beds it's going to 3 need or need in the future? Do you know if anybody 4 else looks at that kind of information? 5 MS. BALLARD: I don't know, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: The OPI log is under your 7 responsibility. Is that right? 8 MS. BALLARD: Yes, sir, it is. 9 MR. McFARLAND: When the UCC is doing the 10 initial screenings, the -- On Page 5 of the Safe 11 Prisons Plan, it says that "during initial screenings, 12 the UCC shall ask offenders whether they have been 13 sexually abused while incarcerated at any time in the 14 past." Where do those initial screenings take place? 15 MS. BALLARD: They talk to them when they 16 have them in there for committee. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Other than UCC and 18 the offender, anybody else around? Is it done in 19 private, in other words? 20 MS. BALLARD: Yes. They're done in 21 private. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Moriarty, when your 23 staff conducted initial interview with the alleged 24 victim, where's that done? Where do you expect that to 25 be done? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 186 1 MR. MORIARTY: Well, it kind of all 2 depends on where he's housed, you know, what the -- You 3 know, we're talking about him being -- it may be in 4 medical or in a cell. I mean, it just could be 5 wherever -- wherever he is when they arrive to get an 6 initial statement. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. What if -- 8 Wouldn't you want to move the individual into a more 9 private place if he's alleging that his cellmate raped 10 him or does -- Do you just expect your folks to take 11 that statement right there with the cellmate -- the 12 suspect standing next to him? 13 MR. MORIARTY: Oh, no. The suspect 14 wouldn't be standing next to him. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Where would they take 16 him? 17 MR. MORIARTY: He'd be away from -- I'm 18 talking about a cell where he's being relocated to 19 maybe or on the unit in protective custody or something 20 along those lines or in the Medical Department after 21 the exam or maybe before the exam. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I think that does 23 it. Thank you very much for your testimony and your 24 time and -- 25 MS. DeBOTTIS: Mr. Chairman, is there any Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 187 1 way -- I'd like to just clarify on the record. In the 2 agenda, y'all have me listed as the Special Prosecution 3 Unit of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, and 4 we are actually an independent agency. We're funded on 5 a grant out of the Governor's office. We're not 6 employees of TDCJ. I don't report to anybody at TDCJ. 7 We're just funded out of the Governor's office to 8 assist in these prosecution of the crimes in these 9 facilities, but we are actually not part of the 10 Department of Criminal Justice. 11 MR. McFARLAND: That's very helpful. 12 Thank you. And, Mr. Moriarty, the OIG is part of the 13 Department? 14 MR. MORIARTY: The funds come through the 15 Agency, but I report to the Board of Criminal Justice, 16 not the administrative side of TDCJ. I have direct 17 report, just like the executive director has, to the 18 board. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Great. Thank you all 20 very much. 21 MR. MORIARTY: We also -- We both have 22 statements that we'd like to submit. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, thank you very much. 24 I'd like to have those submitted into the record. 25 Thanks. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 188 1 (Witness statements submitted to Panel.) 2 MR. LIVINGSTON: To both clarify and 3 expand on our statements from yesterday -- and I know 4 you have extensive panels still forthcoming and I won't 5 take too much of your time, but I do want to point out 6 certainly our ongoing frustration is the disconnect 7 between the survey and the reported numbers. And then 8 there have been a whole lot of discussions and points 9 about that over the course of the last day and a half, 10 and also in some cases the seeming willingness to take 11 those survey results at face value. 12 However, we cannot solve that disconnect 13 here today and to a certain extent it misses the point. 14 I want to instead focus on our commitment that we have 15 to have both a zero commitment policy -- a zero 16 tolerance policy and practice within our system. 17 Sexual assault in prison at any level, whether it's at 18 the reported levels that we have in our documentation 19 or at the level in the survey, is unacceptable. 20 Just as every system does, Texas 21 Department of Criminal Justice has sexual activity and 22 sexual assaults in our prisons. As I said yesterday, 23 we won't back pedal from that fact. It is unacceptable 24 and we will redouble our efforts to ensure that both 25 staff and offenders understand our commitment to Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 189 1 eliminate it. We will also ensure that our operations 2 are always -- match the solid policies and processes 3 that we have in place. Certainly we're not perfect and 4 we have room for improvement. Make no mistake about 5 it, as I indicated yesterday, I am and we are committed 6 to eliminating sexual assault in TDCJ at every level, 7 at whatever level it's at. 8 Again, we won't solve that disconnect 9 today and it's certainly my expectation that everybody 10 who works for TDCJ, from myself to Mr. Quarterman, all 11 of our wardens, all the way down to the correctional 12 officers who do the hard work on the ground every day 13 of the week, it's my expectation that they have that 14 same commitment as well. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you very much, 16 Mr. Livingston. I appreciate that. 17 MS. ELLIS: I do appreciate your sharing 18 those ideas and thoughts and certainly I recognize that 19 you are indeed committed to safety for inmates and 20 safety for your staff. 21 MR. LIVINGSTON: Thank you. 22 MR. McFARLAND: At this time, we'll call 23 the final panel; Mr. Brian Rodeen, Eddie Williams, 24 Octavious Black and Raymond Thompson. Good afternoon. 25 WARDEN THOMPSON: Good afternoon. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 190 1 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Good afternoon. 2 WARDEN RODEEN: Good afternoon. 3 WARDEN BLACK: Good afternoon. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Please raise your right 5 hand to swear you in. 6 (Witnesses complying.) 7 MR. McFARLAND: Do you solemnly swear or 8 affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be 9 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, 10 so help you God? 11 WARDEN THOMPSON: I do. 12 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I do. 13 WARDEN RODEEN: I do. 14 WARDEN BLACK: I do. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Would you please identify 16 your name and title and how long you've been with the 17 Department and how long you've been in that position? 18 WARDEN THOMPSON: I am Raymond Thompson, 19 warden at the Coffield Unit, twenty-seven years in the 20 system, and I've been in Coffield since June of '05. 21 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I'm Eddie Williams, 22 twenty-six years. I've been appointed as warden of 23 Allred, July of 2006. 24 WARDEN RODEEN: I'm Brian Rodeen. I'm 25 currently the warden of the Clements Unit in Amarillo, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 191 1 Texas. Also, recently this week, I did receive the -- 2 effective as the Region 3 director. I have twenty-six 3 years with the system. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Congratulations. How 5 long have you been the warden at Clements? 6 WARDEN RODEEN: Since August of '06. 7 WARDEN BLACK: I'm Octavious Black. I'm 8 the senior warden at the Mountain View Unit. I've been 9 with the Agency for twenty-three years and I've been at 10 the Mountain View Unit since May of 2005. 11 MS. ELLIS: Warden Black, I would like to 12 ask you: Do you think there are differences in the 13 dynamics of sexual abuse among female populations 14 compared to males and, if so, how? 15 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, ma'am, I do. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Could you slide that 17 closer to her? Does it reach? Thank you so much. 18 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, ma'am, I do. When I 19 first started with TDC, I worked with male offenders 20 and I worked with female offenders. When I was 21 promoted to warden, I notice that female offenders have 22 a tendency to create families, relationships that the 23 male offenders usually don't, and their version of 24 sexual assault and sexual assault relationships are 25 different than what they may be on the male unit. I Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 192 1 think there is a big difference. 2 MS. ELLIS: This tendency to have 3 relationships paramount within the developments there, 4 what do you do to help the offenders to develop healthy 5 relationships? 6 WARDEN BLACK: Well, I think the Peer 7 Education Program is a big part of that because some 8 offenders, depending on their environment that they 9 lived in, the way they were raised, they're not too 10 sure of what is right and wrong when it comes to sexual 11 relationships and it teaches them what is a good, 12 healthy relationship and what isn't. And then there 13 have been times where they've been in relationships for 14 a period of time where all of a sudden going through 15 peer education they realize they're doing something 16 they shouldn't. And we just try to emphasize the fact 17 what is accepted, what's not accepted, and the free 18 world is different than what's accepted in prison. And 19 just to try to make sure that they understand what the 20 rules are. 21 MS. ELLIS: Are you comfortable with your 22 sexual assault training for your staff? 23 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, ma'am, I am. I'm 24 sure there's always room for improvement. What we're 25 doing right now is certainly a lot more than what we Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 193 1 were doing when I was a correctional officer when I 2 first started. 3 MS. ELLIS: Do you think that the 4 improvement may account for some of the improvement 5 that you see? Do you think that the training 6 accomplished some of the improvement that you see? 7 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, I do. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Williams, the Panel's 9 provided with synopses of allegations of 10 inmate-on-inmate sexual assaults during 2006. 11 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Have you had a chance to 13 review those synopses or any other files about that 14 subject? 15 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. I have 16 looked at them. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. There are a total 18 of fifty-one allegations of inmate-on-inmate sexual 19 assault just in calendar 2006; that averages one a week 20 almost. So, we're not talking about the anonymous 21 survey. We're just talking about the actual records 22 from the Department. 23 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Why do you think there's 25 so many alleged assaults going on there? Are they just Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 194 1 more creative than -- and too much time on their hands 2 and just prowl on these things or just -- or what? 3 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Well, first of all, I 4 believe that we educate our offenders quite well from 5 the moment that they get to the intake facilities to -- 6 take some to the Allred Unit or one of these that's 7 here today. I think that we educate very well, and I 8 feel like with that many reports, that they feel that 9 they reported that something could possibly be done. I 10 feel that if they didn't feel like that if they could 11 have report it, then they would be quiet about it and 12 sometimes we wouldn't know things. So, actually, it is 13 a large amount of reports, but it could have a silver 14 lining to it -- they felt like the administration has 15 to look into it, which we did in these cases. 16 MR. McFARLAND: So you consider it kind 17 of a badge of honor that you have so many sexual 18 assaults. 19 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I didn't say that. I 20 said I felt like the inmates possibly could feel that 21 they could report this to the administration, that 22 something would get done about it and it would be 23 looked at. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. I have -- That's 25 one plausible explanation. Do you have some idea of Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 195 1 why they'd have so much to report on? I realize you're 2 saying, "Well, at least they feel free to report." Do 3 you think they're telling the truth? 4 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Possibly in some cases. 5 I can't tell you on each particular case. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. 7 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Some maybe not. Some 8 cases, I would say that they could possibly not be 9 telling the truth. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And we don't have 11 time to go through all fifty-one incidents, routine 12 pages of these synopses, but assume for a moment that 13 I'm right in saying that about 90 percent of them 14 there's no rape kit involved, and usually it says "no 15 forensic exam" or "no rape kit due to lapse of time." 16 Do you encourage and expect your medical staff to 17 administer the sexual assault examinations, as 18 Ms. Blount testified, as the normal course of action in 19 the Department? 20 WARDEN WILLIAMS: We take all -- All of 21 our forensic exams are done at Wichita Falls. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, so you ship them all 23 out. 24 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Well, we take them to 25 the hospital. After we contact the OIG, the first Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 196 1 exam's done, then it goes to OIG. 2 MR. McFARLAND: All right. So if a -- If 3 it indicate that there was no forensic exam, it's 4 talking about what was done or not done at the Wichita 5 Falls ER, not your facility. Is that right? 6 WARDEN WILLIAMS: If I'm understanding 7 you correctly, once we're notified of an instance, we 8 contact OIG and we give them the information provided 9 to us. They tell us whether or not a forensic exam 10 needs to be done or if it meets the timeline. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, let me just 12 take -- Let's just take the very first one, then, 13 January 6, 2006, EAC No. 00247-01-06, which is the 14 date. 15 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Who's the inmate? 16 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I'm not going to 17 mention the inmate because your counsel asked me to not 18 name names, but it's the only allegation in your -- on 19 January 6 of 2006. You see it there? It alleged he 20 was forced to perform oral sex on three offenders. 21 Stated the three offenders entered the cell, threatened 22 to beat him up, believe he was a snitch, no injuries 23 noted except the injuries from his self-mutilation. 24 Mentioned the names of an OIG officer or investigator 25 being notified, and then the next sentence says, "No Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 197 1 rape kit conducted." Does that mean that no rape kit 2 was conducted at Allred or none at Allred or the 3 Wichita Falls? 4 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Allred or the Wichita 5 Falls facility. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Do you have 7 information in your files about these fifty-one sexual 8 assaults in '06 about what happened to the suspects, if 9 anything? 10 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I have some notes here, 11 yes, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. For example, on 13 that one we just talked about, what happened to the 14 perpetrator? I notice the SCC approved a unit transfer 15 for the victim to the Boyd Unit. What happened to the 16 perpetrator? 17 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Unfortunately my table 18 of contents is broke down by name and TDCJ numbers, so 19 if I could get a name or a TCJ -- 20 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Why don't I 21 just show it to you -- 22 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Okay. 23 MR. McFARLAND: -- and we won't put it on 24 the record. It's the first one. 25 MS. HOWELL: I'm going to give the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 198 1 witness the same document which you're referring so you 2 don't have to do this dance every time. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you. 4 WARDEN WILLIAMS: It doesn't say what 5 happened to -- here, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry? 7 WARDEN WILLIAMS: It doesn't say. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 9 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I can't tell you 'cause 10 it doesn't say right here. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, but you had some 12 notes or something. Do you have any information 13 about -- I know it doesn't say anything on my -- Do you 14 have any other information about what happened to the 15 perpetrator? 16 WARDEN WILLIAMS: The victim's 17 transferred. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 19 WARDEN WILLIAMS: No, sir. I do not at 20 this time. 21 MR. McFARLAND: There were three 22 offenders and it doesn't say anything about what 23 happened to them, the three suspects or assailants. 24 WARDEN WILLIAMS: No, sir. I have no 25 information. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 199 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Do you have 2 information about any -- what the consequences for any 3 of the perpetrators/suspects in any of these fifty-one 4 incidences? 5 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Possibly. I'd have to 6 look and see on the paper. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Just find one because 8 I'd -- Rather than fishing through fifty-one, just find 9 me the first one you can find that you can tell me what 10 happened to that perpetrator. 11 WARDEN WILLIAMS: It'll take me a minute. 12 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry? 13 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I said it'll take me a 14 minute. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. Take your time and 16 I think Ms. Ellis -- 17 MS. ELLIS: Yes. Ms. Black, I'd like to 18 come back to you. In the investigations provided to 19 the Panel, there was no documentation of the 20 involvement from a victim representative. How often, 21 in your experience, does a victim representative become 22 involved in investigations? 23 WARDEN BLACK: The ones that we are 24 required to call Office of the Attorney General to 25 investigate. We always offer that to the offender -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 200 1 to the victim. I'm not sure why it's not documented, 2 but we usually have one every time. 3 MS. ELLIS: I see. Well, we failed to 4 receive that, so it's your statement, then, that each 5 time you are required to make that contact and that it 6 does happen. 7 WARDEN BLACK: I'm saying that we 8 usually -- we offer it to them. 9 MS. ELLIS: I see. I see. The BJS data 10 reports that a high number of incidents in your 11 facility involve injury. How do you respond to this? 12 WARDEN BLACK: I wasn't familiar with 13 that. I wasn't familiar with having a high number of 14 injuries. 15 MS. ELLIS: That's the data that we've 16 received. The woman inmate is referred to Mental 17 Health in your facility and multiple allegations have 18 occurred. Do you receive any feedback from the staff 19 regarding the offender's mental health status? 20 WARDEN BLACK: Usually what happens is 21 someone from the Psychiatric Unit will come and talk to 22 me or I'll go and talk to them and they'll tell me what 23 they think happened compared to their history, what 24 they normally are talking about when they go and see 25 them, especially if they're on the case load. There's Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 201 1 times where they'll tell me they believe that the 2 offender is telling the truth based on what they know 3 of that offender. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Williams, have you 5 found any? 6 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I found one here 7 involving inmate -- he had No. 50230702. 8 MR. McFARLAND: What page on that 9 document? 10 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I have to 11 cross-reference to this document. On an instance like 12 that, our Safe Prisons coordinator tracks what happens 13 to these -- victim. Any circumstances involving an 14 offender assault, the Safe Prisons office actually 15 tracks that. I don't have the document here with me. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Which officer? 17 I'm sorry. 18 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Safe Prisons 19 coordinator. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And who is the -- 21 Who was the Safe Prison coordinator at Allred in '06? 22 WARDEN WILLIAMS: McGraph. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Is he or she still there? 24 WARDEN WILLIAMS: He's since been moved 25 to STG. It's Lisa James now. I apologize. I simply Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 202 1 didn't -- I overlooked that part of it. I brought what 2 we did with the victim. It's my apology. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Would the Department be 4 willing to provide us with a supplement to this 5 document that we will just supplement it with 6 information about what happened, if anything, to the 7 perpetrator? 8 MS. HOWELL: To the perpetrator? 9 MR. McFARLAND: Yes. 10 MS. HOWELL: Okay. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you very much. 12 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I apologize again, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Williams, are gangs 14 an issue at Allred? 15 WARDEN WILLIAMS: We have gangs at 16 Allred, yes, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Do they affect the number 18 of sexual assaults that go on there, you think? 19 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Do they affect the 20 number of sexual assaults? 21 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Is that a 22 complicated factor? 23 WARDEN WILLIAMS: All sexual assaults are 24 not done by gang members, but, yes, gang members do 25 participate in sexual assaults. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 203 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. For example, on 2 Page 4 of that document, the third case down -- This is 3 at Allred, obviously. It's 04769-0406. 4 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Okay. 5 MR. McFARLAND: And there's a reference 6 there, "STG, Crips." You have -- Do Crips have a 7 presence there at Allred? 8 WARDEN WILLIAMS: We have Crip members on 9 our unit, yes, sir. 10 MR. McFARLAND: And then similarly on the 11 next page, EAC No. 05876-05-06, mentions another STG, 12 the Mexican Mafia. Is that also present, any members 13 there? 14 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. Give me that 15 number again, sir. 16 MR. McFARLAND: It's on the bottom of 17 Page 5 and it's 05876. 18 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Allegation that the 20 offender was a member of the Mexican Mafia, began 21 forcing him to perform oral sex in exchange for 22 protection. Have you ever heard of that kind of 23 activity going on at Allred? 24 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I have not heard of 25 this particular case at Allred, sir, but I'm sure Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 204 1 instances of that have happened in the past. 2 MR. McFARLAND: And why are you sure that 3 that's happened? Have you heard that gangs are 4 extorting as protection/money sort of sexual favors? 5 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I probably put it the 6 wrong way to you. I'm not sure. It possibly could 7 happen. I used the wrong word. I should not have used 8 "sure," possibly could happen. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Have you ever 10 heard that that was happening? 11 WARDEN WILLIAMS: No, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Then on Page 6 -- On the 13 top of Page 6 -- and don't worry. I'm not going to go 14 through all fifty-one of these, just a couple of them 15 that I'm going to ask. The Crips are mentioned there 16 and it says they alleged to the UCC that members of the 17 Crips have been sexually assaulting him. Alleged that 18 someone entered the cell and the Crips would kill him 19 if he would not perform oral sex and another individual 20 had threatened him. Then it says, "Assaults also 21 allegedly occurred on May 27 and May 28 by other 22 offenders. No evidence could be collected due to the 23 assaults being ORA." What does that mean? Do you 24 know? And if any of the previously-sworn witnesses in 25 the audience know what that stands for, it would be Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 205 1 helpful. You know what, I bet it's a typo. They 2 dropped the "L" and the assault's being "oral." 3 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Probably so because I 4 couldn't place an "ORA." 5 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. There are a lot of 6 acronyms, but I don't think this one is meant to be. 7 Now, that raises an issue in point because Ms. Blount 8 said yesterday that the sexual assault examination kit 9 should be used whether there was an allegation of oral 10 sex or anal sex, and this synopsis is saying that no 11 evidence could be collected due to the assaults being 12 oral. This is one of the few that doesn't say no 13 forensic exam because due to lapse of time. 14 The reason why one wasn't done here 15 evidently is because it was an allegation of repeated 16 oral sex. Assuming I'm right about the missing "L" 17 here and that's what we're talking about, is it your 18 understanding that Allred -- that rape kits should be 19 done on all sexual assaults regardless of whether it's 20 oral or anal or anything else? Is that your 21 understanding, you know, within the ninety-six hours. 22 WARDEN WILLIAMS: They're supposed to be 23 done within ninety-six hours. I can't explain why one 24 wasn't done there or why it wasn't suggested by OIG. I 25 don't have the rest of the facts to report, sir. It Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 206 1 may have. I don't know. 2 MR. McFARLAND: The very next one -- Look 3 at the very next one. Offender alleged he was forced 4 to perform oral sex on another offender in shower; also 5 alleged that this offender hit him twice in the face, 6 attempted to force him to perform oral sex. That was a 7 different offender. He refused to walk to the showers 8 so offender -- a third -- No, the second offender left 9 him alone. Two small abrasions to this 10 offender's -- victim's face were noted. OIG was 11 notified. No rape kit, is what it says. Do you have 12 any information as to why a rape kit wasn't done on 13 those allegations of oral sex? 14 WARDEN WILLIAMS: No, sir. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Then turning to Page 11 16 of that document, the top of the page, 12870-11-06. 17 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 18 MR. McFARLAND: This is part of the 19 Allred allegations, but this allegation is that he was 20 physically assaulted in the Coffield Unit in July of 21 2005, so this would be Mr. Thompson's -- Mr. Thompson, 22 you would have been just there a month earlier. Is 23 that right? 24 WARDEN THOMPSON: That's correct. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And a review of the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 207 1 offender's folder indicated he was physically assaulted 2 in July of '05, and other offenders indicated he was in 3 a homosexual relationship with this other offender who 4 was listed as the assailant; allegedly owed money to 5 members of the Bambino Warriors. Warden, is that 6 another STG? 7 WARDEN THOMPSON: It is, yes, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: The offender allegedly 9 belonged to this click. That's what they say. And the 10 report indicated he was ordered to assault offender -- 11 this other offender to prove that he was not involved 12 in a homosexual relationship with him. Mr. Thompson, 13 do you have any information or recollection of this 14 particular event, realizing that it wasn't evidently 15 reported until after he'd been sent over to Warden -- 16 WARDEN THOMPSON: This is the first time 17 I read this. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Do you ever have 19 occasion, Warden Thompson, to look at the lists that 20 we've heard about of sexual predators and victims? 21 WARDEN THOMPSON: Yes, I have. 22 MR. McFARLAND: How often do you have a 23 chance to look at that? 24 WARDEN THOMPSON: Well, as often as I 25 like obviously, but when you're looking at what's going Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 208 1 on in your unit and you see that you have some things 2 happening, that'd be a good time. Our Safe Prisons 3 Investigative Team meets once a month. I go to that 4 meeting and I'll look at it; just as often as you'd 5 like. 6 MR. McFARLAND: How often do you do it? 7 WARDEN THOMPSON: I'd say once a month. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And what do you do with 9 that information? 10 WARDEN THOMPSON: First of all, make sure 11 we have it; make sure we're doing it; make sure we're 12 providing the list to the security supervisors so 13 they'll have that to use and monitoring. That's -- My 14 main goal is to make sure that that disk is there and 15 that we're adding to it and it's available. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And anything else 17 you do with it other than making sure it's there and 18 it's accurate? Does that affect your decision-making 19 or anybody else's? 20 WARDEN THOMPSON: It could. It could. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Does it? 22 WARDEN THOMPSON: Sure. If you're making 23 a housing change and it involves that particular 24 offender, that might be something that you'd want to 25 know. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 209 1 MR. McFARLAND: It might be something? 2 WARDEN THOMPSON: Well, it would be. I'm 3 just talking hypothetical here. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 5 WARDEN THOMPSON: That that would be 6 something that you'd want to know. If you had 7 allegations from somebody and his name come up more 8 than once, his name's on that list, that would add more 9 credence to him being there because, you know, the 10 confirmed predators we've taken disciplinary action on 11 them and downgraded them to a lower custody. The one 12 that really works hard is the ones you're trying to 13 prove are predators. If you know he's a predator and 14 he's proven it and you discipline him for it and -- you 15 pretty much have him placed in an area close to 16 supervision. I'm really concerned about those that 17 might be out there in the lower custodies that have a 18 little more freedom of movement. 19 MR. McFARLAND: You concerned about those 20 predators who might get into safekeeping? 21 WARDEN THOMPSON: Absolutely. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Why is that? 23 WARDEN THOMPSON: Well, I don't have 24 safekeeping at Coffield now. It's been several years 25 since I had safekeeping, but the reason we have Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 210 1 safekeeping is to have a housing area where offenders 2 who are -- have shown that they just can't make it in 3 our regular general population. So if you have a 4 predator over there, there's a chance that he might 5 have manipulated the system to get over there to where 6 he would be in a situation where he could prey on these 7 people easier because he knows that's where we put the 8 weak group. 9 MR. McFARLAND: That's right. Why 10 haven't you had any safekeeping for a couple of years? 11 WARDEN THOMPSON: It was moved off of 12 Coffield. The mission changed at Coffield and the 13 safekeepings were all moved to the new 2250-type design 14 because you're able to manage smaller groups at a time. 15 Coffield was built in 1965, so it's relatively old and 16 our cell blocks are, you know, 168, four rows high and 17 you just have a larger number of group movement in the 18 general population, so to close -- You know, it's 19 easier to manage with smaller numbers and watch them 20 closer because they have solid doors there, also. 21 MR. McFARLAND: At Coffield? 22 WARDEN THOMPSON: No, on the 2250. 23 MR. McFARLAND: In the 2250. 24 WARDEN THOMPSON: Right. 25 MR. McFARLAND: What kind of doors do you Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 211 1 have at Coffield? 2 WARDEN THOMPSON: We've got the old bar 3 doors. It's actually -- 4 MR. McFARLAND: That increases 5 visibility, doesn't it, though? 6 WARDEN THOMPSON: It does inside the 7 cell. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. It also subjects 9 your officers to getting urine and feces thrown on them 10 and all manner of other junk. 11 WARDEN THOMPSON: Absolutely. 12 MR. McFARLAND: And the 2250 design is a 13 dormitory design? 14 WARDEN THOMPSON: No, sir. It's cell 15 blocks, but it's designed -- 16 MR. McFARLAND: Better line of sight? 17 WARDEN THOMPSON: It's got, you know, 18 like 432 to a pod. I mean, to a -- I guess it's called 19 "pods," isn't it? And then you got three pods to that 20 area and that number's 144 each, and then I think that 21 144 breaks down to three areas of forty-eight and you 22 can shut those off. And you could actually manage 23 these forty-eight in that one area and it makes it a 24 whole lot easier to watch them as opposed to an older 25 unit where you got 170. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 212 1 MR. McFARLAND: Is a unit transfer a pain 2 in the neck for a warden? 3 WARDEN THOMPSON: No. 4 MR. McFARLAND: So is it a problem for 5 you to have to send all your safekeeping people out to 6 a different unit? 7 WARDEN THOMPSON: No. We have transient 8 housing where if we have one who feels like they need 9 safekeeping, we can place them in a single-cell until 10 that process works and then they'll be transferred. 11 MR. McFARLAND: So there's no 12 disincentive for you to put somebody in safekeeping. 13 It's not like it's a big headache or -- 14 WARDEN THOMPSON: Not at all. 15 MR. McFARLAND: The fact you don't have 16 safekeeping there doesn't make it any less or more 17 likely you're going to put somebody in safekeeping. 18 WARDEN THOMPSON: Not at all. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 20 MS. ELLIS: Warden Black, I'd like to 21 come back and ask you again what training and guidance 22 do you provide for males -- 23 WARDEN BLACK: For males working at 24 Mountain View? 25 MS. ELLIS: Yes. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 213 1 WARDEN BLACK: Besides the training that 2 they get at pre-service and then in-service every year 3 when they go back. Recently we've started the 4 gender-specific training for staff that work with 5 female offenders. Right now, that training's going on 6 for every new officer for sixteen hours when they're 7 assigned to the unit, but after we slow down a little 8 bit with new officers, we're going to try to 9 incorporate that with the staff that's already existing 10 on the units before we started the training. 11 MS. ELLIS: Do men work in the housing 12 units? 13 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, ma'am. 14 MS. ELLIS: On all of the shifts? 15 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, ma'am. 16 MS. ELLIS: What are you doing to address 17 that sexual misconduct in your facility? 18 WARDEN BLACK: To address it? 19 MS. ELLIS: Yes. 20 WARDEN BLACK: Well, we're trying to do 21 training, just -- probably more than once a week -- is, 22 at least twice a week on every shift, just pulling out 23 the policy, just going through certain areas, just to 24 sit there with the lieutenants and sergeants with their 25 officers to go over the whole policy and let them ask Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 214 1 questions. When they have questions, they can stop and 2 talk to supervisors or myself or the admin staff at any 3 time; just trying to do ongoing training. 4 MS. ELLIS: What kind of programs do you 5 have for the female offenders, special programs? 6 WARDEN BLACK: Well, we have anger 7 management classes. We have changes classes, classes 8 to help them when they are released, parenting. We 9 have several vocational courses for them to take to 10 help them ensure being financially stable when they're 11 released. We used to have computer recovery. That's 12 since moved to another facility, but we do have a 13 Braille program that they can participate in so they 14 can ensure jobs when they get out. 15 MS. ELLIS: Are you involved with any 16 community-based organizations, victim advocacy groups, 17 in working with the females? 18 WARDEN BLACK: At Mountain View right 19 now, no, we're not. 20 MS. ELLIS: Thank you. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Do the -- Is anyone from 22 OIG still here? I don't see Mr. Moriarty. Maybe one 23 of the wardens can tell me. These synopses of 24 inmate-on-inmate sexual assaults that we were talking 25 about with Warden Williams, in addition to not having Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 215 1 any information about what happened to perpetrators, 2 there's no reference to the date of the incident, so if 3 this is the date that it was reported on all of those 4 pages -- so there's no way of knowing -- 5 MS. HOWELL: Sir, if you look at the 6 heading of each listing on there, it tells you the date 7 that it was actually reported -- 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, yeah. 9 MS. HOWELL: -- and then within the body 10 of the -- within the text below it, in most cases it's 11 going to tell you. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Not on mine. 13 MS. HOWELL: Okay. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Under -- 15 MS. HOWELL: We have -- The best 16 information we have is within the text right there. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Is that right? 18 MS. HOWELL: Yes, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: So, Counsel, are you 20 saying that you don't have information about when the 21 reported date -- the date of the incident occurred on 22 any of these? 23 MS. HOWELL: On a number of those, I'm 24 seeing the dates. I'm a little bit confused as to what 25 you're referring. Sometimes the date is no more Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 216 1 certain than, perhaps, July 2006. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, I'm looking 3 at the Coffield summary with fourteen inmate-on-inmate 4 sexual assaults in 2006, three pages of synopses. And 5 the first one, where would I find any -- when the 6 incident allegedly happened? 7 WARDEN BLACK: These are the synopses 8 from the EAC Report, and that's usually not in the EAC 9 Report. It usually just pulls the date that we 10 reported it to the -- 11 MS. HOWELL: I have -- Sir, I have one of 12 the People's witnesses -- or guests that I have over 13 here is the one in charge of the EAC database and she 14 tells me that we might be able to pull some more data 15 out of that database and supply to you along with the 16 data we've promised. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Great. Okay. So for the 18 record, the Panel's asking for the date of incident and 19 the consequences for the perpetrators of 20 inmate-on-inmate sexual assaults during 2006 at all of 21 the five units, okay, because with respect to the date 22 of incident, it's impossible for us to tell how much 23 lapse in time there was between the incident and the 24 report and the vast majority of them saying "no rape 25 kit due to lapse of time," so it's not self-evident how Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 217 1 long that lapse was. Was it four days or four years? 2 Does anyone else -- Warden Rodeen, do you have some 3 information about dates of incidents on any of these? 4 WARDEN RODEEN: I did bring some 5 information and some notes, if you want to specifically 6 discuss a certain EAC. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Turn the 8 microphone. 9 WARDEN RODEEN: I might have that 10 information. I did bring some with me on these 11 incidents. 12 MR. McFARLAND: All right. I'll grab the 13 Clements. There are nineteen reports in 2006 of 14 inmate-on-inmate assault in your facility. How about, 15 for example, on Page 2 of -- Do you have -- 16 WARDEN RODEEN: Yes, sir. I have it with 17 me. 18 MR. McFARLAND: You have the synopsis 19 that we -- 20 WARDEN RODEEN: Yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: On Page 2, EAC 22 No. 02621-03-06, you see it indicates "no rape kit due 23 to time lapse." Is there -- Do you have any 24 information as to when that date -- alleged incident 25 occurred? The inmate woke up to find a cellmate was Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 218 1 touching his rectal area. 2 WARDEN RODEEN: Yes. On that particular 3 incident -- Let me make sure I match up the EAC number. 4 Yes. On that -- He actually reported that to a 5 lieutenant on the shift, but he said that the incident 6 occurred on July 22nd, 2004. That was actually almost 7 a year and a half. 8 MR. McFARLAND: That would be quite a 9 time lapse. 10 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Mr. McFarland, I have 11 some dates on the ones we talked about, date it 12 occurred, date investigation again. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Where are you 14 pulling that information? 15 WARDEN WILLIAMS: All right. Go to EAC 16 I-06234 -- 06234-0606. 17 MR. McFARLAND: What page is it on? 18 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Top of Page 6 of 13 -- 19 top of Page 6; one of the questions we were questioned 20 about. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 22 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I have date occurred 23 was 6-1-2006, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Same day as it was 25 reported. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 219 1 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 2 MR. McFARLAND: And, yet, it says, "no 3 evidence could be collected due to the assaults being 4 oral." 5 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Well, I have some notes 6 on the bottom that also -- I found out also 'cause the 7 question safekeeping to the SCC. The SCC denied 8 transfer offender on 6/2006. Closed by OIG. 9 "Inability to identify suspect, lack of evidence or 10 witness, victim's refusal to cooperate." 8/1/06 is 11 when the OIG closed it. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Does it say anything 13 about the inmate refusing a rape kit? 14 WARDEN WILLIAMS: It says "victim's 15 refusal to cooperate." All the notes I got from OIG in 16 my office, from OIG at Allred, because I talk to OIG 17 about these particular cases to see if they were 18 opened, if they closed, what the status of them were. 19 MR. McFARLAND: This is 06234-0606? 20 WARDEN WILLIAMS: 06234-060-06. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. The Crips forcing 22 this guy to do the oral sex. 23 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Unknown black offender 24 named "Spade" was actual -- 25 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 220 1 WARDEN WILLIAMS: That's another thing -- 2 MR. McFARLAND: So why -- If it was 3 because a lack of cooperation, according to your 4 records, why wouldn't this synopses say that no 5 evidence could be collected not because of lack of 6 cooperation, but the matter, quote, due to the assault 7 being oral? 8 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I can't answer that, 9 sir. I'm just answering what I talked to my OIG about 10 on the unit in reference to this particular case, if 11 it's still open/closed, what the notes were from high 12 point to low points of it were. 13 MR. McFARLAND: All right. So it was -- 14 That particular one was certainly not late -- reported 15 the same day. Do you have any other dates of incident 16 on any of the other -- 17 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. If you go to 18 the next one down -- 19 MR. McFARLAND: No rape kit. 20 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Let me read this for a 21 minute. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 23 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I have notes of what 24 happened. Transferred approved on 6/25/06. Potential 25 victim added to Screen 7, per SCC. No charges by OIG. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 221 1 Closed 1-5-2007. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Is there a date of 3 incident? 4 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Date of incident, 5 6-4-2006, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Same day as it was 7 reported. 8 WARDEN WILLIAMS: UCC date, 6-8-2006. 9 MR. McFARLAND: No rape kit, though, was 10 reported the same day. 11 WARDEN RODEEN: Well, if I may interject 12 just for a second. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Certainly. 14 WARDEN RODEEN: Even though this is not 15 my particular case, sometimes I don't have the report 16 in front of me, but when it's oral, there's also some 17 questions involved in there that the OIG might ask like 18 since this time of reporting, how long -- could it be 19 six or seven hours? Have you brushed your teeth? Have 20 you taken a shower? Have you changed your clothes? 21 Have you used mouthwash? There might be other reasons 22 that the investigators have for making decisions that 23 the rape kit might not have been done on that 24 particular -- even though the incident was reported on 25 the exact same day, because there's still gotta be a Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 222 1 timeframe and we want the case to be done within 2 ninety-six hours. Of course, the offender has to 3 populate -- obviously force you to take it, but they do 4 things to jeopardize that. And like I said, I don't 5 have the evidence in this case, but that could possibly 6 be they destroyed the evidence. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, that's possible. 8 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Some of that 9 information's not shared with us from the OIG due to 10 the circumstances involved in it. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Ms. Blount, you're waving 12 your hand. Could you shed some light on that? 13 MS. BLOUNT: On the one report where it 14 had "ORA," sometimes in the medical what we use "ORA" 15 for is that the offender refusal was accepted. 16 WARDEN WILLIAMS: That might be "ORA" 17 instead of "oral" awhile ago. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 19 WARDEN WILLIAMS: That's jargon that we 20 don't normally look at. 21 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Well, that's 22 helpful. Thank you. Any other -- Well, anyway, we 23 don't want to take the time. You just provide the 24 dates of incidents and -- That would be helpful. Are 25 some of y'all more willing to approve unit transfers Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 223 1 than others? We explored with Warden Thompson that 2 it's not a pain-in-the-neck to do unit transfers. It's 3 just, for what it's worth, in reviewing all of these 4 inmate-on-inmate sexual assaults, some seem to approve 5 unit transfers more readily than others. I mean, 6 there's a pattern. It may not be anything significant, 7 but I'm just wondering, is that intentional? Is there 8 some of you that just assume not send the message to 9 your general population that if you make enough 10 trouble, file enough grievances, make up enough 11 stories, you'll get shipped out just like you wanted 12 to? 13 WARDEN RODEEN: No. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Any -- 15 WARDEN WILLIAMS: No. And I think some 16 of the -- I'm probably using the wrong word again. 17 Some of these request transfer -- We can request a 18 transfer from the SCC and if we feel it's a problem, 19 the SCC -- Again, we can -- sometimes through 20 warden/warden agreement on transfers -- and we have a 21 potential problem that might overstay his welcome 22 somewhere to send him somewhere else, but part of 23 Warden Rodeen said, no. It's not a problem to transfer 24 an offender. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Brown, do you have Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 224 1 male officers at your facility? 2 WARDEN BLACK: Yes. 3 MR. McFARLAND: And they are assigned to 4 residential units just like -- 5 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Any of the female 7 officers? 8 WARDEN BLACK: Yes. 9 MR. McFARLAND: I'm just looking at the 10 fourteen inmate-on-inmate sexual assault allegations in 11 '06 at Mountain View, and the second to last one, it's 12 14326-12-06, reported on December 9. You see that 13 there? 14 WARDEN BLACK: Yes. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. It says Hobby Unit 16 UCC denied request for protection due to Offender Blank 17 signing the waiver stating she no longer required 18 protection. Now, unless I have mistaken, I thought 19 that in the Unit Classification Procedure 10.01 on 20 Page 2, it indicates that an investigation of a sexual 21 assault continues even if the waiver is signed by the 22 offender. 23 WARDEN BLACK: This is correct. 24 MR. McFARLAND: This is just talking 25 about the request for protection and not -- That Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 225 1 doesn't necessarily mean that stopped the 2 investigation. Is that right? 3 WARDEN BLACK: I would assume that that's 4 correct. This offender was on the Mountain View Unit 5 for a crisis management observation and we initiated 6 the investigation and the offender went to the UCC 7 after she was returned to her unit assignment -- 8 MR. McFARLAND: So crisis observation is 9 suicidal tendencies? 10 WARDEN BLACK: Sometimes, yes. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Do you remember this 12 person? 13 WARDEN BLACK: No. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Is there -- If an inmate 15 has been proven to have been a liar about sexual 16 assault by another inmate, do you think that they 17 become more likely to actually become a victim because 18 the predator knows that her -- she's cried wolf before 19 and so nobody's going to believe her? 20 WARDEN BLACK: No, sir. I don't -- We 21 don't release that information out to other offenders, 22 if that offender -- 23 MR. McFARLAND: Well, is there any secret 24 in a prison? I mean, doesn't -- 25 WARDEN BLACK: Well, what I was going to Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 226 1 say is that we don't release that information to the 2 other offenders where she's going to go live that she 3 lied. Now, she may go and tell them that, but I don't 4 think that that particularly flags her to other 5 offenders that she's a potential predator -- I mean, 6 victim that could be victimized. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Now, I'm just wondering. 8 You say on Page 3, the same offender is listed on two 9 different incidents one day apart and in both cases the 10 offender admitted to the OIG that she lied. 11 WARDEN BLACK: Are you speaking of 12 Offender Hudson? 13 MR. McFARLAND: I'm not supposed to 14 mention names. We're talking about -- 15 WARDEN BLACK: No. 1 and No. 2? 16 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, on September 25 and 17 September 26. 18 WARDEN BLACK: That offender did file a 19 number of offender protection requests, and towards the 20 end before she did get a transfer, she did tell me that 21 she was lying over and over again to get a unit 22 transfer. She wanted to be single-celled alone. She 23 didn't want to be housed with black offenders in the 24 building, and she just wanted to have her own cell and 25 she wanted to be assigned to an MROP facility. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 227 1 MR. McFARLAND: A what? 2 WARDEN BLACK: MROP facility at 3 Hackberry. That's where she wanted to go. 4 MR. McFARLAND: That's the name of a 5 unit? 6 WARDEN BLACK: Yes. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 8 WARDEN RODEEN: It's a Mentally Retarded 9 Offender Program. 10 WARDEN BLACK: She requested to be 11 transferred there. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Was she classified -- We 13 talked about the classifications earlier "CV," "CI" and 14 "CN." Was she classified as being mentally challenged? 15 WARDEN BLACK: No. 16 MR. McFARLAND: I guess she wanted into 17 that program? 18 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, sir. She had taken 19 that test before, but she did not meet that criteria. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well -- and I 21 notice that if you look at Page 2, the same offender 22 has two others. 23 WARDEN BLACK: Yes. 24 MR. McFARLAND: And interestingly 25 involved the same predator or alleged predator, so I Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 228 1 guess you see that one, 06208 and 10416, same accused 2 and same accuser. 3 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, sir, I've seen it. 4 MR. McFARLAND: So I guess just what I'm 5 wondering is, if she's accusing, you know, inmates 6 right and left because she's trying to get some 7 protection, or she's trying to get into a program or 8 single-cell, do you have any concern that, in fact, she 9 will become a victim because she's lied so many times 10 and brought such a, you know, serial number of filings 11 that she's never going to be believed so she actually 12 becomes a victim? Has that been your experience? Do 13 you share any concern -- 14 WARDEN BLACK: With this particular 15 offender, I was concerned that she had filed several 16 allegations against several other offenders. I know 17 that in walking the cell block where she lived, they 18 were upset with her, angered with her, and I did not 19 assign her to a cell by herself as far as her needing 20 to be single-cell, but she did receive a single-cell 21 because there was one vacant. I did put her in one. 22 MR. McFARLAND: She did get into a 23 single-cell? 24 WARDEN BLACK: I did put her in a 25 single-cell for a time before she was transferred off Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 229 1 the facility. 2 MR. McFARLAND: That's not noted -- Not 3 that this couldn't happen, but, of course, I assume it 4 did. But in all of the four instances involving this 5 offender, it says she did not meet the criteria to meet 6 single-cell and will not be flagged to not live with 7 black offenders. She was charged and found guilty of 8 Level 2, Code 29, and I assume that mean false 9 allegations? 10 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, sir. 11 MR. McFARLAND: So eventually she did 12 become qualified for single-cell? 13 WARDEN BLACK: If I -- No, sir. She did 14 not qualify for it. There was one open and I placed 15 her in it. 16 MR. McFARLAND: You gave -- 17 WARDEN BLACK: I did not put single-cell 18 housing on her computer records or travel card or 19 anything of that nature like we would normally if it 20 was approved and she met the criteria. We had one 21 vacant and I did place her in it. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. I wanted to ask 23 about staff-on-inmate. We talked about 24 inmate-on-inmate. And with, I think, Moriarty, we went 25 over this case information which has information about Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 230 1 all four of your units but not the Estelle Unit, and 2 I -- As you know, Mr. Moriarty wasn't -- didn't have 3 particular information about this, so I thought I'd ask 4 you if you remembered what happened in these various 5 cases, but I don't want to take the time to go through 6 all of them. 7 Let me just take a couple from each of 8 them and ask what you know or what you -- what 9 information you might be able to provide supplemental 10 the same way we're asking for more information on the 11 inmate-on-inmate assaults. Warden Rodeen, at Clements, 12 there is an allegation in Case 2006-0569. It says that 13 OIG received a letter addressed to the warden on 14 March 15. Now, you would not have been there for 15 another five months. Correct. 16 WARDEN RODEEN: That is correct. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So that's not 18 going to be very useful. All right. Let's try -- On 19 2006-2348, this is dated -- This is an offender 20 grievance dated November 6, 2006, so you would have 21 been warden at that time. Right? 22 WARDEN RODEEN: That's correct. 23 MR. McFARLAND: And the offender alleges 24 that an officer entered his cell, stuck her -- naming 25 the officer -- in other words a female -- stuck her Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 231 1 hand down the front of his boxer shorts and masturbated 2 him. Do you know what was done, if anything, to the 3 suspect? You know anything about this? 4 WARDEN RODEEN: No. I don't have any 5 reports or anything in front of me other than what was 6 talked about earlier. 7 MR. McFARLAND: I'm asking the same of 8 offender -- I'm sorry. Warden Black, I wanted to ask 9 about offender alleged -- Case No. 2006-2373, which was 10 no charge, and it says that the offender alleged that 11 she placed her mouth on female officer's breast, 12 touched her vagina with her hand, and alleged that she 13 and this officer had been involved in a personal 14 relationship since March of 2006 that involved sexual 15 contact and personal sexually explicit conversations. 16 Are you aware of such allegation at your unit? 17 WARDEN BLACK: I was not familiar with 18 that particular case. 19 MR. McFARLAND: You were warden since May 20 of '05. Is that right? 21 WARDEN BLACK: Yes. 22 MR. McFARLAND: So this happened on your 23 watch. Is it your testimony this is the first time 24 you've heard that there was an allegation against an 25 officer through such contact? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 232 1 WARDEN BLACK: No. I'm saying that since 2 I've been at Mountain View, I did not remember a case 3 the way you described it. 4 MR. McFARLAND: And then the next one, 5 2006-2374, the offender -- This is also at Mountain 6 View -- alleged that she and another officer kissed 7 each other and she performed oral sex on that officer. 8 That resulted in an arrest and a sentence. You 9 remember that event? 10 WARDEN BLACK: I remember that case. I 11 did not know that he was arrested or sentenced. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Would that be helpful 13 information for you to have in your job as a warden? 14 Would you like to have that kind of information about 15 what happens to members of your staff when they commit 16 a felony? 17 WARDEN BLACK: No, sir. I don't think 18 it'd be helpful for me in my every-day operations. At 19 that point they don't work -- They're not on my unit. 20 They're not a potential threat to my offenders or staff 21 anymore. I don't think that would help me. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Wouldn't you want to let 23 the rest of your staff know that there's some serious 24 implications to messing like this? 25 WARDEN BLACK: I always believe that Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 233 1 we're letting them know that when we're training them, 2 it's against the law and it's against the rules. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Wouldn't it be more 4 effective if one of your own, you can actually say, 5 "You remember Officer So-and-So? Well, he's got twelve 6 months deferred prosecution and a $4,000 fine and he's 7 no longer with the Department, so this Department and 8 Mr. Livingston really do mean it when we say zero 9 tolerance. This is not something to sleep through, 10 folks. This can ruin your whole day"? Would you find 11 that helpful? 12 WARDEN BLACK: I guess I never thought of 13 it that way. I just thought that when we tell them 14 that's what we mean, that's what we mean. When we get 15 those allegations, we investigate them. If we find 16 them to be true, we do what we're supposed to do, to 17 make sure they're no longer working for the Agency and 18 OIG makes sure that the information gets to the 19 prosecutor. 20 MR. McFARLAND: And, Warden Thompson, at 21 your unit -- You were here when we discussed with the 22 previous panel the investigation of 2006-2459? 23 WARDEN THOMPSON: Was that at Coffield? 24 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. This was the 25 case where there was information that a staff person Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 234 1 who was not a correctional officer was having a 2 relationship with an offender. She was interviewed, 3 admitted to having a sexual relationship with the 4 offender and we heard -- 5 WARDEN THOMPSON: What page are you on, 6 sir? 7 MR. McFARLAND: -- some clarification as 8 to what actually happened to her. Do you remember 9 this? 10 WARDEN THOMPSON: Which page was that on? 11 MR. McFARLAND: This was on Page 3 of the 12 summary document that I have. 13 WARDEN THOMPSON: Okay. 14 MR. McFARLAND: In the second -- On the 15 bottom, 2006-2459, prosecution refused, and the other 16 document that the OIG provided said "cleared by 17 exception." 18 WARDEN THOMPSON: Could you give me that 19 number one more time? 20 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 2006-2459 -- 21 2459. 22 WARDEN RODEEN: Are you referring to the 23 OIG documentation they -- 24 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 25 WARDEN RODEEN: We weren't supplied with Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 235 1 those sheets, so the numbers probably doesn't match. 2 We have the incident numbers that were supplied. 3 MR. McFARLAND: You have a different case 4 number, Counsel? 5 WARDEN RODEEN: OIG has their own case 6 system. Once they decide -- 7 WARDEN THOMPSON: Right. 8 WARDEN RODEEN: It doesn't match -- 9 WARDEN THOMPSON: I'm looking at the EAC 10 number and I think you're referring to an OIG number. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. I don't have a EAC 12 number for the staff misconduct. Counsel, sorry to 13 interrupt. Do you have a copy of this sexual 14 misconduct summaries that you gave us that you could 15 provide to Warden Thompson because he's referring to 16 EAC numbers and I don't have any EAC numbers on your 17 SOI assaults? 18 MS. HOWELL: You're looking at that -- 19 MR. McFARLAND: Yes. 20 MS. HOWELL: Okay. I'll get that for 21 you. 22 WARDEN THOMPSON: What date did that 23 happen? 24 MR. McFARLAND: It was in 2006. Let's 25 see. The date of the incident is listed as Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 236 1 November 6, 2006, so this is about less than, you know, 2 sixteen months ago. 3 WARDEN THOMPSON: Right. And the 4 synopsis read what? 5 MR. McFARLAND: You have a staff member 6 that admitted having a sexual relationship with an 7 offender when she was interviewed. 8 WARDEN RODEEN: There might be a little 9 confusion, Mr. McFarland, between the EAC numbers and 10 OIG's. When there's a staff complaint, it's referred 11 to OIG. We don't pick up and call and get an emergency 12 action center number and do an EAC report for a 13 staff -- for an inmate or offender, so there is no two 14 different numbering systems. The EACs refer to 15 inmate-on-inmate and staff complaints are OIG. We 16 don't have -- 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. I'm not fretting 18 over the numbers. 19 WARDEN RODEEN: Well, we wouldn't have 20 that information. 21 MR. McFARLAND: And, Warden Thompson, I 22 would suspect you'd remember a staff member having an 23 ongoing sexual relationship that she admitted to having 24 about sixteen months ago. Can you remember that? 25 WARDEN THOMPSON: I can't remember her Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 237 1 name. I remember an incident where we had information 2 to believe -- I can't even remember what position she 3 had. I wished I could, but we had information to 4 believe she might be having a relationship. How we got 5 that information, I can't remember. I do know that we 6 called her in and presented the information that we had 7 to her. She was somewhat defensive and denied it in 8 the beginning. 9 As we continued to talk to her, she 10 finally admitted that she had had a relationship. We 11 didn't have any real evidence to prove that she had had 12 sex. She said that. Of course, when she said it to 13 us, she had not been Mirandized or anything like that, 14 which is fine for our administrative purposes, but it 15 certainly doesn't help OIG. 16 As soon as she said "sexual," we stopped 17 and we took it to OIG, and I'm listening to what you 18 said. Evidently when she did get read her rights, she 19 probably didn't admit to it anymore. She did resign in 20 lieu of disciplinary action after that investigation. 21 MR. McFARLAND: So you can -- The staff 22 can resign in lieu of ongoing investigation. That can 23 kill the investigation. 24 WARDEN THOMPSON: In this particular 25 case, administratively didn't kill it because she Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 238 1 admitted to having the 42(d), she said. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Well, technically 3 it's over when she resigns. Right? 4 WARDEN THOMPSON: No, not necessarily. I 5 mean, that case is written and it's placed in her 6 personnel file. Of course, if she ever decides to 7 rehire, that will be there and we'll do a no rehire 8 statement on that person, and administratively as far 9 as I'm concerned at the Coffield Unit, my 10 administration -- the administrative part of it is over 11 when she said "sex," and we will work with OIG any way 12 we can to continue with a criminal investigation 'cause 13 I certainly do not -- You know, I don't condone that 14 and if -- 15 MR. McFARLAND: I realize you can't 16 remember her name or position, but did you work with 17 OIG on a criminal investigation of -- 18 WARDEN THOMPSON: Just providing them the 19 information that we obtained up to the point where she 20 said "sex," and then, of course, any interviews that 21 they would have and, you know, anything that they ask 22 us to do, we would help them with. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Williams, the last 24 page of this OIG document, which I don't know if it's 25 of any use to give you a case number if you don't -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 239 1 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Give me a date and I'll 2 try to run down my notes I have. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, December 23, 2006. 4 WARDEN WILLIAMS: If you give me just a 5 minute, let me flip through my notes and see if I can 6 help you, sir. I wasn't privileged to the OIG 7 documentation, but I'll try to assist you in what I 8 can. 9 MR. McFARLAND: I believe Mr. Quarterman 10 has the document I have. 11 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 MR. McFARLAND: You remember this case? 13 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Vaguely, yes, sir. 14 MR. McFARLAND: 2006-2742, happened about 15 fifteen months ago at your facility. The offender 16 alleges that one of your lieutenants and a sergeant 17 assaulted -- sexually assaulted the offender in 12 18 Building, D-pod hallway, pulling down his pants while 19 the other one inserted his four fingers into his anus. 20 WARDEN WILLIAMS: My understanding of 21 that case is no merit found through OIG, if I remember 22 correct, sir, but that's an awful long time ago. My 23 understanding was no merit found in those allegations. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, why don't we 25 take a fifteen-minute break and get started a couple Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 240 1 minutes after 4:00? 2 (Break taken.) 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Thank you for 4 coming back. How many have video cameras? So, Warden 5 Thompson? 6 WARDEN THOMPSON: We have 127 total 7 surveillance cameras. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Are they live feed or 9 they have videotape? 10 WARDEN THOMPSON: One hundred and two of 11 them are live feed, twenty-five have a recording 12 capability. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Recording capability. 14 Are they always recording or they have to get clicked 15 on? 16 WARDEN THOMPSON: They're always 17 recording. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, okay. How long do 19 you keep those videotapes? 20 WARDEN THOMPSON: Well, twenty-four of 21 those cameras are on a DVR system that actually will 22 keep it up to thirty days and then record over it. One 23 of those recording system is somewhat antiquated. It's 24 actually VCR tape that we plug in and keep up to a 25 year's worth of tapes; just record back over them. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 241 1 MR. McFARLAND: And where are those 2 cameras just generally? 3 WARDEN THOMPSON: Well, twenty-four of 4 them are on our medium custody "A" wing and "B" wing, 5 and they're situated on a wall facing the cell fronts 6 where you can see the runs. You pretty much tell who's 7 moving up and down the runs and those in and out of the 8 cell, but you can't really -- can't tell anything 9 inside the cell. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 11 WARDEN THOMPSON: The same thing with one 12 in our "A" side seg. It videos constantly the front of 13 the cells. There are 102 of them in what we call P-6, 14 which originally was built to be a stand-alone boot 15 camp. The mission changed for that and it became a 16 large dormitory for the Coffield Unit and we actually 17 have a fence walkway connected to the perimeter. 18 There's no outside pickets around P-6, so there are 19 twenty-two monitors watching the perimeter. There are 20 seventy-two cameras inside the dormitories, and then 21 there's eight that are monitored in the hallway. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Where else would you want 23 them? 24 WARDEN THOMPSON: Everywhere I could get 25 them. How many cameras are -- Cameras are good. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 242 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 2 WARDEN THOMPSON: They're a deterrent. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Do you have the staff -- 4 Can you afford the staff to be watching them? Well, do 5 you have staff monitoring? 6 WARDEN THOMPSON: The cameras? 7 MR. McFARLAND: Yes. 8 WARDEN THOMPSON: I have staff monitoring 9 the 102 that are out in P-6. The "A" and "B" and 10 separate seg are recorded, and I do not have a staff 11 member watching those twenty-four hours a day. 12 MR. McFARLAND: So 102 of your 127 are 13 P-6 Unit, which is minimum-security dorm and a lot of 14 those are outside because you don't have a picket. 15 WARDEN THOMPSON: Twenty-two of them. 16 MR. McFARLAND: All right, twenty-two. 17 If you had, say, another fifty, where would you have 18 them located? 19 WARDEN THOMPSON: On as many general 20 population cell blocks as I could put them. 21 MR. McFARLAND: To watch the runs or 22 something else? 23 WARDEN THOMPSON: Runs and dayrooms. 24 MR. McFARLAND: And dayrooms. What about 25 the places that the Department's material list as risky Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 243 1 places for preferred sexual assault? You know, you got 2 list of showers and laundry rooms and hallways and 3 closets and so forth. Why not put some cameras around 4 there? 5 WARDEN THOMPSON: You could, but it's 6 been my experience that the majority of our 7 inmate-on-inmate sexual assaults occur in cells, and 8 when an older facility where you run in and outs every 9 hour, you have to rack up jobs, you have to open up the 10 whole row, and that's where they've been happening, so, 11 you know, when I look at the high risk area for 12 inmate-on-inmate sexual assaults, I would say that it 13 would be the cells; trying to monitor that activity. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Now, let's assume for a 15 moment that the BJS survey is correct, assuming that 16 it's correct. It says that in 2006 at your unit, you 17 had 232 victims of staff-on-inmate to 181 18 inmate-on-inmate. So, I bet you're right that the 19 extent that there's inmate-on-inmate sexual assault 20 going on in the cells, but if you believe the BJS 21 study, it says you got a bigger problem with 22 staff-on-inmate. 23 WARDEN THOMPSON: Correct. 24 MR. McFARLAND: So I'm wondering if -- 25 I'm just kind of thinking out loud with you here. If Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 244 1 you believe that survey, wouldn't it make sense to put 2 the -- any additional video cameras you get in the 3 places where you think staff might be able to get a 4 little alone time with an inmate? 5 WARDEN THOMPSON: Staff members, when -- 6 If they're trying to have some type of relationship 7 with an inmate, they're going to try and do it where it 8 doesn't bring attention to them, and one of the places 9 that it's pretty easy to talk to an offender for an 10 extended period of time without a lot of attention 11 being shown to you is in the cell block -- is in the 12 cell block. There's a lot of offenders there and they 13 may see it, but that doesn't mean that they'll report 14 it. 15 You know, I would -- I would agree that 16 as many cameras as you can get in a maximum-security 17 prison, you're that much better off, but they know 18 where the cameras are, too, and they'll move to where 19 there's not a camera. I mean, it's just human -- We're 20 dealing with people here that can think, and if they 21 know the camera's behind the washing machine in 22 the laundry, then they're not going to do it behind the 23 laundry washing machine. It might eliminate that spot, 24 but it will probably create another unless you -- 25 MR. McFARLAND: Not create one. Isn't it Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 245 1 always going to eliminate some options? 2 WARDEN THOMPSON: Well, it would 3 eliminate that option, but it just might move them to 4 another area. If you lived in a perfect world, of 5 course your entire prison is under -- you know, 6 reporting surveillance. Unfortunately we don't have 7 that, so when you talk about blind spots and places 8 where staff and offenders can be alone, I guess without 9 having that perfect world, I would say that one of the 10 best things that I know to do is try to really focus on 11 your offender traffic, after hours, making sure that, 12 you know, you don't just let offenders wonder around, 13 like at night there's no reason for them to be alone in 14 the laundry or in areas of the kitchen, like in the 15 back part of the kitchen where we store the food. 16 You know, we get that stuff out of those 17 places back there earlier in the day when there's more 18 staff there and that's locked and they can't get the 19 key. The staff member can't get the key. The line 20 staff member can't. They're going to have to get 21 permission from their supervisor to get the key to go 22 back there, so if you'll be careful and you try and 23 focus on those areas that you know that they can get to 24 after hours and control your key access during those 25 times, then I think you will shut off some of those Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 246 1 places. But, still, it's a big prison and you have to 2 keep it clean and you have to do maintenance and you 3 have to do a lot of stuff, and at point, you know, 4 there's times when you have to trust that your staff 5 are really doing what you're asking them to do and if 6 they're -- and some staff members, they don't tolerate 7 that, either. You know, when you talk to your shifts 8 about illegal activity with offenders -- We talk about 9 that all the time. 10 MR. McFARLAND: When you talk to them, 11 would it drive the point home if you had information 12 about a staff member who crossed the line and paid for 13 it? 14 WARDEN THOMPSON: Absolutely. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Would you want to share 16 that? 17 WARDEN THOMPSON: On the front page of 18 the paper, yes, sir; be a deterrent. But, you know, 19 when you tell your staff members, "Look, if you have an 20 idea that you're going to have sex with an offender and 21 then -- You're going to compromise yourself. You're 22 going to compromise your other officers. Your other 23 officers are not going to trust you, and you're not 24 going to be part of the team. And once you're 25 compromised, it's hard to come out of that situation." Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 247 1 MR. McFARLAND: But your team member's 2 going to wonder what other compromises you made. 3 WARDEN THOMPSON: Exactly. You'll have 4 sex with an inmate, you might bring in -- 5 MR. McFARLAND: That's right. 6 WARDEN THOMPSON: And I certainly have 7 dealt with a lot of things in my career, but I really 8 don't want to do that and either do those other 9 correctional officers. And I promise you, we have got 10 outstanding correctional officers that work extremely 11 hard under tough conditions and there's -- I don't see 12 a culture of "it's okay to ignore a sexual assault." I 13 think that at Coffield, we need to work on our ability 14 to see signs of possible things like this where the 15 offender doesn't necessarily report it. We -- I feel 16 like we do a great job of managing the situation once 17 the offender steps forward and says, "This has happened 18 to me." I think we look at all avenues and taken care 19 of that and -- 20 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Thompson, you're 21 familiar with the 42(d) sexual misconduct with 22 offender/Agency role. Right? 23 WARDEN THOMPSON: Yes, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: And during 2006, there 25 were no employee disciplinaries at your unit for 42(d). Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 248 1 There are 196 disciplines in that year, but not a 2 single one of them was for sexual misconduct. 3 WARDEN THOMPSON: Right. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Does that sound accurate 5 to you? 6 WARDEN THOMPSON: Yes. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 8 WARDEN THOMPSON: Because it wouldn't 9 make that statistic unless I processed it. And when 10 the officer resigns, before I can process it, then it 11 doesn't make that statistic. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 13 WARDEN THOMPSON: It was written. It's 14 there, but once the employee resigns, I can't just 15 continue on with the disciplinary and recommend 16 termination. I mean, I just can't do that. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 18 WARDEN THOMPSON: It doesn't mean that we 19 didn't pursue it and it doesn't mean that it wasn't 20 written. It just means that the employee got to that 21 point where obviously they didn't want to get fired for 22 that, so they thought they could quit, resign and go 23 and it'd go away and maybe that won't affect them in 24 another job, would be my opinion. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Again, with the fact that Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 249 1 precious few that ever get criminally prosecuted, if 2 any -- well, one in that year -- that seems like a 3 pretty smart thing to do, that all your troubles seem 4 to go away if you just resign. That takes care of your 5 administrative and chances are there's going to be no 6 prosecution. 7 WARDEN THOMPSON: Prosecuting's, it's 8 tough. It is tough. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Well, especially -- 10 WARDEN THOMPSON: I've had that 11 experience before and it wasn't a good one, you know. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Well, especially if you 13 can't find enough evidence, even when people confess. 14 As you were saying, you didn't Miranda that one staff 15 member, so she might have decided that when she was 16 Mirandized, that she wasn't going to admit to it. 17 WARDEN THOMPSON: But, you know, a lot of 18 that starts that way. I mean, it all starts with an 19 administrative investigation -- 20 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 21 WARDEN THOMPSON: -- with unit staff. We 22 don't have enough OIG investigators to do every 23 investigation of all the things that occur. And when 24 it gets to that criminal element, we have to be smart 25 enough at that point to get them in there so that we Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 250 1 have at least an opportunity to get a criminal case 2 started. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Williams -- 4 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir? 5 MR. McFARLAND: -- if you believe the BJS 6 survey that says that similar to Coffield that you got 7 a much bigger problem with staff-on-inmate than 8 inmate-on-inmate and, yet, there are zero 42(d)s in 9 2006, it's -- your unit as well -- assuming that the 10 BJS study is accurate, which is significant 11 staff-on-inmate problem, how would you explain the 12 discrepancy? 13 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Again, I'd have to go 14 back to -- on reference to the 42(d). It doesn't mean 15 that we haven't written officers up for that. For 16 2006, I did discipline one on a 42(a), which is 17 cohabitation with offender. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 19 WARDEN WILLIAMS: One was a 42(b), and 20 that particular year nine on 42(c), which is 21 corresponding with an inmate, finding love letters and 22 things of that nature in their property, for a total of 23 eleven disciplining 42 series, not counting 42(d) that 24 particular year. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Right. So for 2006, you Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 251 1 had eleven staff disciplined for a violation of Rule 2 42, which -- 3 WARDEN WILLIAMS: "A," "B" and "C" with 4 exception of "D." 5 MR. McFARLAND: And they have something 6 to do with improper relationship. 7 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, cohabitation. 8 One -- That one for cohabitation is an employee. Her 9 mother was actually the one that give us the evidence 10 she was living with an ex, the ex-Mexican Mafia gang 11 member from ad seg, and her mother brought that forward 12 and she as -- she resigned in lieu of discipline. The 13 42(b) one, I can't remember it. The 42 (c), the nine 14 corresponding, that's when we find information through 15 raw intelligence of "this officer's spending too much 16 time around that inmate or that inmate's spending too 17 much time around that officer." We investigate. We 18 can bring them in, talk to them, search their vehicle, 19 search their belongings, and a lot of times we'll find 20 a love letter or find a love letter in the inmate's 21 property so we can pursue administrative charges. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Did you? 23 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So those are the 25 eleven. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 252 1 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. They were 2 eleven. They were all -- If my memory serves me 3 correct, all these resigned in lieu of discipline. 4 That's a shameful thing. I hate to see them get 5 involved in it, but a lot of times when you confront 6 them with it, it's shameful for them to have to talk 7 about it. They just assume say, "I resign. I'm out of 8 it." 9 MR. McFARLAND: Where do you have video 10 cameras at Allred? 11 WARDEN WILLIAMS: We have 225, sir. We 12 have 209 in the housing areas. We have sixteen on a 13 perimeter. And housing areas, eighty-one is in "GP," 14 which is general population. A hundred and forty-four 15 is in high security/expansion cell block. In GP, 16 twenty-seven are in 3 Building, twenty-seven in 7 17 Building and twenty-seven in 8 Building. Three cameras 18 per pod directed at the dayrooms. Again, I wish we 19 could film inside the cells or inside the showers. We 20 can't. We can determine when an inmate goes in a 21 shower and come out or goes in a cell and come out, 22 but, again, like Warden Thompson, I wish we had a way 23 to film actually inside the cell, but 225 total, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: If you believe the BJS 25 survey, would you -- that the staff-on-inmate activity Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 253 1 is significantly more prevalent than the 2 inmate-on-inmate activity, would you reallocate your 3 cameras differently? 4 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I wouldn't reallocate 5 these differently. I wish I had more, for instance, 6 like chow halls, like laundries, like rec yards, like 7 sidewalks back behind buildings towards -- to where the 8 actual blind spot is, blind spots on the rec yard that 9 the officer sometimes can't see real good. That's 10 where I would like to see them. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Can you spare the 12 officers to watch these monitors? 13 WARDEN WILLIAMS: If I could get the 14 monitors, or if we had the monitors, I'm sure we could 15 finally get this done, or at least have it taped where 16 we can review the tape. 17 MR. McFARLAND: So am I correct that 18 you're thinking that this survey might be helpful in 19 future allocation, the management decisions on your 20 part about where you might want to -- if there is a 21 problem, staff-on-inmate liaisons, where you might want 22 to -- How do you define it? 23 WARDEN WILLIAMS: If I had an opportunity 24 to get additional cameras based on this survey, them 25 are some areas that I would like to see them go in, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 254 1 yes, sir. 2 MR. McFARLAND: And, Warden Rodeen, 3 what's your camera situation? 4 WARDEN RODEEN: I have 316 cameras at the 5 Clements Unit. There are different recording systems 6 and placed in different areas. We have an older type 7 that runs by a sensor in two of the housing areas. Two 8 in the housing areas have the motion detector sensors 9 that as long as there's some type of motion in the 10 housing area, they come on and they record, and I have 11 one system -- The newer system is a permanent recording 12 on the DVR system. That's the newest system. 13 We also have some cameras in our 14 expansion cell block that are more for observation. 15 There is some recording capability, but it's selective. 16 There is a VCR we keep in the major's office and we 17 have to go to that specific camera and put in the tape, 18 so if we have a -- or suspect something going on in a 19 pod or part of our investigation, we can dial into an 20 area and put a tape in and record that. In the main 21 control centers, there's also capabilities of putting 22 additional tape recorders and recording more of those 23 in expansion cell block also. 24 MR. McFARLAND: How many of your 316, 25 Warden Rodeen, have tape recording capability? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 255 1 WARDEN RODEEN: Permanent tape recording 2 abilities, seventy-four. 3 MR. McFARLAND: I didn't ask you, Warden 4 Williams, how many of your 225 are 24/7 recording? 5 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I can break it down for 6 you so you can understand it a little easier. Three 7 building, they're set up on a DVR program, a hard 8 drive. Seven/Eight Building is a VCR-type recording 9 along with expansion cell block, which has 144 as 10 Warden Rodeen or Mr. Rodeen was referring to. You have 11 to go and individually pick the area you want to tape 12 in those 144 areas to include the outside perimeters 13 also. 14 WARDEN RODEEN: We further have cameras 15 in our dormitory housing areas. They're just hooked 16 to monitors. They monitor from the pickets. We've 17 tried to do some of the expansion. We've put some 18 cameras -- areas such as maintenance. Our Maintenance 19 Department now has four different cameras which monitor 20 our boiler areas where the office is, one of the blind 21 spots you referred to, and we put some in our welding 22 shop, in our back areas so that the maintenance 23 supervisor can monitor in his office during-the-day 24 activities the back parts of the shop. We've also 25 installed sixteen cameras in our Industry Department. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 256 1 It monitors our shoe factory. It's covered by cameras 2 also to help cover some of them blind spots also. 3 MR. McFARLAND: And, Warden Black, what's 4 your camera situation at Mountain View? 5 WARDEN BLACK: We don't have any cameras 6 at Mountain View. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Would you want them? 8 WARDEN BLACK: Yes, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Where would you put them 10 if you had them? If you had 100 cameras, where would 11 you put them first? 12 WARDEN BLACK: Well, I'd certainly put 13 them in cell block area where I have a number of 14 offender protection requests made, but I'd also put 15 them in areas like the other warden indicated, like the 16 back of Food Service Department, the laundries. Those 17 areas where there's not as much traffic or where 18 instances might occur. 19 MR. McFARLAND: And if you believe the 20 BJS survey, will that be a useful piece of information 21 to figure out, you know, whether you have a problem, 22 where you might want to allocate your staff and your 23 cameras? 24 WARDEN BLACK: Yes. 25 MS. ELLIS: Warden Rodeen, your facility Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 257 1 reported eighty investigations of staff sexual 2 misconduct. BJS data states that based on the survey 3 reports, an estimated 311 inmates out of -- inmates 4 experienced unwilling staff sexual misconduct. Another 5 213 now -- reports of willing incident of staff sexual 6 misconduct. You have any professional opinions about 7 the gap in the numbers? 8 WARDEN RODEEN: About the discrepancy 9 from the survey to what was actually reported? I guess 10 I can say based on, you know, survey, there might be 11 some people that are willing to more come forward and 12 that's why we would like to continue our education 13 process and our training process for the staff and for 14 the offender so more would come forward. So, if we 15 assume the survey is absolutely correct, then that gap 16 could be reached by additional training and more 17 knowledge. I think as they realize that when they 18 report it, we do take action, that it's either 19 administrative action or criminal action, depending on 20 what they report, or the cell changes we do, or if 21 they're getting extorted in other areas, I think that 22 gap will eventually close as more people become aware 23 as we concentrate on our areas to eliminate sexual 24 abuse in the prison. 25 MS. ELLIS: Warden, what is it that you Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 258 1 don't have at your finger tips that you could possibly 2 obtain that would make a difference and improve the 3 situation in your facility? What's your dream list? 4 What do you need? 5 WARDEN RODEEN: Well, we talked about 6 some cameras. I know I have one housing area that I 7 would still like to get covered eventually. These 8 high-profile blind spot areas, I think we could work 9 on. I know our agent is being very diligent in 10 recruiting staff and staff retention to try to get our 11 numbers up to re-ensure that all our positions are 12 covered, but we want to make sure our staff is 13 extremely vigil and -- so many excessive days. 14 MS. ELLIS: And in obtaining additional 15 staff, what do you want for them? What do you want for 16 your staff? 17 WARDEN RODEEN: Well, I want them the 18 same thing that I want is a safe prison environment 19 that actually promotes a safe prison both to work in 20 and both for offenders to live in, you know. As you 21 know, prisons have an overall mission of rehabilitation 22 and re-entry in society. The majority of the offenders 23 are going to be released and become our neighbors, 24 attend our churches and our schools, so we really want 25 the same safe environment we want them to model after Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 259 1 and behave and seek out the treatment and accept the 2 programs that are available and be good citizens upon 3 their release. And for my staff, I want a safe prison 4 for them to work in. 5 MS. ELLIS: Okay. And in modeling, you 6 want to model dignity and respect -- 7 WARDEN RODEEN: Absolutely. 8 MS. ELLIS: -- for offenders as well? 9 WARDEN RODEEN: Yes. I want our staff to 10 model that and I want the offenders to feel that that's 11 how they want to act when they get out; that they can 12 see that in our staff as role models. 13 MS. ELLIS: Thank you. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Let me just ask each of 15 you what the mishousing situation is at your 16 facilities. I asked Ms. Bollard about Estelle, but 17 Warden Thompson, at Coffield, how many inmates do you 18 have that are currently mishoused? 19 WARDEN THOMPSON: None. 20 MR. McFARLAND: None. 21 WARDEN THOMPSON: None. When we look at 22 our custody levels, we have available housing. The 23 only time that really becomes an issue at Coffield is 24 when our medium custody number gets, you know, close to 25 the capacity for that, and if one of them -- You know, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 260 1 like the last day I was at work, our maximum count on 2 our medium custody is 328 and we were at 323. When 3 that number -- If we get a medium custody and don't 4 have a bed for him, that person will go in the 5 transient house until one comes open. 6 MR. McFARLAND: How long might they be in 7 transient house? 8 WARDEN THOMPSON: We try real hard to get 9 them out as fast as we can. You want to be careful. 10 You got to monitor that housing area and upgrade when 11 you can, but you don't want to upgrade too fast, 12 either, because there's -- Well, there's a protocol for 13 them being on -- 14 MR. McFARLAND: For being on which 15 custody? 16 WARDEN THOMPSON: G-4. I'm sorry. My 17 mind is a few years back. We want to upgrade them when 18 they should be upgraded, not just to create a bed, so 19 we would house them on transient. That would be the 20 only time. 21 MR. McFARLAND: What's your been your 22 experience in how long you got offenders in transient 23 housing in a given time? 24 WARDEN THOMPSON: There's times when 25 they're there too long. We try to get them out in Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 261 1 thirty days. Sometimes they're there for 2 investigations and the investigation takes a while. 3 Sometimes we're waiting on a transfer request. 4 Sometimes the SCC asks us for more information and we 5 have to go back and get some more information and get 6 it back to them, but we try real hard to keep it under 7 thirty days. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Are those single-cell or 9 double-cell? 10 WARDEN THOMPSON: Mostly -- You can 11 double-cell in transient; most of the time it would be 12 single-cell. The only time I would double-cell is if I 13 had an overflow of medium custody. I might house them 14 together in transient to save bed space. 15 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Williams? 16 WARDEN WILLIAMS: I don't have an actual 17 number of mishoused offenders. We also utilize 18 transient beds to house offenders. Again, G-4 19 custody's a problem in some areas because you're going 20 to have too many G-4 custodies or some G-4s are trying 21 to make G-2s and you make enough G-2s out of good 22 behavior that your G-2 bed is full, so you have to 23 utilize transient status and keep them until they can 24 go into G-2 custody. That's a good thing. You want 25 G-4 to G-2 custody. That's what you like to see. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 262 1 That's what you like to see, so I'm sorry I don't have 2 an actual number today to give you, but we also use 3 transient housing for that also. 4 MR. McFARLAND: And Warden Rodeen? 5 WARDEN RODEEN: Yes. My transient status 6 as far as mishoused is very minimal. I think the other 7 day when I left they had, like, three G-4s awaiting 8 housing and one ad seg, but we have a building that 9 isn't an administrative segregation. It's a solitary 10 building and transient. That's separate from all the 11 other housing areas on the facility where we house our 12 pre-hearing investigations, so the one ad seg that 13 actually in -- those that have been in custody waiting 14 on a bed to come open in our expansion cell block. 15 And on the mediums, the G-4s are the ones 16 sometimes that run over, but we place them in 17 transients, in them buildings, and those cells are 18 known as -- They can live together because they are 19 both G-4s waiting proper housing, but that problem 20 usually fixes itself pretty quickly because the UCC 21 convenes often and we review G-4s that are -- and you 22 have G-5s that are also promoted or might run 23 disciplinary that same day or demoting people out of 24 G-4 to G-5 and swapping out. So, usually the problem 25 self-fixes as far as transients as far as mishoused. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 263 1 Our other transient population are those awaiting 2 transfer that we recommended transfers. They're not 3 really mishoused. They're just in a transfer. We're 4 also a hub. What I mean by a "hub" is there's units 5 further to the north. They come there and stay the 6 night -- for transportation or release chains and the 7 buses that pick up, so we have one designated area, so 8 they just stay one night, or if they come in on a 9 Friday stay till Monday, but those are the time 10 periods. 11 MR. McFARLAND: And right now how many 12 mishoused do you have? 13 WARDEN RODEEN: About a week ago when I 14 first came up here, I think I had four -- three or four 15 G-4s and one ad seg. 16 MR. McFARLAND: And, Warden Black, what's 17 the situation at -- 18 WARDEN BLACK: About the last two months, 19 we have been pretty full and we have had some offenders 20 mishoused. We follow the same procedure. We place 21 them in transient until we have a bed available. Last 22 week, the highest count that I saw was twelve 23 mishoused, and at the end of the day, after we did 24 committee and we had an outgoing chain, we had about 25 six last Friday, I believe. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 264 1 MR. McFARLAND: And when y'all are 2 talking with the UCC about your mishoused, you have -- 3 you consider the list of predator and vulnerability -- 4 vulnerable inmates? Do you have that list? Do you 5 consider that to be relevant, Warden Rodeen? 6 WARDEN RODEEN: At committees? 7 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. When your -- UCC 8 meets to go over how many folks are mishoused, you -- 9 In trying to solve that problem, do you have access to 10 this list of sexual predators and sexual victims or 11 potential victims? 12 WARDEN RODEEN: Oh, yes, yes. The Safe 13 Prison people interview the chains each day and they 14 come over and have the list with them and it's provided 15 to the UCC, but we don't make any type of 16 classification based on what houses are currently 17 available. We make the classification decision based 18 on what's best for the offender, and then we're going 19 to make sure he gets placed into that house or in 20 transient till that particular housing is available 21 because we're not going to place him with the -- 22 because we don't have a bed in that custody. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. The reason why I'm 24 asking is there are several instances in the synopsis 25 of cases where inmate-on-inmate sexual assault for the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 265 1 inmate or whoever wrote the report says they were 2 denied protection because of lack of beds, so -- 3 WARDEN RODEEN: Denied protection because 4 of a lack of beds? 5 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 6 WARDEN RODEEN: I don't recall that. 7 MR. McFARLAND: My question to y'all -- I 8 hear you saying that you'd never make a housing 9 decision -- housing classification on a basis of what's 10 available, but rather what that individual deserves. 11 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 12 WARDEN RODEEN: Right, exactly. 13 WARDEN WILLIAMS: In our count rooms, we 14 have our hall cards and tags on boards are flagged as 15 predators. It's easily noted who the predators are. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Let me ask y'all about 17 staffing and staffing vacancies. You heard the 18 testimony yesterday that turnover rate -- attrition 19 rate is 24 percent among your new hires. Forty some 20 odd percent of them leave within twelve months, so am I 21 correct in assuming that you've got some vacant 22 positions at each of your facilities? 23 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 24 WARDEN RODEEN: Yes, sir. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And how would your staff Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 266 1 deployment change if you had no vacancies at your 2 facility? In other words, if you had a hundred percent 3 of the positions filled, what would change your 4 deployment of staff? Where would there be more staff, 5 less staff? How -- What would you deploy differently? 6 Start with you, Warden Black. Do you have an opinion 7 on that? 8 WARDEN BLACK: Well, if I was fully 9 staffed according to my staffing plan, then everybody 10 would be in place where they're supposed to be, but 11 when I'm not fully staffed, we still have staff that 12 work overtime to fill those positions. Those key areas 13 are always manned. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Well, yeah, yeah. I'm 15 not suggesting nobody there, but I'm wondering, is 16 overtime a problem? 17 WARDEN BLACK: Yes. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 'Cause it's more 19 expensive. 20 WARDEN BLACK: Plus they're tired. 21 MR. McFARLAND: And a tired officer is 22 not necessarily the most effective officer. Is that 23 right? 24 WARDEN BLACK: At times, yes. 25 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And being human, Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 267 1 if you've just done -- you're on your fifteenth 2 straight hour and that happens to be when you get urine 3 thrown on you, you just might -- that just might do the 4 trick. 5 WARDEN BLACK: Might be the trick. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. So is -- In your 7 opinion, is security compromised by the vacancies at 8 your unit? 9 WARDEN BLACK: At times, I believe it is. 10 I don't know that I'd say "compromised." I know that 11 might be fragile at times. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Why do you think there's 13 such a high attrition rate? 14 WARDEN BLACK: Well, a lot of people come 15 to TDC just wanting a job, not a career. They don't 16 really understand what all that entails, and after they 17 go through pre-service and actually start to work, 18 sometimes it's just not that important to them and they 19 get other jobs; some of them -- some of them always pay 20 more. They just don't want to work there -- 21 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 22 WARDEN BLACK: -- and some of them just 23 aren't that -- for lack of a better word -- rigid to 24 come in and do their job and leave. Some of them tend 25 to want to counsel and make friends and that's just not Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 268 1 the place for them to do that. That's not their job 2 and some of them voluntarily leave. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Would you like to see the 4 academy change its curriculum in any way to give the 5 new hires more of a reality dose so that you don't have 6 such a high attrition rate with your newcomers? 7 WARDEN BLACK: Well, I think that -- At 8 least where I work in Gatesville, I think they're doing 9 that because instead of it just being all classroom, 10 they do come out to the units and visit. They work. 11 They help us with shake downs. They actually work in 12 the position and they understand -- get to see hands-on 13 what they're going to be doing when they come to work. 14 And I know when I started way back twenty-three years 15 ago, I went into a unit, but I wasn't there all day and 16 it wasn't several times during the course of my 17 training, but I -- At Mountain View, they do come to 18 the unit and they visit those units -- the six units 19 there several times during that training period. 20 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Rodeen, you got 21 vacancies there at Clements? 22 WARDEN RODEEN: Yes, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: How many right now? 24 WARDEN RODEEN: About 160 right now. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And how many total do you Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 269 1 have in your plan? 2 WARDEN RODEEN: My staffing plan requires 3 for 800 security officers, but I have, of course, other 4 supervisors in security, but just a correctional 5 officer requires 800. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And how many of 7 the 160 that you're short would be security officers? 8 WARDEN RODEEN: Those are the numbers for 9 the correctional staff. 10 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So that's exactly 11 20 percent -- Yeah. Has it -- Have you had -- How long 12 have you been 20 percent short on your staffing plan? 13 WARDEN RODEEN: We've consistently stayed 14 right around there since I've been there since August 15 of '06. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 17 WARDEN RODEEN: It will fluctuate based 18 on the incoming academies and then, of course, as we 19 recruit and the next academy class gets put together, 20 our numbers get a little better and then we lose in 21 between -- 22 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 23 WARDEN RODEEN: -- so consistently around 24 150 which we've been short. 25 MR. McFARLAND: And how would your Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 270 1 staffing deployment change if you had another 160 2 security officers? 3 WARDEN RODEEN: Well, the first thing it 4 would do, it would alleviate the overtime work. Our 5 facility's on mandatory, not just voluntary. We're at 6 the point where we needed to go to a system to where 7 they work two extra days a month, okay, so the first 8 thing it would alleviate my staffing up is they have -- 9 they wouldn't have to work those legs. Now, they have 10 twelve-hour shifts, so they work four days on, four 11 days off. One of those cycles is six days on, two days 12 off, and they work three additional cycles of four days 13 on and four days off. 14 So, the first thing we want to alleviate 15 is that, so you just have them working four on and four 16 off. The security of the Clements Unit is not 17 compromised even though we're running that short 18 because staffing is in the critical areas, but what it 19 hinders is our ability. The activities have to slow 20 down and although security might not sympathize, we 21 don't necessarily -- can run all the programs that we 22 want to run that help in the rehabilitation or in the 23 relaxation. Recreation sometimes has to be cancelled. 24 There are activities that we can't do, but the 25 security's not compromised, so -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 271 1 MR. McFARLAND: Except to the extent that 2 the programming keeps folk from being idle and an idle 3 inmate is more likely to get in trouble. 4 WARDEN RODEEN: Exactly. And as a 5 warden, we try to prioritize those activities like the 6 Windham School -- top priority. We go there and shut 7 that down first. We might shut down a recreation 8 section first, so we have priority levels that we 9 manage on our system on. If we don't have enough staff 10 that day, we brought in some overtime, we eliminate 11 this activity so there are no offenders in that area so 12 we don't compromise the security or the integrity of 13 the institutions -- 14 MR. McFARLAND: But -- 15 WARDEN RODEEN: -- but having more staff 16 would allow us the ability to staff all -- They're all 17 critical to me, but there's some serious positions. 18 All the critical gets staffed all the time. It's those 19 bottom tiers that -- jobs that have to be done every 20 day. Our staff gets stressed when you have property 21 officers that have a function and chain officers that 22 have a function and we need utility officers to do 23 things all day long, pick up property, search 24 offenders. These are the positions that would be 25 demanded every day and we'd be able to do that full Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 272 1 time if we were staffed up. Security's really not 2 compromised, but the production of the institution is 3 slowed down when we're not staffed. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Warden Black, how 5 many security personnel are you short? 6 WARDEN BLACK: Last week, I was short 7 about six officers, but that doesn't include the ones 8 that are out on FMLA and the ones that are overseas in 9 the military right now. 10 MR. McFARLAND: So if you include those, 11 how many security officers are you short? 12 WARDEN BLACK: I'd say approximately 13 fifteen to twenty. 14 MR. McFARLAND: And how many are in your 15 whole plan? How many security officers? Fully 16 staffed, how many? 17 WARDEN BLACK: Two hundred and thirty 18 security. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Williams, how 20 about Allred? 21 WARDEN WILLIAMS: When I left, we were at 22 about 87.8 percent. Right now, we don't do the 23 mandatory overtime. We do a voluntary overtime. I 24 agree that additional staff would have more people out 25 there for eyes to see and more programs to be Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 273 1 implemented every day and do away with -- and we're not 2 warehousing inmates as much. They get out and do rec 3 and go to school and things of that nature -- church -- 4 things of that nature. We stay at about -- Since my 5 tenure there, we stay at about 88, 87 percent. It 6 helps us a little bit because we have an on-site 7 facility. We do our own in-service stuff -- I mean, 8 our own pre-service there. 9 We actually go out and do the hiring 10 seminars and we hire local people, and then I think it 11 tends to help them when they get to work for the people 12 who taught them versus going to the academy and they 13 meet sergeants, captains, lieutenants and majors. They 14 stay six weeks with them and then they get shipped off 15 three or four hundred miles. And in some areas, they 16 can't do that. We're fortunate enough to be able to do 17 that. 18 The economy -- The oil boom around 19 Wichita Falls, we've lost a lot of employees to the oil 20 rigs, fast money, quick money. And this generation, 21 they like that fast, quick money. I like the old 22 steady "I know it's going to be there. I've got a 23 retirement," but unfortunately some of the younger-type 24 people we hire, they like that fast money. They -- 25 I've seen them separate years before their retirement Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 274 1 to go do this and that plays out, they come right back 2 to us, so we're fortunate that we get to have our own 3 base pre-service along with our in-service, and I think 4 that helps retain some of the people because they're 5 more familiar with their supervisors when they get to 6 the facility and easier to talk to. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And, Warden Thompson, 8 Coffield? 9 WARDEN THOMPSON: Which number would you 10 like first? 11 MR. McFARLAND: Well, what is the full 12 staffing plan for security officers? 13 WARDEN THOMPSON: Seven hundred 14 twenty-five. 15 MR. McFARLAND: And how many do you have? 16 WARDEN THOMPSON: Four seventy. 17 MR. McFARLAND: You're short 225 security 18 officers? 19 WARDEN THOMPSON: That's correct. 20 MR. McFARLAND: That concern you? 21 WARDEN THOMPSON: Of course, it does. 22 MR. McFARLAND: And you got a 23 forty-three-year-old facility. Right? 24 WARDEN THOMPSON: Sixty-five. You're 25 close. One thing that helps me is that Coffield is in Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 275 1 Palestine and we have a cluster of five units that are 2 extremely close and, of course, we do work a lot of 3 overtime, but correctional staff from these other four 4 facilities, and some even further than that, are 5 allowed to come to Coffield and assist us every day and 6 they do -- 7 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 8 WARDEN THOMPSON: -- and that helps. 9 MR. McFARLAND: So on a pinch -- I mean, 10 if you had an emergency, you could pull some -- 11 WARDEN THOMPSON: There's some help 12 close. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 14 WARDEN THOMPSON: Just right across the 15 road there. 16 MR. McFARLAND: But the absence of an 17 emergency, how do you deal with having about 60, 70 18 percent of your -- your staffing plan? 19 WARDEN THOMPSON: Lots of overtime and 20 monitoring, you know, the activities as Warden Rodeen 21 just explained. If there's a situation that particular 22 day that staffing is just an extreme up, then we'll 23 cancel -- 24 MR. McFARLAND: So it's mandatory 25 overtime. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 276 1 WARDEN THOMPSON: No. 2 MR. McFARLAND: It's not. 3 WARDEN THOMPSON: No. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Voluntary overtime. 5 WARDEN THOMPSON: Everything at Coffield 6 is a voluntary overtime deal. And we debated this -- 7 trust me -- and had meetings and talked and beat our 8 head against the wall. Mandatory overtime was tried at 9 Coffield for a while and we lost a bunch of staff. I 10 mean, it think it's a geographic location for that 11 area. Unlike out there in Amarillo where he is the 12 only game in town, there's -- You know, there's five 13 prisons in Coffield -- I mean, in Palestine, a lot of 14 oil field work there. And when we tried these -- and 15 that wasn't when I was there. That was previous before 16 I got there. The mandatory overtime just really didn't 17 work. We had too many people quit, so we -- When we 18 recruit voluntary overtime, we get assistance from the 19 other surrounding units to fill that gap. 20 MR. McFARLAND: So if you were fully 21 staffed, not only do away with the overtime, how would 22 your allocation differ? 23 WARDEN THOMPSON: Well, first of all, you 24 would run right with your building schedule. You would 25 not have to be concerned that at six o'clock every day Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 277 1 there are not enough people there to do all the 2 activities that are scheduled. Taking enormous amount 3 of stress off of the supervisors and department heads 4 because they would know going to work every day, you 5 know, whether or not you got enough there to take care 6 of things would not be an issue. It would be a big 7 stress reliever. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Well, the last question 9 that we have is to just ask each of you what's on your 10 dream list. I mean, what -- because this would be 11 helpful to us in our report. What would be the most 12 helpful things to have or do or stop doing or not to 13 have that would improve the sexual assault situation, 14 whatever it is, at each of your institutions? 15 So, whether you buy BJS's numbers or not, 16 I think as Mr. Livingston very eloquently put it, it 17 means zero tolerance, whether it's 1.0 percent or 15.7 18 percent or anything in between. It's too many and we 19 can always improve and he intends to have it improved, 20 so what would you -- What would be on your short list 21 for what you'd need to make that happen to tighten up 22 so that you could really feel better about the 23 implementation in a Safe Prison Plan? Let me start 24 with Warden Black. What's on your wish list. 25 WARDEN BLACK: I think one of the things Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 278 1 that I would wish for would be cameras in those key 2 areas because I think that it would protect everyone 3 involved, not just the offender. When the offender 4 makes an allegation, I could at least get some more 5 information to prove whether they are telling the truth 6 or not, but it also will protect my staff when they are 7 constantly -- their name is constantly used in those 8 allegations and they may not have even worked that day. 9 I think cameras would be the most important to me right 10 now. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Along with more officers. 12 WARDEN BLACK: Along with more officers, 13 yes, sir. But the concern -- My concern for sexual 14 assault is not just the offender as far as the staff 15 members, too, because a lot of times they are used and 16 I am very, very determined when I find that there is a 17 staff member that is guilty of sexual assault, sexual 18 misconduct, I want to make sure that I protect that 19 offender and I protect my staff that are not involved 20 'cause a lot of times they choose sides. But in the 21 end, they may find out that they were on the wrong 22 side, they believed the wrong person, but I think 23 cameras would help. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Rodeen? 25 WARDEN RODEEN: I almost have those same Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 279 1 sentiments. Top of my list would be cameras and staff. 2 Those two things are very important to me to create a 3 safe prison. The ability to go back and even update 4 some of the existing recording equipment that we have, 5 so I like the DVR systems. It's the newer technology 6 and, you know, it might even be better technology 7 coming down the line, but the ability to keep it 8 stored, withdraw that information would be able to 9 review it is important 'cause you can either 10 substantiate or find that extra balance of evidence by 11 using the cameras. 12 We can -- An inmate says "So-and-So is 13 coming into my cell" and that housing area is under a 14 camera, we'll at least be able to tell if they went to 15 that house the way they are designed. The cameras 16 facing the housing -- or the showers are all in that 17 one area where there's -- twenty-four cells are and 18 that's the coverage areas. If we can get those 19 covered, it would be great. And the more staff you 20 have -- When you're talking about making it a safe 21 prison, we have these utility officers moving around, 22 you have more people looking at places and being in 23 these blind spots and checking these coolers and 24 looking at these closets and doing things that would 25 make it better and safer prison. When you're stretched Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 280 1 and you have to use that utility officer to help 2 you feed chow, then you're a little stressed. 3 MR. McFARLAND: To help you what? 4 WARDEN RODEEN: To feed chow or create a 5 task or -- at Clements or any maximum-security here, 6 you don't have good sense of your staffing plan, use of 7 force teams or when you have to handle emergency 8 situations or deal with a crisis or something happen, a 9 medical issue, obviously heart attacks on the unit, 10 there's stuff that happens and you gotta have staff 11 respond to those instances, so if you were fully 12 staffed, they could be responding to those incidences 13 and still have people in all these other areas for 14 supervision. 15 MS. ELLIS: Warden Rodeen, what would you 16 do to encourage more reporting? 17 WARDEN RODEEN: From the offenders? 18 MS. ELLIS: From the offender. 19 WARDEN RODEEN: Exactly the lines we're 20 doing now. This Peer Education Program is excellent 21 and we do try to get it more creative on how we get it 22 out to the population. It's not just through peer 23 education. Of course, our supervisors walk around. I 24 walk around. The assistant wardens walk around. We 25 talk about it. We talk about it at classification Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 281 1 committees. We train our non-security people. Our 2 chaplains talk about it, sociologists, medical people, 3 so it's not just something from a security aspect. You 4 do it from an institution. Those are the things that 5 really help. 6 As we train more of our people and 7 develop better curriculums and come up with more 8 initiatives on how to do things and as we learn -- This 9 is a fairly new process. I know it's been here a few 10 years, but, you know, turnover rate -- This is a new 11 process that all of us are learning. People take new 12 positions. They have to learn it, so it's a constant 13 growth of our Agency. We're constantly learning, and I 14 think once that's -- we'll do a much better job and 15 we're dedicated to do a much better job. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Warden Williams? 17 WARDEN WILLIAMS: We have a duty to both 18 the inmates and the officers to provide a safe living 19 environment for them to work. I agree also additional 20 training, additional cameras and additional staff. 21 Those additional cameras for those areas that we don't 22 have them in now. Those blind spots that was mentioned 23 throughout this Panel, kitchens, laundries, areas of 24 that nature. I'd like to state that I've learned a lot 25 in the last two days I've been here. It's a great Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 282 1 learning experience for me. I'm going to take what 2 I've learned and all the information I've got back to 3 share with my key staff and they can offer this as 4 additional training to my employees. It's been a great 5 experience for me, and I'm going to see that I talk to 6 my staff about it, but training, cameras and additional 7 staff. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you. 9 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Great experience for 10 me. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Anything else that you 12 want to pass on to the rest of us in addition to your 13 staff that you can take back with you? We're all ears 14 as to, you know, are there particular things that made 15 sense over the last two days that we want to make 16 standardized? 17 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Some of the notations 18 about some of the events that were going on back of the 19 shower, I need to go and put my eyes back to make sure 20 that's not happening at my facility, and if it is, what 21 steps I can do to correct that. Warden Rodeen talked 22 about some of his -- He's took the actual door off the 23 SSI closet. They couldn't -- That's all great 24 examples. We're wardens, but we don't know everything, 25 and sometimes we get involved in our own little world Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 283 1 and it's good to go somewhere to see outside our world 2 and gather that additional experience. So, there are 3 several things I picked up that I think I could share 4 with my staff and make it a safer place to work and 5 stay. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Y'all have solid steel 7 doors on your -- in your general population? Does it 8 vary? Do you have windows? 9 WARDEN WILLIAMS: We have windows in our 10 doors, on our sliding doors at the Allred Unit -- have 11 windows. Some of the windows are small and they can't 12 really see through very well. 13 WARDEN RODEEN: Some of our predatory 14 areas, though, we have what we call "Safe Prison 15 doors" -- 16 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Predator cells. 17 WARDEN RODEEN: -- that we've placed in 18 the facilities that we've identified severe predator 19 and we've got him in restrictive custody level. They 20 go behind the special door -- 21 WARDEN WILLIAMS: It's got more glass in 22 it. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Tell me about the doors. 24 Does it have heavy plastic? 25 WARDEN RODEEN: It's not only top of the Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 284 1 door. It's fully Plexiglass. Below the tray 2 slide -- 3 WARDEN WILLIAMS: You can see better. 4 WARDEN RODEEN: -- you can see. 5 WARDEN WILLIAMS: The picket officer can 6 see in there better and along with the other officers, 7 and it's uncomfortable for the inmate to be in there. 8 They don't want to be in a predator cell. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Because they're exposed. 10 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Everybody knows. 11 Everybody knows, "Hey, bad guy." 12 MR. McFARLAND: And are they -- From top 13 to bottom, are they clear or is it just from the waist 14 up? 15 WARDEN RODEEN: No. It's from about the 16 top of the door, down to the tray slide, then there's 17 an actual tray slide -- 18 WARDEN WILLIAMS: And then below the tray 19 slide. 20 WARDEN RODEEN: -- then below the tray 21 slide -- 22 WARDEN WILLIAMS: So you can see on the 23 floor directly below the tray slide. 24 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry. You can see 25 above the tray slide? Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 285 1 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Above the tray slide 2 and you can see below the tray slide, like if they duck 3 down behind the door, you can see them on the floor. 4 MR. McFARLAND: So the only thing you 5 can't see through is the area immediately around the 6 tray slide. 7 WARDEN WILLIAMS: More or less, unless 8 you're at an angle. Sometimes you have to position 9 yourself better so you can actually see them through 10 the door itself. 11 WARDEN RODEEN: It's not a very big slot. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Would y'all want to put 13 those in everywhere? I mean, let's assume these 14 surveys are accurate and there's all kind of stuff. 15 Everybody says that the place you'd want to use cameras 16 themselves is at the cells, at least for 17 inmate-on-inmate stuff, so would you want to change 18 the -- 19 WARDEN WILLIAMS: If we could afford to 20 in a perfect world, I would say "yes, sir." 21 WARDEN RODEEN: Start with our more 22 restrictive custody. We've identified predator, 23 downgraded their custody. We don't want the whole 24 institution really like that. You know, some inmates 25 that are not involved in -- Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 286 1 MR. McFARLAND: Some inmates what? 2 WARDEN RODEEN: They're not involved 3 in -- 4 (Speakers overlapping.) 5 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Right, right. 6 WARDEN RODEEN: -- you cooperate, you get 7 more rights. 8 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Right. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Quarterman? 10 MR. QUARTERMAN: Yeah. I'd like to make 11 one -- one matter. In high security, you wouldn't want 12 to use that type of door because of the amount of 13 abuse. Those doors won't hold up to that amount of 14 abuse, but for a general population setting, they have 15 been very effective for us. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. I noticed in the 17 Estelle high security area, you didn't have Plexiglass 18 doors there. 19 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Too much abuse. 20 WARDEN RODEEN: Right. 21 MR. McFARLAND: But they're not 22 double-celled, so they're not involving anybody other 23 than themselves. 24 WARDEN WILLIAMS: That or they're just 25 abusing the door itself to try to manipulate the door Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 287 1 or damage the door or, you know. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Warden Thompson? 3 WARDEN THOMPSON: One thing about going 4 last, I agree with everything that everybody said. 5 Those are all nice things, but if I had one thing -- 6 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 7 WARDEN THOMPSON: -- that would be the 8 ability to fill -- and I think Mr. Livingston talked 9 about it yesterday. No. 1 primary thing is to hire 10 correctional staff that we do not have right now. It 11 would be a great thing to have people waiting to go to 12 work for us because just like any other manager of any 13 business, I want as good an employee as I can get, and 14 if you have a larger pool of people to choose from, 15 that makes your job that much easier. So, if there was 16 one thing that I think would make all of our jobs much, 17 much easier, it would be able to get that, to get that 18 level of correctional officers out there to where 19 there's actually a list waiting to go to work here as 20 opposed to us just recruiting everywhere throughout the 21 state as we can. That would be my list. 22 MR. McFARLAND: And that takes more 23 money. 24 WARDEN THOMPSON: Absolutely. And you 25 have to compete, you know, geographically. You have to Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 288 1 compete with just like any other business in a 2 geographic location. You have to bid the job for it, 3 and if you have saturated that job pool in that 4 particular geographic area, you gotta go outside of 5 that and you've got to find and recruit people and 6 relocate them. We have done that everywhere. I mean, 7 it's not a lack of trying on the Agency's part. It's 8 just a job market out there that we have to deal with. 9 That would be my one thing. That would solve a whole 10 bunch of problems. 11 MS. ELLIS: This has been extremely 12 enlightening for me to hear what it is that you need. 13 I think this is so important particularly coming from 14 your level. I certainly hope that you will have an 15 opportunity to obtain some of these items and be able 16 to carry on with your initiative toward Safe Prisons. 17 I have been impressed, as you know, and shared my -- 18 commend you on the great amount of work that you've 19 done in developing programs, training programs. I like 20 that kind of program. I think it's so helpful and 21 useful and important for training. I would leave with 22 you, as we draw to a close of our comments here, again 23 the importance of -- importance of training, as you 24 say, the importance of recruiting a high level of 25 employees to come to this very important work, always Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 289 1 the notion of safety for everyone, for the offenders, 2 and so importantly the safety for your employees and 3 environment that promotes reporting and an environment 4 that promotes growth and opportunity and job 5 satisfaction, I think, are important elements as well. 6 I sense your dedication and commitment to the work 7 you're doing. You're professionals and I wish you well 8 in Texas. 9 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Thank you. 10 MS. ELLIS: Thank you. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Let me just say, as I did 12 in my opening remarks, Texas Department of Criminal 13 Justice has the finest policies/procedures in any that 14 I have seen. You were one of the first to work with 15 national corrections on their PREA materials. We've 16 taken it seriously. You've hired people that -- PREA 17 coordinators in all your units. You have top 18 management that have made it crystal clear this 19 afternoon that they mean zero tolerance. There are no 20 winks or footnotes or asterisks about it, and 21 regardless of what the numbers are, there's a problem. 22 There's always going to be a problem with -- when you 23 have as many individuals who make bad choices all in a 24 confined area, so I just want to affirm you for the -- 25 keeping folks like us safe, doing, you know, a Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 290 1 frequently thankless job, not getting rich there in the 2 process. 3 I think your Peer Education Program 4 sounds great. I'm amazed at how many folks you got 5 through that and thirty or thirty-five at a time to 6 have 87,000 folks go through that program. I think 7 that's amazing. Particularly impressed, for what it's 8 worth, the way some of you all are using the cameras. 9 Warden Rodeen, I really like the -- your use of cameras 10 in areas outside the residential area where you can 11 protect your staff from false accusations of what might 12 have happened in the laundry room and the coat 13 closet, SSI. 14 And I would just close with encouraging 15 you to keep in mind that you all are the key. It 16 starts at the top, and if folks -- If your staff know 17 that you mean what the policy says and their job 18 performance will be judged accordingly in terms of how 19 safe things are in terms of sexual assault and security 20 in general, then it'll trickle down. And I encourage 21 you to not to make an example about anybody, but where 22 there is discipline necessary, that you don't allow 23 them to just kind of curtail the investigation and go 24 out the back door and nobody knows about the 25 implications, but somebody got prosecuted, somebody's Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 291 1 doing time or paying a $4,000 fine or had to resign 2 might be a real teachable moment to the staff. 3 And we didn't talk about porn, but I 4 think that a sexualized environment, from what we've 5 seen -- In other words, where obscene comments, jokes 6 and materials, stories, labels is permitted, then it 7 says two things. It says that we're not real quite 8 serious about zero tolerance and it tells the inmate, 9 "Why do I want to bother snitching about my situation 10 'cause evidently they don't -- they're laughing at the 11 same stuff and these correctional officers aren't going 12 to -- The brochures look good, but, no. I'm not going 13 to get protection." 14 Anyway, for all that's worth, I just want 15 to thank Mr. Livingston and Mr. Quarterman and all the 16 staff, each of you wardens. You have a lot on your 17 plate and I appreciate all the time and your patience 18 with us and your hospitality. Mr. Livingston, for your 19 Department for providing us information as quickly as 20 possible and documents and made our inquiry productive 21 and a lot easier, so I want to thank you all and wish 22 you well in your very important work. 23 WARDEN WILLIAMS: Thank you, sir. 24 WARDEN RODEEN: Thank you. 25 MR. McFARLAND: We are adjourned. Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 292 1 (Proceedings concluded at 5:17 p.m.) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 293 1 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE 2 PAGELINE CHANGE REASON 3 _____________________________________________________ 4 _____________________________________________________ 5 _____________________________________________________ 6 _____________________________________________________ 7 _____________________________________________________ 8 _____________________________________________________ 9 _____________________________________________________ 10 _____________________________________________________ 11 _____________________________________________________ 12 _____________________________________________________ 13 _____________________________________________________ 14 _____________________________________________________ 15 _____________________________________________________ 16 _____________________________________________________ 17 _____________________________________________________ 18 _____________________________________________________ 19 _____________________________________________________ 20 _____________________________________________________ 21 _____________________________________________________ 22 _____________________________________________________ 23 _____________________________________________________ 24 _____________________________________________________ 25 _____________________________________________________ Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 294 1 I,_______________________, have read the foregoing 2 deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is 3 true and correct, except as noted above. 4 ______________________ 5 Signature 6 7 THE STATE OF ______________) 8 COUNTY OF _________________) 9 Before me,__________________________ on this day 10 personally appeared __________________, known to me (or 11 proved to me under oath or through ___________) to 12 be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing 13 instrument and acknowledged to me that they executed 14 the same for the purposes and consideration therein 15 expressed. 16 Given under my hand and seal of this office this 17 _________ day of ________________, _______. 18 19 ________________________ NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR 20 THE STATE OF ___________ 21 22 23 24 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900 295 1 THE STATE OF TEXAS ) ) 2 COUNTY OF HARRIS ) 3 I, a court reporter, and a notary public 4 in and for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that 5 the matters set forth in the caption to the foregoing 6 deposition are true and correct; that the witness 7 appeared before me at the time and place set forth; 8 that said witness was first duly sworn to tell the 9 truth, and thereupon proceeded to testify in said 10 cause; that the questions of counsel and the answers of 11 the said witness were taken down in shorthand by me and 12 thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; 13 and that the foregoing pages comprise a true, correct 14 and complete transcript of the testimony given and the 15 proceedings had during the taking of said deposition. 16 I further certify that I am not counsel, 17 attorney or relative of either party, or otherwise 18 interested in the event of this suit. 19 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE on 20 this the 23rd day of June, 2008. 21 __________________________________ Esther V. Collins, a Notary Public 22 of the State of Texas 23 Commission Expires: 24 07/16/08 25 Q & A REPORTING, INC. (713) 467-7900