1 1 2 3 4 5 REVIEW PANEL ON PRISON RAPE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE 6 OFFICE OF JUSTICE PROGRAMS 7 8 HEARING ON RAPE AND STAFF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT IN U.S. PRISONS 9 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE HUNTSVILLE, TEXAS 10 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30, 2008 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 1 APPEARANCES 2 PANEL MEMBERS: 3 MR. STEVEN McFARLAND (PRESENT VIA TELEPHONE) Director 4 Task Force for a Faith-Based and Community Initiatives 5 U.S. Department of Justice 6 MS. CARROLL ANN ELLIS (PRESENT VIA TELEPHONE) Director 7 Fairfax County Police Department Victim Services 8 MR. WALTER RIDLEY (PRESENT VIA TELEPHONE) President and CEO 9 Ridley Group and Associates, LLC 10 MS. SHARON F. HOWELL Director of Legal Affairs/Office of General Counsel 11 Texas Department of Criminal Justice Huntsville, Texas 12 MR. RALPH BALES 13 Safe Prisons Program Manager 14 PANEL TESTIMONY 15 MR. JAY TIMOTHY MORGAN 16 Assistant Warden, Corrections Corporation of America Winnfield, Louisiana 17 MR. ALFONSO CASTILLO 18 Warden, Estelle Unit Huntsville, Texas 19 MR. NATHANIEL QUARTERMAN 20 Director Correctional Institutions Division 21 Texas Department of Criminal Justice Huntsville, Texas 22 23 24 25 3 11:13 1 MR. McFARLAND: Well, while we're waiting 2 on Mr. Quarterman and we're not on the record yet, let 3 me just introduce, via the mystery of telephone -- the 4 Panel consists of, to my right, Ms. Carroll Ann Ellis, 12:00 5 who some of you have met. Ms. Ellis is the director of 6 the Victims Services Division of the Fairfax County 7 Police Department, which is one of the largest in the 8 country. And to my left, the newest addition to the 9 Panel, we're very privileged to have Mr. Walter B. 12:00 10 Ridley, R-I-D-L-E-Y, and Mr. Ridley has an extensive 11 career in corrections about -- from every different 12 perspective, warden and director and everything in 13 between. So -- and my name is Steve McFarland and I am 14 the third member of this Panel. All of us have day 12:01 15 jobs, so this is something that we feel is important and 16 our purpose is to learn from you all what -- what can be 17 done, should be done, or should not be done to reduce 18 the incidence and likelihood of sexual assault by staff 19 or by inmates on inmates. Before we start, and let me 12:01 20 ask you, Sharon, is there -- do you think we should wait 21 for Mr. Quarterman? 22 MS. HOWELL: I think that we can probably 23 go ahead and proceed without him. I think we'll be 24 okay. I know he wants to be here and he is just on the 12:03 25 other side of the door and I believe he is on a phone 4 12:03 1 call that is impossible for him to get off of, but may I 2 ask you a question also before we proceed? 3 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 4 MS. HOWELL: We promised you at the last 12:03 5 hearing a number of documents. We have them gathered 6 and we have them printed out here in front of me but 7 each of them is capable of being transmitted to you in 8 electronic form. Which would you prefer? 9 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, electronic is fine. 12:03 10 MS. HOWELL: Okay. We'll take care of 11 this today. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Okay, great. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Do you solemnly swear or 14 affirm that the testimony you're about to give this 12:03 15 Panel will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 16 but the truth, so help you God? 17 WARDEN CASTILLO: I do. 18 WARDEN MORGAN: I do. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Again, my name is Steve 12:03 20 McFarland and I'm joined by the other two Panelists, 21 Mr. Ridley and Ms. Ellis. As you know, the National 22 Inmate Survey was taken in 2006. So let me ask, 23 Mr. Castillo, when did you become warden at the Estelle 24 Unit? 12:04 25 WARDEN CASTILLO: In March of '07. 5 12:04 1 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And have you 2 spoken to anyone in TDCJ about how the inmate survey was 3 taken in '06 at your unit? 4 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 12:04 5 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, then, I'm 6 going to -- for efficiency purposes, most of the 7 questions are going to be directed to the year 2006 just 8 to be fair to you all, because that is when the survey 9 was taken and that's why we're grateful to have 12:04 10 Mr. Morgan here. 11 Mr. Morgan, when were you the senior 12 warden at the Estelle Unit? 13 WARDEN MORGAN: I believe it was -- I'm 14 not sure of the month, but I'm going to say it was 2002 12:05 15 or 3, I believe, until February of 2007 is when I left, 16 retired. 17 MR. McFARLAND: All right. 18 WARDEN MORGAN: And I'm not positive of 19 that, but off the top of my head. 12:05 20 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Mr. Morgan, 21 how did you prepare for this hearing? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: I had received a -- some 23 information from the State that listed, just reviewed 24 some of the Safe Prison information and so forth just to 12:05 25 revive my memory. I have been gone a little over a 6 12:05 1 year. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Who have you 3 spoken with about this hearing? 4 WARDEN MORGAN: I have spoken to 12:05 5 Ms. Sharon Howell. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And -- and what 7 did Ms. Howell tell you about the purpose of this 8 hearing? 9 WARDEN MORGAN: Was that it was before 12:06 10 the Panel, I guess, liken to the PREA in our Safe Prison 11 Plan and you all had some questions about the survey 12 that had come up, that it was a number, and I have never 13 seen the survey but that it was quite a few inmates, I 14 assume, that had said that they had some type of a 12:06 15 sexual assault of some nature. I'm not sure. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Have you reviewed any 17 documents in preparation for this hearing? 18 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, I have. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Which ones? Could you 12:06 20 name them all, please? 21 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. I have got it 22 here. I have got a copy of our classification 23 procedure, Safe Prison Plan, an article from the 24 Huntsville Item, a summary of litigation and response to 12:07 25 a Step 1 Grievance. 7 12:07 1 MR. McFARLAND: So those sound like the 2 documents that we asked be in front of you for this 3 hearing? 4 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, I have got them 12:07 5 sitting right here. 6 MS. HOWELL: For the record, we provided 7 him with exactly those documents. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, that's great. I 9 appreciate that. What other documents, just in terms of 12:07 10 background, Mr. Morgan, have you had an opportunity to 11 review, if any? 12 WARDEN MORGAN: None, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And how about any 14 other witnesses, any folks who were on your staff in '06 12:07 15 or later, have you had a chance to talk with about their 16 recollection of how things go in the area of sexual 17 assault at Estelle? 18 WARDEN MORGAN: None, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: And, Mr. Castillo, let me 12:07 20 just ask you the same questions. What documents have 21 you had a chance to review other than the ones just 22 listed, and who have you spoken with to refresh your 23 recollection about the sexual assault issue at Estelle? 24 WARDEN CASTILLO: Same documents that 12:08 25 Mr. Morgan indicated, and I have talked to Captain 8 12:08 1 Jenkins and Captain Dawson. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. What did they have 3 to say? 4 WARDEN CASTILLO: They -- they actually 12:08 5 briefed me on the Panel hearing and testimony that they 6 had offered. 7 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Was legal 8 counsel present when you talked with them? 9 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 12:08 10 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Well, tell me what 11 they had to say. 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: They talked about 13 cameras that were being used, they talked about sexual 14 assaults, how could we curtail sexual assaults, 12:09 15 percentages of offender sexual assaults, why was it that 16 high at Estelle. 17 MR. McFARLAND: What did they -- did they 18 offer any explanations? 19 WARDEN CASTILLO: As far as? 12:09 20 MR. McFARLAND: Why they were so high at 21 Estelle, according to the survey? 22 WARDEN CASTILLO: No. What we talked 23 about is that was an inmate's survey. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. You still there? 12:09 25 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 9 12:09 1 MR. McFARLAND: And what about -- what 2 about it being an inmate survey? 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: Why -- why was it so 4 high? 12:09 5 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. What did they say 6 about that? 7 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, they indicated 8 that possibly what had -- why the numbers were high were 9 due to maybe strip searches, pat searches that were 12:09 10 conducted, maybe the way we reported incidents. 11 MR. McFARLAND: What else? 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: About inmates being 13 mis-housed on the unit. 14 MR. McFARLAND: What did they say about 12:10 15 that? Did they say that that has happened on occasion 16 at Estelle? 17 WARDEN CASTILLO: Oh, yeah. It does 18 happen, but they're not mis-housed -- they're housed 19 with the same custody level. 12:10 20 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll 21 get into that. What did Captain Jenkins or Captain 22 Dawson say was the most revealing or damaging thing that 23 came out of the hearing? What did they say, you know, 24 the real surprise we had or the, you know, the high 12:11 25 point or low point of the hearing came when -- fill in 10 12:11 1 the blank. 2 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, they didn't 3 indicate that to me, just why the percentage was so 4 high. 12:11 5 MR. McFARLAND: And other than -- and in 6 answer to that question, other than saying: Well, it 7 was an inmate survey and maybe it's the strip searches 8 or the pat-downs and maybe we're misclassifying some 9 folks on occasion, is it your testimony that they, 12:11 10 Captain Jenkins or Captain Dawson, didn't offer any 11 other suggestions as to why the number is so high? 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. All right. Well, 14 Mr. Morgan, what constitutes sexual assault by staff, in 12:11 15 your understanding? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, anytime that -- 17 well, there are several, I guess, different aspects that 18 you could look at. You're saying inmate-on-inmate or 19 staff? 12:12 20 MR. McFARLAND: Well, we're talking about 21 staff sexual assault of an inmate by staff. 22 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I would, of course 23 -- to me, if it were a sustained sexual assault, I would 24 classify that as making some type of penetration either 12:12 25 by the mouth or anus. 11 12:12 1 MR. McFARLAND: Uh-huh. 2 WARDEN MORGAN: In the case of 3 male-on-male. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Uh-huh. Is there 12:12 5 anything else that would constitute sexual assault by 6 staff, as you understand it, in -- 7 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, unless they were -- 8 some type of masturbation, possibly. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Is it a rule violation 12:12 10 for your staff at Estelle to have sexual contact with an 11 inmate even if it is consensual? 12 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Even if the staff and the 14 inmate, they both want it? 12:12 15 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm in Louisiana now, but 16 to my -- my recollection, it's a felony for that to 17 occur in the State of Texas. 18 MR. McFARLAND: All right. And when you 19 were warden at Estelle, if -- how many times did you 12:13 20 hear of a staff member sexually assaulting an inmate at 21 Estelle? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm familiar with -- 23 off -- to my recollection one time. 24 MR. McFARLAND: One time. So in the 12:13 25 period from 2002 to February of 2007, it's your 12 12:13 1 testimony that you heard of one staff sexual assault 2 incident; is that correct? 3 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. To my 4 recollection, I'm sitting here trying to remember if 12:13 5 there were any others, but yes, sir, that was and it was 6 turned over to the Office of Inspector General. 7 MR. McFARLAND: If this is a felony in 8 Texas, does that concern you when you heard about this 9 one incident, did that concern you? 12:14 10 WARDEN MORGAN: Very greatly. 11 MR. McFARLAND: So is it fair to say that 12 if there had been other felonies of any nature committed 13 by your staff in your five years as warden at Estelle, 14 it probably would come to mind; is that correct? 12:14 15 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 16 MR. McFARLAND: And with all due respect 17 and I -- and in no way -- this is just lawyer 18 requirement, but you're not under a doctor's order or 19 under any prescriptive medication at the time of this 12:14 20 hearing, are you, sir? 21 WARDEN MORGAN: No. Other than 22 cholesterol or high blood pressure medication. 23 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Well, you and 24 me both. 12:14 25 WARDEN MORGAN: All right. 13 12:14 1 MR. McFARLAND: All right. And again, I 2 am not impugning your credibility. I just -- I'm just 3 supposed to ask those sorts of things. 4 Do you believe, sir, that staff-on-inmate 12:15 5 sexual assault ever occurred more than once at -- well, 6 let me back up. Did you believe that that one reported 7 incident was true? 8 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, I do. 9 MR. McFARLAND: And why do you think 12:15 10 that? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, and I'm unsure if 12 this has gone to litigation or not, if I could consult 13 counsel before we discuss it? 14 MR. McFARLAND: Of course you can. 12:15 15 WARDEN MORGAN: I don't know if this has 16 ever gone to court or -- 17 MR. McFARLAND: Well, what is the name of 18 the complainant then? 19 WARDEN MORGAN: That's been a couple of 12:15 20 years ago and I don't remember. But the crux of the 21 issue was is that the complainant, which is the inmate, 22 withheld some DNA that was sent off, my understanding, 23 to DPS and it was tested and came back a positive match 24 for the DNA from the officer. 12:15 25 MR. McFARLAND: What else -- well, all 14 12:16 1 right. Do you believe that staff-on-inmate sexual 2 assault occurred at Estelle more than that one time 3 during your tenure? 4 WARDEN MORGAN: That's all that I'm aware 12:16 5 of, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: No, I'm asking what do 7 you suspect, as the chief executive officer of that 8 institution? Do you think that there was only one 9 occurrence? 12:16 10 WARDEN MORGAN: To my recollection and 11 that I can remember, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I understand that's 13 how many reported, and I'm not asking you to speculate 14 but I'm asking what your professional opinion is. Did 12:16 15 you suspect that this was the tip of the iceberg and 16 that there was more than one staff-on-inmate sexual 17 assault, be it consensual or nonconsensual, between 2002 18 and 2007? 19 WARDEN MORGAN: There -- you know, we -- 12:16 20 there may have been some female possibly but in -- to my 21 recollection, I -- we never had proof that it was going 22 on but that the possibility of that there were possibly 23 a female, and I'm not sure how many, but we had 24 suspected it possibly may have been done or could have 12:17 25 happened. 15 12:17 1 MR. McFARLAND: Now, given that Estelle 2 is an all-male inmate unit, you're suggesting that you 3 suspected that there may have been female staff who were 4 perpetrating sexual assault on inmates at Estelle; is 12:17 5 that what you are saying? 6 WARDEN MORGAN: That was information that 7 was being received. Now -- 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Who -- who gave 9 you that information? 12:17 10 WARDEN MORGAN: Sir, I don't -- I don't 11 remember that. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Where would you expect -- 13 who would you expect, what of your -- which of your 14 subordinates would you expect to tell you if a felony 12:17 15 was occurring by any of your correctional officers 16 against inmates during your tenure? 17 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, of course, our line 18 staff, a sergeant or a lieutenant or captain who is in 19 close contact that may suspect -- that may have, you 12:18 20 know, gotten information from an inmate or things of 21 that nature. I mean, I don't recall the specifics of 22 it. If ever we thought that there was any credence to 23 it at all, we would turn it over to the Office of 24 Inspector General. 12:18 25 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Well, you wouldn't 16 12:18 1 expect a line officer to come to your office, so -- 2 would you? 3 WARDEN MORGAN: That's never happened. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Right. What would be the 12:18 5 -- what was the protocol in 2006 at Estelle for 6 reporting by staff of suspected staff-on-inmate sexual 7 assault? 8 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, of course, all 9 staff in in-service and when we talked to them, even 12:18 10 when our Safe Prison coordinator would talk to the 11 turnouts, we always made it very clear that we had a 12 zero tolerance for, you know, any type of sexual assault 13 or strong-arm-type activity. Of course, it's not 14 tolerated and went over the signs and so forth for, you 12:19 15 know, people to recognize to help them understand to be 16 sure that they know what to report. And, of course, we 17 would most certainly trust that our staff would turn 18 that to their immediate supervisor for action to be 19 taken, for an investigation to be begun or for -- if 12:19 20 we had any inkling that it had happened, we most 21 certainly would remove that inmate and probably put him 22 on transient status and initiate an investigation and 23 possibly the assailant depending on what the situation 24 was. 12:19 25 MR. McFARLAND: Well, let's -- if you 17 12:19 1 would just walk me through, Mr. Morgan, the -- the 2 procedure that you understood would have been or should 3 have been used in 2006 if an inmate said to one of your 4 line officers: Hey, last night my cellie raped me. 12:20 5 What would be your expectation of the procedure? What 6 should that line officer do with that -- with that 7 inmate, with that information? Who should he or she go 8 to? What form should they fill out? What's the 9 procedure and how does it make its way or should have 12:20 10 made its way to your attention? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. Well, first of 12 all, if the officer, if they were on the cellblock, to 13 me, the officer should have taken the inmate immediately 14 then and went to the -- request a supervisor, advise the 12:20 15 supervisor of what had happened. Now, I have been gone 16 over a year. I'm not exactly sure what exactly each one 17 of the forms is called, but immediately an investigation 18 would be started. If it was during the day when our 19 upper management was there, I think it would be turned 12:21 20 over immediately to the captain, preferably to the 21 major, and the major would initiate an investigation, 22 place that person in, like I had said, in transit and 23 complete that information by a call of witnesses, you 24 know, any pertinent staff or anybody else that had any 12:21 25 information that would lead up to that. If there had 18 12:21 1 been an assailant or assailants identified, those people 2 as well would be isolated from the population. Upon 3 completion of that investigation, to go before a 4 committee and from the committee, they would make a 12:21 5 recommendation to say whether it was sustained. Of 6 course, during this process from the very beginning we 7 would have -- OIG would have been involved and gotten, 8 you know, into the investigation, too. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And at what point 12:22 10 would you expect to have been advised that this was 11 going on? 12 WARDEN MORGAN: Immediately. Even if it 13 was at night, I would expect my staff to call me at the 14 house to advise me of such. 12:22 15 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 16 WARDEN MORGAN: And, of course, if we 17 thought that it had -- if it was -- and if a medical 18 examination was required, we would -- I believe we 19 called it a, not a counselor but a person that we had 12:22 20 that would be the representative for the inmate during 21 that forensic -- 22 MR. McFARLAND: I think an advocate. 23 WARDEN MORGAN: There you go. I have 24 slept since then. I am remembering these things. 12:22 25 MR. McFARLAND: I understand. I 19 12:22 1 understand. Now, tell me what do you mean by the 2 witness -- or the victim would be placed in transit? 3 What does that mean? Where would they be placed? 4 WARDEN MORGAN: They would be isolated 12:22 5 away from other inmates, you know, for any type of 6 possibly ridicule or any further perpetration toward 7 that inmate in any way. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Sure enough. 9 WARDEN MORGAN: Or any type of 12:23 10 retaliation. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Physically, which 12 cellblock or which building would they be put in or 13 should they have been put in? 14 WARDEN MORGAN: I can't -- let me think. 12:23 15 I think it was -- I believe it was A Block or A Wing. I 16 believe that's our pre-hearing transient area over there 17 at Estelle. And I'm going by my memory on this. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Well, let me ask 19 Mr. Castillo. Mr. Castillo -- 12:23 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: -- if you heard this 22 morning that a sexual assault had occurred, where would 23 you expect your people to take the complainant? 24 WARDEN CASTILLO: Sir, that inmate would 12:23 25 most likely be housed on A Wing. 20 12:23 1 MR. McFARLAND: Is A Wing where you have 2 your administrative segregation or closed custody unit? 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. A Wing is a 4 separate housing and it houses -- a portion of it houses 12:24 5 pre-hearing detention, solitary, so it's away from the 6 general population. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Now, we had the 8 pleasure of an extensive tour and, I should say, Mr. 9 Castillo, that your staff were very, very accommodating 12:24 10 and helpful and a credit to your institution. We 11 enjoyed it and appreciate it very much. 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, thank you, sir. 13 It's a pleasure. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I don't know if it 12:24 15 was for them. (Laughter). But if you could just -- 16 because we have a general picture of the layout there, 17 where is the A Wing in relation to the RMF? 18 WARDEN CASTILLO: All right, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 12:24 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: If you come into my 21 unit -- and it's a telephone style -- you come into 22 central control, you take a right or you take a left. 23 Now, all those -- if you take a left and you take a 24 right, those are housing areas that you are going to be 12:25 25 passing by, but behind the major's office -- and there 21 12:25 1 is a disciplinary office, behind that is where A Wing is 2 located at. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Now, this is not 4 the same as the safekeeping wing; is that correct? 12:25 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Now, as I recall, 7 the safekeeping wing, as you come in the central office, 8 you would turn right? 9 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 12:25 10 MR. McFARLAND: And a stone's throw from 11 there on the right you -- would be the safekeeping -- 12 three-tiered safekeeping wing; is that right? 13 WARDEN CASTILLO: You're absolutely 14 correct. 12:25 15 MR. McFARLAND: Just after the infirmary? 16 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: What information would it 18 take, Mr. Morgan, in 2006, for your staff to decide to 19 put the alleged predator or assailant in some segregated 12:26 20 cell? 21 WARDEN MORGAN: You kind of broke up a 22 little bit, sir. Can you repeat the question? 23 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry. I think you 24 said earlier that you might or might not put the 12:26 25 assailant, if he had been identified, in isolation? 22 12:26 1 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 2 MR. McFARLAND: What would it take, what 3 kind of facts or information or testimony or proof would 4 it take for you or your staff to decide to put that 12:26 5 assailant in isolation? 6 WARDEN MORGAN: I would -- I would act on 7 it immediately, whether we believed it or not, until we 8 completed the investigation, to find out for sure. 9 MR. McFARLAND: So if the victim, in this 12:26 10 case, the inmate, said: Hey, Sergeant Jones raped me in 11 the second shift last night, you're going to do what to 12 the staff person because you're not really putting a 13 staff person in incarceration, are you? 14 WARDEN MORGAN: I don't have that 12:27 15 authority, sir. 16 MR. McFARLAND: No. So what would happen 17 if the assailant is a staff person? And that's what 18 we're talking about right now is staff-on-inmate sexual 19 assault. I understand the victim or alleged victim is 12:27 20 placed in transit or he's isolated in A Wing. What do 21 you expect should have been done to the staff person? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, what I would do, 23 sir, and probably would be common practice within the 24 department, would be, of course, we would gather all 12:27 25 that information, look at it, contact the Office of the 23 12:27 1 Inspector General since it involved staff, and we would 2 probably, depending on the recommendation from OIG, and 3 the director probably would be brought into that, either 4 to probably suspend him temporarily with pay or put him 12:28 5 into a non-contact position such as out on a picket or 6 whatever. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Is that like a -- 8 WARDEN MORGAN: That's one of the towers 9 on the outside. 12:28 10 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, yeah. All right. 11 Would you -- would you ever allow a staff person who is 12 accused of sexual assault to resign in lieu of further 13 investigation? 14 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 12:28 15 MR. McFARLAND: And why do you do that if 16 they have just committed a felony? 17 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I mean, if he wants 18 to resign, that's his right to do so, but keeping in 19 mind that that had been referred to OIG, and even though 12:28 20 he resigns does not mean that the charges or the issues 21 leave; I mean, they're still going to be there. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Do you, Mr. Morgan, 23 believe that the Estelle Unit had a serious problem with 24 sexual victimization in 2006? 12:29 25 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, in my opinion, sir, 24 12:29 1 if we have one, one is too many. You know, 2 unfortunately, I don't know the exact number that we had 3 by the survey or what the actual number was, but in my 4 opinion one is too many. There is not an acceptable 12:29 5 amount of number. You know, we had programs in place, 6 posters, educate our staff, our inmates aware that they 7 can come forth without fear of reprisal or retaliation, 8 and we most certainly take each complaint very 9 seriously. You know, I can't -- you know, as I, as any 12:29 10 other warden in this department, are going to try to run 11 a safe prison, you know, for the inmates to be there 12 during their incarceration, and we're going to do 13 everything we can to make sure that they leave safe and 14 that they have done their time and paid their penance to 12:30 15 society. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Morgan, you may have 17 already answered this. I don't remember if it was you 18 or Mr. Castillo, but have you had a chance to read the 19 Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report released 12:30 20 December 16, 2007 on sexual victimization in state and 21 Federal prisons reported by inmates in 2007? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: No, sir, I don't believe 23 I have. 24 MR. McFARLAND: All right. That report, 12:30 25 based on the survey of 26,000 inmates in 146 prisons, 25 12:30 1 including your own -- 2 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: -- indicated that for 4 every 1,000 inmates at Estelle in 2006, which had an 12:31 5 approximate population of 2,760, that 251 out of a 6 hundred -- out of a thousand, have reported that they 7 had some willing sexual misconduct with staff, and 129 8 out of a thousand said that they had unwilling sexual 9 conduct with staff. Assuming the accuracy of those 12:31 10 numbers, does that surprise you? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: How do you explain those 13 survey results? We've talked about what Captain Jenkins 14 and Dawson might have said, but how do you as a chief 12:31 15 executive officer at that time explain those kinds of 16 results? 17 WARDEN MORGAN: And you said 250 -- 18 MR. McFARLAND: Two hundred fifty-one out 19 of a thousand. In other words, they had eighty-four 12:32 20 percent response rate which was well above the national 21 rate, so eighty-four percent of the folks who were 22 invited randomly to testify did and your unit had the 23 highest incident rate of any prison in the country. 24 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 12:32 25 MR. McFARLAND: How do you explain those 26 12:32 1 numbers? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I -- I really 3 can't, sir. That really astounds me that it would be 4 that high. As I said, we have always encouraged staff 12:32 5 to report and we've always encouraged our inmates to 6 feel free to come forward and we most certainly take 7 every complaint very seriously and that quite frankly 8 is -- is stunning to me that it would be that high. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Well, Mr. Castillo, how 12:33 10 would you explain those survey results? 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: I was -- when I heard 12 about it, sir, I was actually stunned. I couldn't 13 believe that those numbers were that high. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Assuming that they are 12:33 15 accurate, or assuming they're half accurate and only 125 16 out of a thousand -- of every thousand inmates are 17 engaged in sexual assault, at least in 2006 with staff, 18 how would you explain that? What would be -- assuming 19 the accuracy of that or even half that figure, how would 12:33 20 you as the present warden explain how that could 21 possibly be? Where would you look? What would you 22 question? What are the questions? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: I would -- I would 24 certainly -- if I believed that those numbers were that 12:34 25 high, we have a management problem starting from the 27 12:34 1 bottom all the way to the top. That's the only way that 2 I could explain that, sir, that obviously correctional 3 staff, supervisors, majors, assistant wardens, and 4 wardens do not have or are not involved in their unit 12:34 5 operations. 6 MR. McFARLAND: So what have you done, 7 Mr. Castillo, in light of these survey numbers, if 8 anything, to improve the numbers at Estelle? 9 WARDEN CASTILLO: To -- to -- 12:35 10 MR. McFARLAND: What have you done in the 11 last four months to prevent a recurrence of this level 12 of prevalence of sexual assault at your unit? 13 WARDEN CASTILLO: I believe that we have 14 -- it was emphasized prior to my arrival during shift 12:35 15 briefings, and it's emphasized during in-service 16 training, but I think more than ever we have 17 reemphasized it during shift briefings and I even came 18 up with an idea. If you have time, I'll relay it to 19 you. 12:35 20 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, if you can go into 21 as much detail as you can, and I didn't understand what 22 kind of briefings you were saying there of being 23 reemphasized. 24 WARDEN CASTILLO: Those are shift 12:35 25 briefings. However, we had a meeting, it's been about a 28 12:35 1 month ago, and I discussed that there is a -- there is a 2 television set on every unit that was set up for Crime 3 Stoppers. We used to show Crime Stoppers to the inmate 4 population, and I provided an idea that maybe we could 12:36 5 show tapes on the prevention of sexual assaults, maybe a 6 five-minute tape, during the evenings that would be 7 played to the inmate population on TVs and that idea 8 will most likely be taken. 9 MR. McFARLAND: It hasn't -- it hasn't 12:36 10 been done yet? 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, but we -- they have 12 already -- the administration has sent out e-mails 13 requesting to know what would it take to set up those 14 TVs in motion. I know mine in my unit is set up already 12:36 15 to take a five-minute video that would be conducted on 16 the prevention of sexual assaults and we could show it. 17 MR. McFARLAND: What else, if anything, 18 has been done, to your knowledge, to avoid 19 staff-on-inmate or inmate-on-inmate sexual assault at 12:37 20 your unit? 21 WARDEN CASTILLO: Just emphasizing it 22 more, talking to inmates. As a senior warden or an 23 assistant warden or a major, you have to be very visible 24 within your unit. You cannot supervise a unit from a 12:37 25 corner office and I really believe in that. You have to 29 12:37 1 be involved. 2 MR. McFARLAND: How are you involved, 3 sir, in making yourself visible to inmates? 4 WARDEN CASTILLO: I have always been 12:37 5 involved. I didn't start being involved the last month, 6 but I have always been involved in that I'll go out and 7 I conduct inmate interviews, you're visible with your 8 staff, you're involved with your staff. I have even 9 stood out there in the middle of the hallway and 12:38 10 conducted pat searches myself. If I can conduct a pat 11 search, then your correctional staff and your 12 supervisors should be able to conduct pat searches. So 13 that sends a message to your staff that your 14 administration is involved. 12:38 15 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Morgan, how do you do? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Very well. 17 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Morgan, I am curious 18 about the atmosphere and the relationship that exists 19 within the -- or might have existed during your stay 12:38 20 before your retirement. 21 Was it your sense that there was a lot of 22 talk about sexual behavior between inmates and staff? 23 Did it ever come to your attention that this might have 24 been common behavior and that people typically talked 12:39 25 about those kinds of relationships or that kind of 30 12:39 1 behavior? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: No, ma'am. 3 MS. ELLIS: And I suppose I'm curious 4 because I do recall the discussion that we had with 12:39 5 Captain Jenkins and Captain Dawson when we were in 6 Texas. And we talked about gossip, just common gossip 7 that goes on in institutions and I believe, and of 8 course the record would bear me out on this, that they 9 did -- they did acknowledge that they were aware of the 12:39 10 gossip that does go on, particularly about female -- 11 female officers and male prisoners. Has that ever -- 12 does that have any meaning to you? Does that strike a 13 chord with you? 14 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I think in any 12:40 15 business, especially if it's a large group of people, 16 there is going to be people who are going to gossip, 17 ma'am, whether it's in prison or at Wal-mart. I myself 18 don't participate in gossip, and I -- no one -- I'm not 19 joining in with that type of -- you know, unless we have 12:40 20 got factual information to deal with. I mean, 21 especially in a prison setting, a lot of times the 22 inmates will start things and get gossip going just to 23 get things started and just to perpetuate the issues, 24 but as far as me participating in gossip, no, ma'am, I 12:40 25 hadn't done that. 31 12:40 1 MS. ELLIS: I wasn't necessarily 2 suggesting that you were participating in it. I was 3 just wondering if you -- 4 MR. McFARLAND: Heard it. 12:40 5 MS. ELLIS: -- were aware and heard it 6 and could somehow draw from that that there might be a 7 particular atmosphere that exists there in the prison 8 regarding such matters? 9 WARDEN MORGAN: No, ma'am, no more than 12:41 10 what we had talked about earlier where during my tenure 11 there that there was some, you know, information that 12 possibly that some females were having inappropriate 13 relationships and where that -- you know, what had taken 14 place, I don't know other than to really phrase it as an 12:41 15 inappropriate relationship. 16 MS. ELLIS: I see. What did you -- what 17 did you see as your biggest challenge in implementing 18 PREA during your stay there? 19 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, in our department 12:41 20 even before PREA had come, I mean sexual assault in -- 21 in our environment is a very serious issue. We have 22 always tried to talk to staff as long as I have been in 23 corrections about that it's an unacceptable act and that 24 it is to be reported immediately and to take action. 12:42 25 MS. ELLIS: What was your guidance or 32 12:42 1 what were your procedures in terms of officers chancing 2 upon two inmates involved in sexual behavior? 3 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, that's a violation 4 of the rules and they would be written up for sexual 12:42 5 misconduct, and of course, they probably would be taken 6 from there to pre-hearing detention, awaiting the 7 investigation and their disciplinary action to be gone 8 to Court. 9 MS. ELLIS: What do you see as an 12:42 10 inmate's greatest fear in being incarcerated? What is 11 it that they dread? 12 WARDEN MORGAN: I think probably just 13 the -- especially a smaller person being in that 14 environment with that strong of personalities and people 12:43 15 that are there. It's a lot of people that are -- you 16 know, that are in prison and just to be alone and you 17 don't know anybody and to have to walk into those -- 18 those issues and to have to deal with them to fit in -- 19 into the culture of the prison. 12:43 20 MS. ELLIS: So fitting into the culture 21 of the prison? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, ma'am. 23 MS. ELLIS: Are you aware that some time 24 ago there was a study that addressed that very issue and 12:43 25 it was found that most male prisoners fear being raped? 33 12:43 1 WARDEN MORGAN: I could understand that, 2 ma'am. 3 MR. RIDLEY: Good afternoon, sir. 4 WARDEN MORGAN: How are you, sir? 12:43 5 MR. RIDLEY: Very well, thank you. Just 6 a few questions for you. 7 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 8 MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Morgan, how long have 9 you been in corrections? 12:43 10 WARDEN MORGAN: I retired last year. I 11 think twenty-eight and a half years, almost 12 twenty-nine years. 13 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Mr. Castillo? 14 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 12:44 15 MR. RIDLEY: How long have you been in 16 corrections? 17 WARDEN CASTILLO: Twenty-four and a half 18 years, sir. 19 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Couple of follow-up 12:44 20 questions to that. In prison work, you develop 21 intelligence resources? 22 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 23 MR. RIDLEY: Let me ask you: Did any of 24 your intelligence reveal to you allegations of sexual 12:44 25 assault by either staff or inmates during the course of 34 12:44 1 your service? 2 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, staff. 3 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. What were they? Give 4 me a couple instances. 12:44 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, if you conduct 6 interviews and when you talk to the inmate population, 7 at times they'll tell you that officer so-and-so is 8 having a relationship with an inmate. Now, do you 9 believe everything you hear? No, you don't. However, 12:45 10 if you hear it over and over and over, there could be 11 some validity to those allegations. So what happens is 12 that you start looking at this person and maybe have a 13 conversation with their supervisor: Hey, you might want 14 to take a look at this person and gather some 12:45 15 information, some intelligence, pass it over to the 16 Office of the Inspector General until the allegations 17 can be proven. And in my experience, if you give it a 18 little time, most likely they will fall into that trap. 19 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. 12:45 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: So it's all about 21 intelligence. 22 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Do you have an 23 investigative unit in your institution? 24 WARDEN CASTILLO: The Office of the 12:46 25 Inspector General. 35 12:46 1 MR. RIDLEY: That's housed within your 2 institution? 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: There is an 4 investigator based out of my unit. 12:46 5 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. So potentially if you 6 heard those allegations or rumors and you had reliable 7 sources of information, which we do in this business, 8 right? 9 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 12:46 10 MR. RIDLEY: You would allow your 11 investigative team to become engaged and provide you 12 with some findings or conclusions or recommendations? 13 WARDEN CASTILLO: Recommendations. 14 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Okay. Have you ever 12:46 15 had an occasion to do that since you have been at 16 Estelle? 17 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, I can give you an 18 incident that occurred last week. I had a warden from a 19 private unit that's located in the Livingston area call 12:47 20 the unit and speak to a lieutenant, and he wanted to see 21 if we could conduct a cell search of a particular inmate 22 because the officer, one of his employees was -- had 23 established a relationship while she worked for the 24 Texas Department of Criminal Justice at the Gibb Lewis 12:47 25 Unit. So we assisted him. We conducted a cell search 36 12:47 1 of the inmate's property and we found pictures of her. 2 The inmate indicated to us that she had had a sexual 3 relationship with him and that she was pregnant with his 4 child. So I forwarded the information to the warden and 12:48 5 I also advised our Office of the Inspector General, my 6 investigator that is based on my unit, and yesterday he 7 conducted an investigation with the inmate and the 8 inmate told him that that, in fact, had occurred, so 9 he'll be -- he will pursue that. 12:48 10 MR. RIDLEY: "He," the OIG investigator? 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. His next 12 step will be to pursue it in free world charges if they 13 were substantiated. 14 MR. RIDLEY: Against whom? 12:48 15 WARDEN CASTILLO: Against the former 16 employee. 17 MR. RIDLEY: The female/now pregnant 18 officer? 19 WARDEN CASTILLO: Right. She has already 12:48 20 had the child. 21 MR. RIDLEY: And is she still an employee 22 of TDCJ? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: No. She was a former 24 employee but she was now assigned to the private unit, a 12:49 25 private unit that is located in Livingston, Texas. She 37 12:49 1 does not work for the Texas Department of Criminal 2 Justice. 3 MR. RIDLEY: All right. So who called 4 from Livingston to your unit with this intelligence? 12:49 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: The senior warden. 6 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. So Livingston's 7 senior warden says: Hey, I've got a former employee of 8 yours down here who just gave birth to a -- recently to 9 a child and I have reason to believe the father is one 12:49 10 of your inmates; is that right? 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: That's correct. 12 MR. RIDLEY: And to corroborate this, you 13 might want to do a cell search of who turns out to be 14 the father? 12:49 15 WARDEN CASTILLO: He told us if we would 16 be able to conduct a cell search and see if we could 17 find pictures of her or either correspondence. And we 18 were able to find pictures, find the correspondence, and 19 not only that, but the inmate admitted to us that he had 12:50 20 had a sexual relationship while she was a correctional 21 staff member at the Gibb Lewis Unit, which is a Texas 22 Department of Criminal Justice. 23 MR. RIDLEY: Have you ever used snitches? 24 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, I don't like to 12:50 25 call them snitches but informants. 38 12:50 1 MR. RIDLEY: Yeah, okay. 2 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. I mean you 3 get all kinds of information. 4 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Have you cultivated 12:50 5 your informant process to the fact that they give you 6 reliable information? 7 WARDEN CASTILLO: Sir, there are inmates 8 out there that will provide you with reliable 9 information, and then there are some inmates that will 12:51 10 not provide you with reliable information but they give 11 you this information to think that they're doing 12 something constructive. 13 MR. RIDLEY: But have you cultivated your 14 informants so that they give you reliable information? 12:51 15 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 16 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Have any of your 17 reliable informants shared with you information about 18 the sexual assaults either by staff-on-inmates, 19 inmates-on-inmates during your tenure at Estelle? 12:51 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir, not 21 inmates-on-inmates. But like I said, they will tell you 22 that so-and-so -- officer so-and-so is having a 23 relationship, but as far as having a sexual 24 relationship, no, sir, not while I have been at Estelle. 12:51 25 MR. RIDLEY: Do you have a homosexual 39 12:51 1 population at Estelle? 2 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir, any given 3 unit has a homosexual population. 4 MR. RIDLEY: Any issues with that 12:52 5 population as it relates to sexual assaults? 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 7 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. What kind of inmates 8 are the most vulnerable to sexual assault by other 9 inmates? 12:52 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: Your safekeeping. 11 MR. RIDLEY: And who are the kind of 12 folks that you want to put in safekeeping? 13 WARDEN CASTILLO: Weaker, vulnerable 14 inmates are the ones that you want to put in 12:52 15 safekeeping. 16 MR. RIDLEY: And what makes somebody 17 vulnerable besides their stature or lack thereof? 18 WARDEN CASTILLO: Homosexuality. 19 MR. RIDLEY: So if you have got 12:52 20 homosexuals at Estelle Unit on every block, I think you 21 just testified, then you have got some vulnerable 22 individuals on every block; is that correct? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. The 24 possibility exists, yes, sir. 12:53 25 MR. RIDLEY: And what are you doing about 40 12:53 1 them? If they're vulnerable and they're still in the 2 general population, aren't they a sexual assault waiting 3 to happen? 4 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, if they bring it 12:53 5 up to our attention, we're going to take the appropriate 6 measures. 7 MR. RIDLEY: Well, if you don't -- if you 8 know that an inmate is homosexual, then is it fair to 9 say that everybody in the general population knows that 12:53 10 he is gay; is that correct? There is not going to be a 11 secret? 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: That would be safe to 13 assume, yes, sir. 14 MR. RIDLEY: Yeah. So if everybody in -- 12:53 15 if 2,800 inmates know that this guy is homosexual in 16 orientation, then isn't it fair to say that everybody in 17 the general population considers this person vulnerable 18 and fresh meat? 19 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir, could happen. 12:54 20 MR. RIDLEY: And so given that the TDCJ 21 has a zero tolerance policy for sexual assault, does 22 that lead you to want to do some preventative measures 23 so that you safe keep vulnerable individuals before they 24 get raped, not after you learn about it? 12:54 25 WARDEN CASTILLO: But we do that, sir, at 41 12:54 1 times. 2 MR. RIDLEY: At times. 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: If -- as an 4 administrator, if you believe that the inmate is going 12:54 5 to have problems in your general population, the best 6 thing that you can do is to classify him into a 7 safekeeping status. 8 MR. RIDLEY: As I recall, safekeeping is 9 physically identical to any other general population 12:54 10 cellblock; isn't that right? 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 12 MR. RIDLEY: And so if you fill up those 13 three tiers in your current safekeeping, you can 14 designate any other parts of cellblocks to be 12:55 15 safekeeping; isn't that correct? So you're never going 16 to run out of safekeeping cells; isn't that right? 17 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 18 MR. RIDLEY: So if there is a limitless 19 supply of safekeeping cells, why wouldn't you put every 12:55 20 known homosexual inmate in safekeeping before they get 21 raped? 22 WARDEN CASTILLO: The inmate could 23 possibly indicate to you that he does not want to go to 24 safekeeping. 12:55 25 MR. RIDLEY: All right. That's fair 42 12:55 1 enough. Any other reason why you wouldn't do that 2 preventative safekeeping? 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 4 MS. ELLIS: We're going to change 12:56 5 genders. 6 MR. RIDLEY: This is Mr. Castillo that we 7 have been speaking with, isn't that correct? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 9 MR. RIDLEY: Now, can I just back up and 12:56 10 ask Mr. Morgan, you have heard this testimony and we can 11 go over all the same questions but maybe just in terms 12 of efficiency, is there anything that you've heard 13 that -- about the Estelle Unit thus far about the use of 14 intelligence and knowing about homosexuals and 12:56 15 cultivating your snitches and so forth that was 16 different at Estelle in '06? 17 WARDEN MORGAN: Would you remind -- would 18 you ask the questions again so I -- 19 MR. RIDLEY: Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm just 12:56 20 trying -- that's a very compound question. 21 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, you're covering 22 a lot of things in a lump there. 23 MR. RIDLEY: Yes, I sure am. All right. 24 I'll back up then. When you were a warden, did you have 12:56 25 sources of intelligence, informants that you cultivated 43 12:57 1 and you considered credible? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: What do you mean by 3 cultivated? 4 MR. RIDLEY: Encouraged. You didn't 12:57 5 punish them when they came forward with information but 6 rather rewarded it in some manner so that there was an 7 incentive for people to tell you before a felony occurs 8 rather than after? 9 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, when we're talking 12:57 10 about an informant, I mean in my dealings with 11 informants I don't promise anybody anything. 12 MR. RIDLEY: Yeah. 13 WARDEN MORGAN: If someone gives 14 information, they are giving it of their own free 12:57 15 volition and then we take it from there and consider 16 whether or not it is a viable issue or not. 17 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. 18 WARDEN MORGAN: You know, I'm just not 19 going to take the word of anybody that comes up or I'm 12:57 20 going to give you something in return. I don't do that. 21 MR. RIDLEY: Yeah. Yeah. All right. In 22 your twenty-nine years of experience in corrections, 23 what reasons do inmates have for giving intelligence 24 about other inmates or about staff? 12:58 25 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, it's been my 44 12:58 1 experience that inmates that come forward, sometimes 2 they are doing the right thing, that they want to do 3 what is right and -- or don't want to see someone get 4 stabbed or sexually assaulted or strong-armed or 12:58 5 whatever. I mean, our inmates, some of our inmates do 6 do the right things. 7 MR. RIDLEY: And so did you ever punish 8 anybody for telling you about -- about felonies or 9 sexual assaults or rule infractions? 12:58 10 WARDEN MORGAN: I don't understand your 11 question. 12 MR. RIDLEY: When you were warden at 13 Estelle, did people come to you and say: I think 14 officer so-and-so is involved with so-and-so inmate 12:59 15 sexually? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: No, sir, not to my 17 recollection, no. 18 MR. RIDLEY: Did any of your staff come 19 to you and say: I have heard from an inmate who I 12:59 20 consider to be reliable that something is going on 21 between a staff and an inmate? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: To my recollection, there 23 may have been a few times that a supervisor may have 24 come to me and said that he had heard now, you know, 12:59 25 that this may or may not have been going on, and anytime 45 12:59 1 that occurred, we always referred that to the Office of 2 the Inspector General because they also have quite a few 3 informants that they work with so that they have a piece 4 of the puzzle and they know also what is going on so 12:59 5 that we can monitor the situation. 6 MR. RIDLEY: In 2006, Mr. Morgan, the 7 Estelle Unit had 151 -- according to your department's 8 information, had 151 incidents of staff or employee 9 discipline and -- at Estelle. 13:00 10 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 11 MR. RIDLEY: And of those 151, not a 12 single one was a 42D rule violation, namely sexual 13 misconduct with an offender. Do you think that is an 14 accurate figure or do you think, well, you might have 13:00 15 missed a few? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I'm not going to 17 say it's perfect. You know, anybody can come up and 18 make an allegation. Whether the allegation is 19 substantiated or not is the issue that you have to come 13:00 20 up with that you can pursue an investigation on an 21 employee. You know, there is a lot of times that an 22 inmate may be just doing that just for retribution 23 against an employee for whatever reason, from 24 disciplinary to whatever. 13:01 25 MR. RIDLEY: Sure. 46 13:01 1 WARDEN MORGAN: And I think you would 2 agree, but, you know -- and there have been times that 3 we may have thought there may have possibly been 4 something there but there wasn't enough to prove it to 13:01 5 take action but, you know, what few of those that came 6 up, we always pursued it and -- again, through our 7 branch, of our investigative branch would be the Office 8 of the Inspector General. 9 MR. RIDLEY: Well, do you agree, 13:01 10 Mr. Morgan, with Mr. Castillo's testimony a couple 11 minutes ago that if they kept hearing over and over and 12 over that some staff, an officer might be having a 13 relationship, that maybe they might want to take a look 14 into it and refer it to OIG; is that the way things were 13:01 15 at Estelle in '06? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Oh, yes, sir. We didn't 17 have to hear it over and over, sir. As I -- I believe I 18 said earlier, anytime we got information, we always gave 19 it to our office of Inspector General so that they -- 13:02 20 whether we could substantiate it at that time or not so 21 that they knew exactly what was going on, and that 22 through their channels and avenues that they may have 23 that we don't, that they could also be monitoring for 24 that situation. 13:02 25 MR. RIDLEY: All right. In '06, were 47 13:02 1 there homosexuals in your inmate population at Estelle? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 3 MR. RIDLEY: And what did you do with 4 them if -- if you knew that they were a homosexual? Did 13:02 5 they go -- did you put them all in safekeeping unless 6 they asked not to be? 7 WARDEN MORGAN: Those that had been 8 identified and I believe approved through the Bureau of 9 Classification to be placed into safekeeping status. 13:02 10 MR. RIDLEY: Well, that's my question is 11 who got into safekeeping status and why, and then I'm 12 specifically just talking about folks who -- well, let 13 me back up. 14 Do you agree that a homosexual, a known 13:02 15 homosexual is vulnerable to sexual assault at Estelle? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Any inmate is vulnerable 17 to assault. 18 MR. RIDLEY: Yeah. Is a known homosexual 19 more likely to be targeted than any average prisoner? 13:03 20 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I mean -- and I 21 have been in the business almost thirty years. I have 22 seen people that were in prison that were homosexuals, 23 was not practicing that lifestyle while they were in 24 prison, and they functioned very well and had no 13:03 25 problems. 48 13:03 1 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Well, I believe you 2 testified earlier, Mr. Morgan, that one rape is too 3 many. So I'm assuming that when you were warden at 4 Estelle in '06, you were committed to zero tolerance; is 13:03 5 that right? 6 WARDEN MORGAN: You're correct. 7 MR. RIDLEY: All right. Then you must 8 have some idea of the kinds of inmates that were more 9 likely to be victimized than others, right? 13:04 10 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, yes, sir. 11 MR. RIDLEY: People that are small of 12 stature, people that are perceived to be gay or are, in 13 fact, gay; is that correct? Those folks are a part of 14 the profile of someone who is more likely than the 13:04 15 average prisoner to get assaulted sexually? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, I suppose that 17 is true. 18 MR. RIDLEY: Isn't that indeed part of 19 your Safe Prison Plan training that you give your staff, 13:04 20 you know, what kind of inmate is more vulnerable, you 21 know, who to look out for? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: Correct. 23 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. So given your 24 understanding of who is vulnerable, who are the most 13:04 25 likely candidates, not guaranteed but the more likely 49 13:04 1 than not to be your victims, if you knew an individual 2 was a known homosexual, did you wait until they claimed 3 to have been assaulted before you would put them in 4 safekeeping or did you do it preventively? 13:05 5 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, we -- I -- you 6 know, if someone is functioning out in the population, I 7 mean again, as I said awhile ago, just because they're a 8 homosexual doesn't mean that they have to be on 9 safekeeping. From what I hear you saying is that every 13:05 10 homosexual should be on safekeeping. Is that your 11 point? 12 MR. RIDLEY: No, I'm not making any point 13 because I'm just asking questions here. 14 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm with you. 13:05 15 MR. RIDLEY: You know, you're the expert 16 on this, so -- 17 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 18 MR. RIDLEY: What type of staff are most 19 likely to commit sexual misconduct with an inmate? 13:05 20 What's your assessment? 21 WARDEN MORGAN: Repeat your question, 22 please, sir. 23 MR. RIDLEY: What is the profile of your 24 staff member that you would suspect would be more likely 13:06 25 than the average staff member to get involved sexually 50 13:06 1 with an inmate? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, possibly someone 3 who has recently gotten a divorce, someone with low 4 self-esteem possibly. 13:06 5 MR. RIDLEY: Did you have anybody like 6 that in '06 at Estelle on your staff? 7 WARDEN MORGAN: I think there was a whole 8 lot of them in the world. 9 MR. RIDLEY: Yeah. No, well, my question 13:06 10 is about Estelle in '06? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: I would suppose yes, sir. 12 MR. RIDLEY: Well, I don't want you to 13 guess. Do you have reason to believe that you had staff 14 in '06 at Estelle who were recently divorced or were -- 13:06 15 had suffered from low self-esteem sufficient to make 16 them consider getting involved sexually with an inmate? 17 WARDEN MORGAN: I could not give you a 18 specific person, no, sir. 19 MR. RIDLEY: That wasn't my question. 13:07 20 WARDEN MORGAN: Okay. 21 MR. RIDLEY: Did you as the chief 22 executive officer at Estelle in 2006 have reason to 23 believe that you had those kinds of people on your 24 staff? 13:07 25 WARDEN MORGAN: There could have possibly 51 13:07 1 been, yes, sir. 2 MR. RIDLEY: And did you take any action 3 to make sure that those possible assailants didn't work 4 in a position to get involved sexually with an inmate at 13:07 5 your unit? 6 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I -- just because 7 someone had just had a divorce, I wouldn't necessarily 8 call them an assailant, but -- 9 MR. RIDLEY: That's true. 13:07 10 WARDEN MORGAN: You know, we have an 11 employee assistance program within the department and 12 anybody -- our supervisors always encourage to -- if 13 someone is having any type of problems, family, divorce, 14 any types of problems like that, that those programs are 13:08 15 there for their assistance if they need it. 16 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Morgan, would those two 17 qualifications apply to males and females, recently 18 divorced, low self-esteem? 19 WARDEN MORGAN: Possibly, yes, ma'am. I 13:08 20 could possibly see that, yes, ma'am. 21 MS. ELLIS: Are there any others that 22 come to mind when you think about characteristics of a 23 person who might get involved with an inmate? 24 WARDEN MORGAN: Just sitting here 13:08 25 thinking, those are the only two that I can think of 52 13:08 1 right now, ma'am. 2 MR. RIDLEY: How about -- what about 3 their sexual orientation? 4 WARDEN MORGAN: Would you explain? 13:08 5 MR. RIDLEY: Did you ever have a gay 6 staff member in '06 at Estelle? 7 WARDEN MORGAN: I don't know. I couldn't 8 tell you, sir. 9 MR. RIDLEY: When you were warden in '06, 13:09 10 did you ever hear from any source, be it a staff or 11 inmate, that you had a homosexual on your staff? 12 WARDEN MORGAN: No, sir. To my 13 recollection no one ever told me that, no, sir. 14 MR. RIDLEY: How do you create a culture 13:09 15 in Estelle of reporting rather than some code of silence 16 among staff? 17 WARDEN MORGAN: As far as reporting 18 sexual assault? 19 MR. RIDLEY: Yes, sir. 13:09 20 WARDEN MORGAN: Again, we go over this in 21 our pre-service, in-service, shift turnout meetings we 22 talk about it. They receive, I think, at least a half 23 hour of the Safe Prisons Program in in-service I -- it's 24 one of them. And our officers, I believe when they come 13:10 25 in, I think in pre-service it's four hours that they 53 13:10 1 receive in reference to those issues and so forth, and 2 as I said, sir, we've always taken it quite serious and 3 we -- and as Mr. Castillo had said earlier, you have to 4 be available to your staff and as well as the inmates. 13:10 5 I myself as the warden spent a lot of time in the back 6 visiting with staff, visiting with inmates for an open 7 line of communication and encouraging a line of 8 communication. To create a good culture within the 9 prison population, those are the types of things that 13:10 10 need to happen. 11 MR. RIDLEY: Were there any tests 12 administered to your staff on their understanding of the 13 pre-service or in-service training they received about 14 sexual assault? Were they tested on this? 13:11 15 WARDEN MORGAN: I know -- I know that 16 they are tested but that I'm unsure of, sir. I don't 17 recall. 18 MR. RIDLEY: Yeah. And what happened if 19 they flunked? 13:11 20 WARDEN MORGAN: I would suppose they 21 would have to retake that session again. 22 MR. RIDLEY: Was it considered if their 23 -- in decisions for promotion of staff, their 24 performance on PREA-related tests or quizzes? 13:11 25 WARDEN MORGAN: No, sir, not that I'm 54 13:11 1 aware of. 2 MS. ELLIS: Mr. Castillo, are you 3 satisfied that your staff has been adequately trained 4 regarding PREA? 13:11 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: Somewhat, but you could 6 always use additional training. 7 MR. RIDLEY: But isn't it fair that you 8 can motivate folks a little bit better if there are 9 consequences to sleeping through the training? In other 13:12 10 words, it has implications for their promotion, that 11 will get their attention real quick, won't it? 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. Another 13 thing that I might want to interject is that most times 14 nowadays when an employee applies for a promotion, on a 13:12 15 promotion board most likely what you are going to see is 16 PREA-related questions. That has occurred. That has 17 happened many times. 18 MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Morgan, if a staff 19 member wanted to get away with a sexual relationship or 13:13 20 encounter at Estelle, when and where would they do it? 21 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, you know, I don't 22 know of a specific time. You know, anywhere, I would 23 suppose, that it's an isolated area that a person is 24 left alone, you know, where there is not as many -- 13:13 25 staff intensive and there is not very many people around 55 13:13 1 and I would assume probably at night would be -- or late 2 at night when there is less staff, a lot of your -- your 3 upper administration and so forth is not there, you 4 know, possibly in the kitchen or laundry, too, you know, 13:13 5 they are just areas that are out of the way. 6 MR. McFARLAND: In addition to the 7 kitchen or laundry, where else would you want to -- 8 well, do you think are the more vulnerable or dangerous 9 areas for either staff-on-inmate or inmate-on-inmate 13:14 10 sexual activity? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: Closets maybe. You know, 12 any -- anytime when you have an administrative 13 segregation, the high-security type where you have got 14 inmates that are in cells that are locked up, you know, 13:14 15 rounds have to be made every thirty minutes to check on 16 everybody and, you know, that's why -- one of those 17 reasons why we are making those rounds to be sure that 18 everybody is okay and if there is anything going on or 19 that's, you know, that's not within the rules and 13:14 20 regulations that we address those issues. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Isn't it true that you 22 could have a couple inmates in the meat cutting locker, 23 in the kitchen prep area, for up to thirty minutes 24 unsupervised without a correctional officer present and 13:15 25 with no windows into that facility? 56 13:15 1 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, I suppose 2 that's a possibility. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Castillo, is that 4 still a possibility? 13:15 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir, it could 6 happen. 7 MR. McFARLAND: And in the laundry, do 8 you still have just three officers supervising the 9 laundry during the first shift? 13:15 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 11 MR. McFARLAND: And you can have how many 12 inmates in there working with -- working around those 13 large washers and dryers? 14 WARDEN CASTILLO: Approximately sixty 13:15 15 inmates. 16 MR. McFARLAND: There are lots of spaces 17 around those -- around that equipment where they would 18 not be in view of any of those three officers; isn't 19 that true? 13:15 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: If -- if you had the 22 wherewithal to put in more video cameras, where would 23 you put them? 24 WARDEN CASTILLO: Those would be ideal 13:16 25 areas to put cameras on. Your housing areas, your 57 13:16 1 laundry service, your kitchen areas, commissary in the 2 kitchen, but also we shouldn't forget housing areas. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Tell me more about the 4 housing area. Where would you want to put video cameras 13:16 5 in the housing areas? 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: On the runs. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Do you have any now? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: In the day rooms. Yes, 9 high-security has video cameras. 13:16 10 MR. McFARLAND: High-security as in the 11 Ad-Seg? 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: The Ad-Seg, yes, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, I saw those, but 14 you don't have any in -- in the general population? 13:16 15 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 16 MR. McFARLAND: So on none of those tiers 17 that we saw are there video cameras even on the runs? 18 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: And there are obviously 13:17 20 no cameras looking into what is happening in the cells, 21 right? 22 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: How about on the runs of 24 the safekeeping cells? 13:17 25 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 58 13:17 1 MR. McFARLAND: Where else would you -- 2 let me ask that of Mr. Morgan. Mr. Morgan, if you had 3 had the opportunity to install more cameras, where would 4 you want to put them in order to prevent sexual 13:17 5 assaults? 6 WARDEN MORGAN: I would -- I would go 7 along with Mr. Castillo, what -- the recommendations 8 that he had made. Possibly in the reception area where 9 the inmates come in from the chain, probably in that 13:17 10 area, too. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Do you have the -- in 12 '06, did you have enough staff available to monitor more 13 video cameras if you had had them? 14 WARDEN MORGAN: Possibly, depending on 13:18 15 how it was set up. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Well, how would it need 17 to be set up for you to pull it off? 18 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, if you put that 19 many cameras up, you are going to have to have a big 13:18 20 bank of cameras somewhere -- 21 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 22 WARDEN MORGAN: -- for staff to observe 23 and watch what is going on and, you know, the control 24 picket would be a place. But, you know, back in the 13:18 25 kitchen, I would say you'd almost have to have a staff 59 13:18 1 member monitoring in those areas, in that general area 2 where the cameras are located at. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Now, Mr. Castillo, the 4 video cameras that you do have, are those recorded or 13:18 5 live monitored only? 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: Live monitored. 7 MR. McFARLAND: You don't keep -- you 8 don't videotape what is going on in the high-security 9 runs? 13:19 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Do you think that would 12 be a good idea to -- so that you didn't have to have 13 officers monitoring continuously live feed but you could 14 -- you could have the feed, you know, videotaped and 13:19 15 then fast forwarded, or for proof purposes you could go 16 back and say: Oh, at 2 a.m., son of a gun, the officer 17 Smith is, in fact, going into the closet with inmate 18 Jones? 19 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir, that would be 13:19 20 an excellent idea. 21 MR. McFARLAND: What is keeping you from 22 being able to do that, dollars? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, I don't know -- 24 Mr. Quarterman. 13:20 25 MR. McFARLAND: Well, you've got -- we 60 13:20 1 heard from Mr. Quarterman and Mr. Livingston that it's 2 one of the highest priorities of TDCJ is to no longer be 3 labeled with these kinds of survey numbers and I -- and 4 my question to you, Mr. Castillo, is how high a priority 13:20 5 would it be for you to -- 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: That would be a Number 7 1 priority. 8 MR. McFARLAND: How you all doing? I got 9 -- we've got more questions, but I don't want to make 13:20 10 this an endurance contest. Anybody need to take a break 11 or? 12 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm ready to roll. 13 MS. HOWELL: I think that -- I think -- 14 this is Sharon speaking. I think that we would all do 13:21 15 well with like a five-minute break just to move. 16 MR. McFARLAND: All right. We'll take -- 17 we'll just leave you on here and take five minutes. 18 MS. HOWELL: Thank you. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you. 13:27 20 (Short break held) 21 MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Morgan, Mr. Castillo? 22 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir? 23 MR. RIDLEY: When you heard about the 24 survey, okay, however you heard about it, when you heard 13:28 25 the numbers, okay, were awesome and not very healthy, 61 13:28 1 why do you think the survey numbers were as they are? 2 MR. McFARLAND: Start with Mr. Castillo. 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: Sir, honestly, I don't 4 know. I don't know why Estelle's numbers were that 13:28 5 high. 6 WARDEN MORGAN: And may -- I was there 7 during that span of time. This is Warden Morgan. 8 MR. RIDLEY: Yes, sir. 9 WARDEN MORGAN: If that many -- if that 13:28 10 much activity was going on, they -- it -- it would be 11 near to impossible for not to know that that many things 12 were going on and not be brought to light. I just -- 13 really it just dumbfounds me that it would be that high. 14 I don't have an excuse or why it happened. I don't 13:29 15 know, but we have trained staff and that is just an 16 exorbitant amount of numbers and that's -- today is the 17 first day I even knew that and it's just stunning to me. 18 MR. RIDLEY: Had you heard about the 19 report before today? 13:29 20 WARDEN MORGAN: I have been gone for over 21 a year. 22 MR. RIDLEY: So you did not hear about 23 the report until today? 24 WARDEN MORGAN: That -- that the results 13:29 25 of it, yes, sir. 62 13:29 1 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. When the survey was 2 being conducted, what was your posture? 3 WARDEN MORGAN: I -- you know, to my 4 recollection, and I vaguely remember I believe when 13:29 5 those people came, was that, you know, I -- you know, go 6 back there and accommodate these folks, do whatever we 7 need to do to, you know, to get this thing done and, you 8 know, full cooperation. I mean, I would have -- if 9 somebody would have told me that day I would have -- it 13:30 10 would have floored me. I just -- it just really still 11 it stuns me now. I just can't believe it's that high. 12 MR. RIDLEY: You know about the climate 13 and the culture in the Estelle Unit, right? 14 WARDEN MORGAN: At the time, yes, sir, 13:30 15 when I was there. 16 MR. RIDLEY: What do you think the 17 climate was as it related to sexual assaults? 18 WARDEN MORGAN: The climate, well, as I 19 see it, sir, what we did, we followed procedures that 13:30 20 were in place. I mean I -- you know, I -- I was in that 21 hallway every day. I'd sit at the desk out there along 22 the cellblocks, and I do that to make myself available. 23 If that many things were going on, I just -- I just 24 can't believe that someone would not have come up to me 13:30 25 and told me: Warden Morgan, you're not going to believe 63 13:30 1 what is going on around here. I mean, that's just -- 2 that many people, even if it was half that many, a 3 fourth of that many, I can't believe that someone would 4 not come forward and say: Warden Morgan, this is going 13:31 5 on. Or staff: If that many staff members are 6 participating, they're -- I mean we've got some great 7 staff at Estelle that -- that I just -- there would have 8 been some word that would have come up to say this is 9 going on. 13:31 10 MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Castillo, what do you 11 think? 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, like I said 13 awhile ago, sir, I was just stunned. I can't believe 14 those numbers. I mean that's just too high, and I'm 13:31 15 going to reemphasize what Warden Morgan indicated. If 16 you're out there in the hallway and just -- and if you 17 take an active role in your unit operations, your 18 day-to-day operations, you would have heard. Even if 19 there was one or two, you would have heard that. And 13:32 20 we're talking about a hundred and what, 25, or 250? 21 That's just too high, sir. 22 MR. RIDLEY: What do you attribute that 23 to? 24 WARDEN CASTILLO: Maybe more awareness. 13:32 25 MR. RIDLEY: Explain. 64 13:32 1 WARDEN CASTILLO: Making the inmate 2 population aware in prevention of sexual assaults, pat 3 searching, maybe an increase in the pat searching, strip 4 searching. 13:32 5 MR. RIDLEY: I'm sorry, are you saying, 6 Mr. Castillo, that that may be the reason why the 7 reports of numbers are so high is because of those 8 activities? 9 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir, but I think 13:33 10 more -- I'm going to lean more towards awareness. 11 MR. RIDLEY: Oh, so the more -- 12 MS. ELLIS: I have a -- 13 MR. RIDLEY: Go ahead. 14 MS. ELLIS: I have a question about that. 13:33 15 Sir, you -- you indicate that you think the reason might 16 be that people are better informed about sexual assault, 17 that might account for the numbers? 18 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, ma'am. 19 MS. ELLIS: I don't understand that. 13:33 20 Help me understand that -- that rationale, that now that 21 I'm informed about it I might be more willing to talk 22 about it, tell the truth about it or use it? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: Maybe more the 24 advertising that we do, the more training that we do, 13:33 25 now inmates are familiar and are aware they can at any 65 13:33 1 time report -- 2 MS. ELLIS: I see. I see. 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: That we're more 4 approachable. 13:33 5 MS. ELLIS: So that -- so I see. That 6 would be a positive -- a positive way -- 7 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes. 8 MS. ELLIS: -- explaining, that now that 9 inmates are more aware of sexual assaults and their 13:34 10 rights as victims of sexual assault -- 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: That's what I'm getting 12 to. 13 MS. ELLIS: -- they would be more 14 comfortable in coming forth and reporting that these 13:34 15 events, this behavior is taking place? 16 WARDEN CASTILLO: Could possibly be, yes. 17 MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Morgan, do you agree 18 with that, that -- that more training about a sexual 19 assault and the fact that it's illegal, the fact that 13:34 20 it's zero tolerance and that you should definitely 21 report it, that that may be one of the reasons why the 22 numbers in the survey are so high for Estelle? 23 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, that possibly 24 could be, yes, sir. 13:34 25 MR. RIDLEY: Well, then, I hear both of 66 13:34 1 you saying that the numbers quite likely could be true? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: I don't believe they are. 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: I don't believe that 4 those numbers are true, sir. 13:35 5 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Well, then 6 I'm -- I'm sorry, I'm a little confused here. Seems to 7 me that if -- if numbers are real high, there are at 8 least two explanations, one, the inmates are lying or, 9 Number 2, the inmates now know that they're not going to 13:35 10 get punished for reporting what actually happened, and I 11 just heard both of you say that you think the greater 12 training has produced more of the latter, more of the 13 reporting, being -- folks being free to report on what 14 has actually been happening. I didn't hear either one 13:35 15 of you say that, gee, I think talking about sex so much 16 just gave these inmates a malicious idea on how they 17 could screw their wardens or -- or officers they don't 18 like. Neither one of you suggested that and I thought 19 your testimony under oath just now was that you thought 13:35 20 this is a good thing, we're training them, we're telling 21 them they ought to report it and they are. So I'm a 22 little confused. Why do you not think that the numbers 23 are accurate? Let me put it in the positive. Why don't 24 you believe the numbers? 13:36 25 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, you -- this is 67 13:36 1 Warden Morgan. If I may continue what we had started to 2 speak about awhile ago, and that was my -- the very next 3 thing is -- what I was going to say is I think that 4 those numbers are skewed for the very fact that I think, 13:36 5 you know, and I believe that you can understand that any 6 time you're housing people against their will and 7 keeping them there, they don't want to be there. 8 They're unhappy. They -- nine times out of ten they 9 don't like -- you know, they are going to have 13:36 10 retribution against the facility when they can. That's 11 just a reality. Now, I'm not saying every one of those 12 are, but I believe that a large part of that is -- I 13 believe that that's part of the issue right there. But 14 now, that's my opinion. 13:36 15 MR. RIDLEY: Why would the Estelle Unit's 16 number be so high? 17 WARDEN MORGAN: I don't know, sir. 18 MR. RIDLEY: I don't disagree that 19 inmates, you know, have the potential to get back, do 13:37 20 all other kind of things, but comparatively speaking 21 from a national perspective -- 22 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 23 MR. RIDLEY: -- why are the Estelle Unit 24 numbers so high? 13:37 25 WARDEN MORGAN: Other than, you know, 68 13:37 1 what we have already talked about, sir, I don't know. 2 MR. RIDLEY: Any speculation? 3 WARDEN MORGAN: No, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Are there any other 13:37 5 explanations, gentlemen, and we're -- again, this is not 6 a criminal inquisition. We're just trying to really dig 7 down into what can be done to make zero tolerance a 8 reality, not just in your facilities but everywhere in 9 the country. And I know that you share, or trust that 13:38 10 you share, that goal, so we're trying to figure out 11 what -- what's the cause of these high numbers. And can 12 you think of any third explanation other than the 13 inmates are lying or the inmates are now freed up to 14 tell the truth? Is there any other third explanation 13:38 15 for why the numbers should point to Estelle as being -- 16 having the highest prevalence of sexual assault in the 17 country? Can you think of any other reason? 18 WARDEN MORGAN: No, sir. As we -- as -- 19 this is Warden Morgan. As I had said before, I mean, we 13:38 20 -- you know, I feel like we have a great program in 21 place with our safekeeping, Safe Prisons Plan. You 22 know, something that we hadn't touched on as well is our 23 intelligence. We have our gang intelligence officers, 24 we have an extortion officer, we have a lot of people 13:39 25 that are out there in the population, not just myself 69 13:39 1 and the staff but in OIG; we have a lot of people that 2 are out there that are gathering information and 3 looking, you know, for things that are not right. And I 4 have full confidence in the staff that I had then and I 13:39 5 have confidence in that staff now, that if those things 6 were going on, they would have brought it to attention. 7 MS. ELLIS: So then it's -- you really 8 doubt or don't believe that those things were happening 9 to this degree that the numbers indicate? 13:39 10 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm not going to say that 11 -- you know, I'm not going to say the number, but I 12 would say that is a very large amount, a number that I 13 just don't understand it. I just don't believe that -- 14 I'm not going to say it's perfect, but I don't believe 13:39 15 it's -- I can't say that it's that high. 16 MS. ELLIS: Do you feel stigmatized by 17 that, by those numbers and that they have been released 18 throughout the nation, and certainly it casts a certain 19 light on Estelle? 13:40 20 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I take it 21 personally myself. 22 MS. ELLIS: Do you? 23 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am, I 24 do, and it -- and, you know, that's -- that's why 13:40 25 this -- when I got here today, that's the first time 70 13:40 1 that I had heard that the number was that high, and it 2 -- that really -- it really bothers me. 3 MS. ELLIS: I'm amazed that you hadn't 4 heard this before, that this information has been public 13:40 5 for some time and we certainly spent some time there in 6 Texas talking about it and you have not had any 7 discussions with your colleagues about what their 8 thoughts might have been about the numbers. I find that 9 -- that a bit surprising. 13:40 10 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm in Louisiana now. 11 MS. ELLIS: But still no -- no feedback 12 or no contact with folks in Texas, particularly about 13 something that's this important? 14 WARDEN MORGAN: This is the first time 13:40 15 that I have even talked to Warden Castillo since he took 16 my place, ma'am. 17 MS. ELLIS: Oh, I see. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Castillo, how many 19 inmates -- what is the count today? 13:41 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: Approximately 3285. 21 MR. McFARLAND: And how many Cos do you 22 have on staff? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: Currently 500. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Is that total staff or 13:41 25 custodial staff? 71 13:41 1 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, that's currently 2 security staff. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And that's over 4 all three shifts, right? 13:41 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, but I am 6 short-staffed. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. How many -- what's 8 your turnover rate for staff at Estelle? In other 9 words, how many openings open up every year at Estelle? 13:41 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, right now 11 currently I'm 200 -- I have 200 vacancies for 12 correctional staff. 13 MR. McFARLAND: 200 out of -- and how 14 many do you need? If you were fully -- what would you 13:42 15 define as fully-staffed? 16 WARDEN CASTILLO: 701. 17 MR. McFARLAND: And how -- what is the 18 turnover rate among the rookies that come your way? 19 WARDEN CASTILLO: On any given month, 13:42 20 possibility I lose maybe five. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Five out of how many -- 22 how many rookies do you get every month? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, I'm talking about 24 five staff members per month. On an average, three to 13:42 25 five resign their positions. We also work a lot of 72 13:42 1 overtime. We allow employees from other units to come 2 and work overtime. 3 MR. McFARLAND: And that's because you're 4 -- you have so many vacancies? 13:43 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: And do you pay time and a 7 half for overtime? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: So it would be a lot 13:43 10 cheaper to fill those vacancies, huh? 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Morgan, is that -- 13 was that the case at Estelle in '06, that you had a lot 14 of vacancies and you'd prefer not to be paying overtime 13:43 15 for it? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, we were 17 probably along those lines, yes, sir. 18 MR. McFARLAND: What was in '06 your 19 desired ratio of custodial staff to inmates? 13:43 20 WARDEN MORGAN: I would think probably 21 somewhere either three or four to one ideally, and I 22 think that's from the Ruiz -- 23 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, yeah. Four 24 custodial -- four inmates to every one custodial 13:43 25 officer? 73 13:43 1 WARDEN MORGAN: I believe so and I'm 2 going by my memory. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Castillo, is that -- 4 would you agree? 13:44 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: How and where would you 7 deploy additional staff if you had those 200 vacancies 8 filled? Where would you most -- where would be the -- 9 for every vacancy you fill, where would you want to -- 13:44 10 where would you first put the new staff? 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, you're -- 12 MR. McFARLAND: And I'm directing it to 13 Mr. Morgan. 14 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. What I would 13:44 15 like to say first, sir, is that -- and let me explain 16 this to better help you understand. We were 17 short-handed, as you say. We have a staffing plan that 18 is set forth that we have to go by that has all of the 19 positions that we have to man. Every one of those 13:44 20 positions have been manned, to assure for safety 21 purposes for the staff and the inmates both. We may 22 have had to pay overtime to accomplish that, but we have 23 never worked in short-handed where we left a position in 24 a housing area open, we never did anything like that and 13:45 25 I would imagine that's still the case today. 74 13:45 1 MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Morgan? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 3 MR. RIDLEY: What is your critical 4 minimum? 13:45 5 WARDEN MORGAN: On a shift? 6 MR. RIDLEY: Yes, sir. 7 WARDEN MORGAN: And I'm going by my 8 memory. It's been -- I would -- I would think it was 9 forty-two or forty-six, depending on the shift. 13:45 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: That's what it is, 11 forty-two. 12 MR. RIDLEY: Was that Mr. Castillo 13 confirming forty-two? 14 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 13:45 15 MR. RIDLEY: Per shift? 16 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 17 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Can we go through 18 each shift, please? 19 WARDEN MORGAN: What do you mean each 13:45 20 shift? 21 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Number 1 shift, what 22 is your critical minimum? 23 WARDEN MORGAN: Sir, I don't -- I don't 24 remember. 13:45 25 MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Castillo? 75 13:45 1 WARDEN CASTILLO: Approximately, I would 2 -- on first shift that you would need to man would be 3 close to forty, forty to forty-five. 4 MR. RIDLEY: Forty to forty-five. Number 13:46 5 2? 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: It's less, but -- it's 7 less than forty-five. 8 MR. RIDLEY: Do you run twelve-hour 9 shifts? 13:46 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: There's a twelve-hour 11 shift in high-security. 12 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. What about Number 3 13 shift, what is the critical minimum? 14 WARDEN CASTILLO: I don't know. I don't 13:46 15 know. 16 MR. RIDLEY: At some point could you get 17 that to us? 18 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes. 19 WARDEN MORGAN: It just -- we just have 13:46 20 to look at the staffing plan. 21 MR. RIDLEY: Sure. I understand. 22 MS. HOWELL: Mr. Quarterman -- this is 23 Sharon. Mr. Quarterman has indicated that he can get 24 the numbers for you. We believe that we may have it in 13:46 25 a document close at hand. 76 13:47 1 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Now, in order to meet 2 your critical minimums, you go to overtime? 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 4 MR. RIDLEY: How do you select for 13:47 5 overtime? 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: Volunteers. 7 MR. RIDLEY: They get on a list? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 9 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Do you have a 13:47 10 requirement that they can only work so many hours of 11 overtime -- 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 13 MR. RIDLEY: -- per week? 14 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 13:47 15 MR. RIDLEY: What might that be? 16 WARDEN CASTILLO: Sixteen. 17 MR. RIDLEY: They can only work 18 sixteen hours of overtime per week? 19 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, no, no, per day, no 13:47 20 more than sixteen. 21 MR. RIDLEY: Could they work 22 sixteen hours a day, five days a week? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes. 24 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. How do you look at 13:48 25 the fatigue factor? 77 13:48 1 WARDEN CASTILLO: Oh, that's Number 1. 2 You have to be very careful and they have to take a day 3 off within their schedule. One day off is required. 4 They must have one day of rest in between schedules. 13:48 5 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. So could you have, or 6 let me ask you: Do you have, Mr. Castillo, staff who 7 are working sixteen hours a day two, three, four, 8 five days consecutively? 9 WARDEN CASTILLO: Oh, yeah, that can 13:48 10 happen. 11 MR. RIDLEY: And if they had the one day 12 off after five days, they can do another sixteen-hour 13 day on the seventh day? 14 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes. 13:48 15 MR. RIDLEY: Does that happen now? 16 WARDEN CASTILLO: Not necessarily, not 17 sixteen hours. Most of the times it's twelve hours. 18 MR. RIDLEY: So you could have somebody 19 who could work sixty hours in six days with the one day 13:49 20 after -- one day off after five days; is that correct? 21 WARDEN CASTILLO: Right. 22 MR. RIDLEY: And that same employee could 23 then come in and do another twelve or sixteen hours for 24 a total of seventy-two to seventy-six hours in a seven 13:49 25 -- over seven days; is that correct? Does that happen? 78 13:49 1 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sixty hours is 2 total. 3 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. You could do -- well, 4 I think we get that, yeah. Do you pay time and a half 13:49 5 for over forty hours or is it time and a half over 6 eight hours on a day? 7 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, it's over forty. 8 MR. RIDLEY: So do they get -- do they 9 get time and a half for working more than eight hours in 13:50 10 a day? In other words, if they did sixteen hours, you 11 know, for a couple of days, have they earned any 12 overtime? 13 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, they would. 14 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Time and a half. 13:50 15 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes. 16 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. I'm sorry. I'm a 17 little confused. If -- if I work a sixteen-hour day two 18 days in a row, I've now logged thirty-two hours, and 19 then I don't work the rest of the week, do you owe me 13:50 20 any overtime? 21 WARDEN CASTILLO: No. 22 MR. RIDLEY: Am I correct in my 23 understanding that the qualifications for being a 24 custodial officer at Estelle are minimum age of 13:51 25 eighteen, no felonies, and no drug misdemeanors; is that 79 13:51 1 correct? 2 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 3 MR. RIDLEY: Are there any other 4 qualifications, any educational or other work-related 13:51 5 minimums? 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 7 MR. RIDLEY: Do they have to have a GED? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 9 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Do you have -- would 13:51 10 you like to see, Mr. Castillo, the addition of more 11 qualifications than that? 12 Would you like to be more selective or 13 are you in such a pickle trying to get enough bodies 14 there, that the last thing you can afford is being more 13:52 15 selective? 16 WARDEN CASTILLO: I would like to be more 17 selective, sir. 18 MS. ELLIS: And Mr. Castillo, would you 19 like to see a physical fitness program implemented? 13:52 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am. 21 MS. ELLIS: I see. Mr. Morgan, during 22 your time there, was there ever any effort to institute 23 a physical fitness program? 24 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, ma'am. Out in our 13:52 25 officer BOQ we have weights out there for the officers 80 13:52 1 and we had a -- within the department back then, we had 2 a fitness program that we had going on that encouraged 3 -- it wasn't a requirement. I believe it was called the 4 WIN Program, I can't remember what that stood for, 13:52 5 Wellness Initiative something, but we -- yes, ma'am, we 6 did encourage staff to participate in that and we did 7 keep up with it during the year. 8 MS. ELLIS: Was it successful? 9 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, ma'am, I think it 13:53 10 was. Some of our folks lost weight and did better, and 11 we often always have tried to do that. I mean, of 12 course, some staff participate and some don't. It 13 wasn't a mandatory program, I guess, is what I'm trying 14 to say. 13:53 15 MR. McFARLAND: Gentlemen, let me ask you 16 about the eleven inmate-on-inmate sexual assaults 17 allegations that are reported by TDCJ on three pages 18 dated Wednesday, February 27th, 2008. Have you got that 19 three-page document? 13:53 20 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: All right. And knowing 22 that this transcript will be public, I have agreed with 23 your counsel that I will not use the names of the 24 offenders or any of the other names, so I'm just going 13:54 25 to walk down this list and use the EAC number, and if 81 13:54 1 you could respond to the particular question, that would 2 be great. 3 Now, Mr. Morgan, these are all on your 4 watch -- 13:54 5 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: -- and I understand 7 they're allegations, they're not necessarily sustained, 8 but we're interested in -- in just how they played out, 9 and I realize you haven't -- this has been a couple of 13:54 10 years and you have been away from the whole system for a 11 year, but just tell me your best recollection because I 12 think you testified earlier that you consider these 13 felonies and they're -- the one instance was at least 14 indelibly burned into your mind, so maybe some of these 13:54 15 will -- you'll be able to recall, as well. 16 The first one, EAC Number 01-06. It's -- 17 I guess it's 00196-01-06. This one is in litigation, 18 and so I'm not -- with agreement by your counsel, I'm 19 not going to ask about that one. 13:55 20 WARDEN MORGAN: Okay. 21 MR. McFARLAND: The second one is 02-066, 22 and my question is, what happened to the alleged 23 perpetrator who allegedly used a handmade screwdriver 24 and forced the victim to perform oral sex? 13:55 25 WARDEN MORGAN: I have got the 82 13:55 1 disposition on that here now. I was just consulting 2 with Sharon -- could I go ahead and -- but I'm going to 3 tell you the truth, very little do I -- from memory do I 4 have of these issues. 13:56 5 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, well, go ahead and 6 consult your -- the -- 7 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I -- she said -- 8 go ahead, Sharon. 9 MS. HOWELL: If I can interject at this 13:56 10 point. What Mr. Morgan is looking at is the updated 11 alleged sexual assault list that we had promised to 12 provide to the Panel. And on that updated list we have 13 a disposition, I believe, for each alleged perpetrator. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Great. 13:56 15 MS. HOWELL: Okay. And the Panel will be 16 supplied with this list, I believe, later in the day if 17 we can send it electronically. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay, and so I want to be 19 cognizant of everybody's time. Ms. Howell, are you 13:56 20 saying that if I was to look at the document you have in 21 front of you, it's going to answer all our questions 22 about what happened to the alleged perpetrator in each 23 case, each of these eleven reports? 24 MS. HOWELL: Yes, sir. 13:56 25 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Then I'm not going 83 13:56 1 to belabor it. I appreciate that. But let me just ask 2 some other questions. On the third one, 02250, reported 3 on February 27th, '06, it says that there was no rape 4 kit used, quote, due to time lapse. How many days 13:57 5 lapsed such that a rape kit was no longer worth using? 6 WARDEN MORGAN: That is -- I don't know 7 the exact time, but that would be determined by our 8 Office of the Inspector General, the police entity 9 within the department. 13:57 10 MR. McFARLAND: Isn't there a -- isn't 11 there a department-wide portion of the Safe Prison Plan 12 that says: Hey, you run a rape kit unless the victim 13 says this happened more than ninety-six hours or more 14 than, you know, 120 hours or more than forty-eight hours 13:57 15 or something? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: What was your 18 understanding, Mr. Morgan, as to what that deadline was? 19 WARDEN MORGAN: To me -- to me, I would 13:58 20 have deferred to the Office of Inspector General. As 21 the police entity, they were handling the investigation 22 and made the determination whether to do it or not. 23 MR. McFARLAND: So you don't have -- you 24 don't have an understanding of what the -- how many days 13:58 25 would each have; is that right, sir? 84 13:58 1 WARDEN MORGAN: Ninety-six hours within 2 the Safe Prison. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, okay. So your 4 testimony is that in '06 a rape kit should have been run 13:58 5 on a -- on these alleged sexual assaults if it happened 6 within ninety-six hours? Did I understand that fully? 7 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, I believe 8 that's coming from the Safe Prison, yes, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Are you referring 13:58 10 to the Safe Prison Plan for that answer or is this your 11 recollection? 12 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, really my 13 recollection. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. All right. What 13:59 15 -- I notice in that -- in the second, third, fourth, 16 fifth, seventh, eighth -- in other words, just about 17 every one of these, ninth and eleventh and tenth, all 18 but one of them say that the offender was seen by 19 medical and mental health services. 13:59 20 Mr. Morgan, what was your understanding 21 of what was supposed to be -- what services were 22 supposed to be rendered by mental health for someone 23 alleging inmate-on-inmate sexual assault? 24 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I guess for any 13:59 25 type of issues that they might need to talk about or 85 13:59 1 need help with in counseling and so forth. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Can you be specific what 3 -- and, you know, obviously you don't need to guess. 4 Did you know what your staff and mental health should 14:00 5 have been providing to a victim or an alleged victim of 6 an inmate-on-inmate sexual assault? 7 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I would suppose 8 that one issue would be, of course, for the possibility 9 of suicide -- is why we would want to talk to them 14:00 10 immediately, but the medical department -- and as going 11 through the Office of Inspector General, whether a 12 forensic examination was going to be required or not, 13 would -- would be to them as them being the 14 investigative branch. 14:00 15 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Morgan, directing 16 your attention to Page 2, this is the sixth report. 17 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Number 05986-05-06. 19 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 14:01 20 MR. McFARLAND: It indicates on the 21 fourth line that underwear have been changed. Was it 22 ever located? 23 WARDEN MORGAN: From my recollection, 24 sir, I don't know. 14:01 25 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I wouldn't expect 86 14:01 1 you to remember that but I mean does -- 2 Counsel, the information you are going to 3 provide us on disposition, does it have any information 4 about evidence? 14:01 5 MS. HOWELL: I don't believe it has 6 additional information about evidence. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Do you have anything that 8 would shed some light on this particular -- this 9 particular case? The reason why I am honing in on this 14:01 10 is obviously it's one thing to have a lot of written 11 policies and it's another -- it's more illuminating to 12 know how it actually works or doesn't work. So that's 13 why I'm wondering, was an effort made to locate the 14 underwear of an individual who allegedly had been raped? 14:02 15 MS. HOWELL: And if I can interject right 16 here, I'm sure that there was and I'm sure that it was 17 done at the direction of the Office of Inspector 18 General, and they are going to be the ones who are going 19 to have the information about whether the underwear was 14:02 20 located and what was done because they take very 21 seriously their jobs about preserving crime scenes and 22 the collection of evidence, so we're not going to have 23 it. 24 MR. McFARLAND: That is great. So, Ms. 14:02 25 Howell, I am just going to ask on the record then, if -- 87 14:02 1 because I think it will be responsive to -- we're 2 talking about the Estelle Unit, it's not the whole TDCJ, 3 and we're talking about sexual assault in particular and 4 we're talking about it happening in 2006. Needless to 14:02 5 say, probably isn't much more important information, at 6 least from my perspective, than knowing exactly how were 7 these reports investigated -- were they investigated 8 consistent with the way Mr. Morgan, the warden, wanted 9 them to be and what he expected? So may I ask that of 14:03 10 Mr. Quarterman, if you would provide and you'll 11 supplement any information that the OIG can provide us 12 on any of these eleven alleged IOIs? 13 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Okay. I believe 14 that we can. What I would like to tell you is that when 14:03 15 Warden Morgan was in charge of the Estelle Unit, we had 16 -- 17 MR. McFARLAND: Can I interrupt you for a 18 second, Mr. Quarterman? 19 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Uh-huh. 14:03 20 MR. McFARLAND: Let me just remind you 21 that you're still under oath. We are still convened 22 under the earlier deal and I won't ask you to swear 23 again -- 24 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Okay. 14:03 25 MR. McFARLAND: -- but just you are under 88 14:03 1 testimony. 2 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Okay. Well, great. 3 What I was going to tell you is when Mr. Morgan was in 4 charge of the Estelle Unit, we had the situation in 14:04 5 Texas where the OIG would not give those wardens the 6 information that you're asking now. It was -- it was 7 done transparently. It was clear transparent lines 8 where it was no communications with my staff, my unit 9 wardens in relation to the majority of these 14:04 10 allegations. Once it's reported, we didn't get any 11 information on these -- on those facts. Well, this 12 legislative session, they passed a law that's requiring 13 them to communicate with me and I am meeting with them 14 in the next week to talk about how we translate that 14:04 15 information and improve communications where we will 16 know that kind of information to make the decisions that 17 is necessary. So the law was passed, and it was passed 18 because of PREA, and it was passed to pass that 19 information on to us and I can get my hands on what you 14:04 20 are asking for now -- 21 MR. McFARLAND: Sweet. 22 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: -- and we will do 23 that and try to get anything we can relating to what did 24 they do in their investigation because right now, it's 14:05 25 like a question mark to us when you ask us these 89 14:05 1 questions because we should have been in the know and, 2 you know, we're not. So, it's been fixed by our 3 legislators, so we were happy about that. 4 MR. McFARLAND: That's great. That's 14:05 5 great. Well, then, Ms. Howell, would you just let me 6 know when we can expect the OIG to provide that 7 additional information about these eleven incidents? 8 MS. HOWELL: I shall. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you so much. Thank 14:05 10 you, Mr. Quarterman. 11 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Okay. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Let me just direct, Mr. 13 Morgan, your attention to the seventh incident, 07931. 14 It says under disposition that the UCC, which is the 14:05 15 Unit Classification Committee; is that correct? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Recommended that the 18 offender, the alleged assailant, be released back to GP. 19 Why would that ever be done? 14:06 20 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm reading -- just a 21 second, please, sir. Well, the only reason that I could 22 say, sir, is that they felt that there was not enough 23 there to pursue the investigation, I would assume. I 24 don't have the whole thing there. That's my assumption. 14:06 25 MR. McFARLAND: Does the UCC keep files 90 14:06 1 on their investigations of felonies? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. It should be 3 in the packet of information with the Safe Prisons forms 4 and so forth. 14:06 5 MR. McFARLAND: Can we see whatever you 6 have -- the UCC folks have on any of these eleven 7 incidents? 8 MS. HOWELL: Absolutely. I hadn't 9 understood before that you were not provided with the 14:06 10 individual OPIs, but we're delighted to follow up with 11 that. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you so much. Yeah. 13 A three-page synopsis is everything we have got on these 14 eleven IOIs. 14:07 15 MS. HOWELL: Okay. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Then on, Mr. Morgan, the 17 bottom of the second page 08377? 18 WARDEN MORGAN: We're going back to the 19 second page? 14:07 20 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. I was -- my 21 previous question was also on the second page. 22 WARDEN MORGAN: Okay. I'm sorry, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. The bottom of that 24 page, it indicates that, during the investigation, it 14:07 25 could not be determined who, which staff member, in 91 14:07 1 other words, had escorted the alleged assailant to the 2 cell of the victim. 3 WARDEN MORGAN: Let me read right quick, 4 please, sir. And we're on the second page, third one, 14:08 5 526? 6 MR. McFARLAND: The fourth one at the 7 bottom, EAC Number 08377-07-06. 8 WARDEN MORGAN: And it's date reported 9 5-26-06. 14:08 10 MR. McFARLAND: Date reported 7-20-06. 11 WARDEN MORGAN: That's my third page. 12 Okay. I'm at the -- it's at the top of the page? 13 MS. HOWELL: For the record, what 14 Mr. Morgan is looking at is the updated list. What the 14:08 15 Panel is looking at is the list that we have provided to 16 them, so your page numbers are not going to match up 17 exactly. 18 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm sorry, sir. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Okay, no, I'm sorry. 14:08 20 Yeah, we're looking at the list as of February 27th, so 21 we'll just rely on the EAC number. 22 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm with you. 7-10-06. 23 Okay. Your question again? 24 MR. McFARLAND: 7 -- 7-20-06, the one 14:08 25 right below that. This is a case where the victim 92 14:08 1 alleges that another -- that the assailant was escorted 2 into his cell, and my question is: Did you ever 3 identify which staff member escorted this assailant? 4 Because he was, in fact, found in the cell. This isn't 14:09 5 just an allegation. This guy, the alleged assailant, 6 was found in the next shift in the wrong cell. 7 WARDEN MORGAN: Without -- without having 8 that information, sir, in front of me, I -- I don't 9 remember. 14:09 10 MR. McFARLAND: And as warden, 11 Mr. Morgan, what would you have -- 12 WARDEN MORGAN: What comes to my mind, 13 the first thing we should have done is gone back to the 14 roster and find out who was working that wing. 14:09 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yep. 16 WARDEN MORGAN: ... is exactly what we 17 would have done and what I would have assumed. I don't 18 have the investigation in front of me to see who was 19 working that wing, and if it wasn't that person, that 14:10 20 person was on the wing and should know who came on that 21 wing. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Would you consider this 23 to be a serious breach of -- of rules by your staff? 24 WARDEN MORGAN: Oh, yes, sir. Yes, sir, 14:10 25 and I'm trying my best to remember if there was a -- 93 14:10 1 MR. McFARLAND: No, I'm assuming you are. 2 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I was -- I was 3 trying to figure out who -- what action we took because 4 we most certainly would have taken action on something 14:10 5 like that. That's -- that's -- you can't tolerate that 6 type of behavior. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Is counsel -- well, what 8 you are going to send us, the workup from either the UCC 9 or -- and the OIG, are they going to answer questions 14:10 10 about this one, like what time this perpetrator was 11 escorted, what time, what day, for that matter, it 12 happened, because it indicates the rape kit was not used 13 due to time lapse and so forth? 14 MS. HOWELL: I think that you're likely 14:11 15 to have a substantial -- you're likely to get that 16 information. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And counsel, I'm 18 looking at the end of that paragraph of the synopsis. 19 It says that the -- that the alleged assailant was 14:11 20 released from custody on 6-15-07. Given the fact that 21 it was reported on July 20, does that sit -- should that 22 be an 8? Was he released on August 15th, '07? Oh, I'm 23 sorry, you know what, that's '07, so that was eleven 24 months later. 14:11 25 MS. HOWELL: Yes, sir. 94 14:11 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 2 WARDEN MORGAN: The OIG, about the -- 3 should have -- I mean they had this investigation. That 4 information should be in their investigation. 14:12 5 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. I'm looking at the 6 -- the ninth incident. This is EAC 12850, reported 7 November 2nd, 2006. 8 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Have you had a chance to 14:12 10 review that? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm looking at it right 12 now, sir. Okay, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Is it true that this 14 alleged victim had a past record of allegedly being 14:12 15 sexually assaulted three times in a seventh-month period 16 in three different units? 17 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: I have to get his 18 file to see. 19 WARDEN MORGAN: Sir, I don't know. 14:13 20 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I'm -- 21 WARDEN MORGAN: Off the top of my head, I 22 don't know. 23 MR. McFARLAND: No, I'm looking at the 24 fourth sentence. 14:13 25 WARDEN MORGAN: Okay. 95 14:13 1 MR. McFARLAND: Investigations reveal 2 that this offender has past records of allegedly being 3 sexually assaulted on the Connally Unit in December of 4 '03, the Clements Unit in February of '04, and the 14:13 5 Allred Unit in July of '04. So in a seventh-month 6 period, he allegedly was sexually assaulted in three 7 different places? 8 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: And this is a fourth 14:13 10 allegation? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: Okay. 12 MR. McFARLAND: How many sexual assaults 13 have to -- does an inmate have to put up with before he 14 gets safekeeping in Estelle in 2006? What the heck was 14:14 15 this gentleman doing not in safekeeping but in general 16 population when the past records indicated this? Either 17 he is a pervasive liar and he's been -- none of these 18 incidents have been sustained or he is just a -- 19 MS. ELLIS: Major victim. 14:14 20 MR. McFARLAND: -- a major guinea pig, an 21 assault waiting to happen? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: And I understand what you 23 are saying. Without all of the information here, I 24 can't really give you a good answer other than the other 14:14 25 issues were allegations as well, correct? 96 14:14 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 2 WARDEN MORGAN: But not that I'm saying 3 he is right or wrong, but I -- without having that full 4 information, I really -- it's hard for me to give you an 14:14 5 answer for that, but I understand where you are coming 6 from, though. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Well, it doesn't matter 8 where I'm coming from, it's where you're coming from. 9 And I want to know, sir, if you had information as 14:14 10 warden of Estelle, that any inmate had previously 11 alleged to have been sexually assaulted, would you have 12 done anything about that? Would you have given them -- 13 would you have put them in safekeeping or would you have 14 ordered, you know, an investigation into whether that 14:15 15 earlier allegation had been sustained? Would you have 16 taken any action on the basis of one previous allegation 17 in a different unit of being sexually assaulted? 18 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I think that it 19 would have come into play and I can't say whether I 14:15 20 would or not. The indication is yes, from this, I 21 would, but I would like to see the complete report 22 before I would say I would or wouldn't. The face value 23 here from what I could see, yes, sir, it is a 24 possibility it should have been. 14:15 25 MR. McFARLAND: So it's your sworn 97 14:15 1 testimony, Mr. Morgan, that as the senior warden at 2 Estelle in 2006, it would have been your pattern or 3 practice to put in safekeeping an inmate who had 4 previously alleged that he had been sexually assaulted 14:16 5 in another unit? 6 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, possibly. Again, 7 without having the full information, sir, I couldn't 8 say. 9 MR. McFARLAND: What other information 14:16 10 would you want to know before -- 11 WARDEN MORGAN: I would like to see the 12 full investigation. 13 MR. McFARLAND: What are you looking for 14 in the full investigation? 14:16 15 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, and I'm not saying 16 this is in this case, but there are times that there 17 could have been some type of information that the inmate 18 had been manipulative on another unit or whatever, but 19 it -- does it say there that he was not -- he was 14:16 20 transferred for protective reasons, assailant was 21 assigned to the Telford Unit, right? 22 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 23 WARDEN MORGAN: Okay. I'm just -- I'm 24 just reading to myself. Excuse me, sir. I -- what was 14:17 25 the question, sir? 98 14:17 1 MR. McFARLAND: My question was: What 2 additional information would you have wanted as warden 3 before you made a decision to put this individual in 4 safekeeping or not? 14:17 5 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, first of all -- 6 MR. McFARLAND: You said that, you know, 7 you would want to know whether he has got a reputation 8 of being a liar. That makes sense. 9 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, of manipulation, 14:17 10 and I'm not saying this is or not, but I mean those are 11 things that come into play. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. 13 WARDEN MORGAN: But without having all 14 that information, it would be hard for me to say yes, I 14:17 15 would or no, I wouldn't without having the full 16 information and the information from the Unit 17 Classification Committee and the investigation to 18 consider. I mean, I have got a very general synopsis. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir, so do we. Do 14:17 20 you remember -- it says the Estelle Unit administration 21 recommended that the -- that the victim be transferred 22 for protective reasons. Do you remember signing off on 23 that transfer recommendation? 24 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, we are -- the unit 14:18 25 is not the transferring authority. The Bureau of 99 14:18 1 Classification is the one that approves and disapproves 2 all transfers of inmates, so I -- that's the system, but 3 I don't recall doing anything of such what you are 4 saying. 14:18 5 MR. McFARLAND: Well, was it your job in 6 '06 as warden of Estelle to make recommendations, not 7 the decision, but the recommendations to -- to transfer 8 an inmate for protective reasons? 9 WARDEN MORGAN: It would -- I would 14:18 10 assume that came from the Unit Classification Committee 11 recommendation. 12 MR. McFARLAND: Well, my question is 13 about your understanding of your job description and 14 authority in '06, sir. 14:19 15 Did you make recommendations or sign off 16 on your staff's recommendations about inmates needing to 17 be transferred for protective reasons to another unit? 18 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, we don't, per se, I 19 sign off on it. The Unit Classification Committee would 14:19 20 make the recommendation and submit it to the bureau of 21 classification. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Would you even see it? 23 WARDEN MORGAN: There is a possibility I 24 may not. 14:19 25 MR. RIDLEY: Let me ask a quick question. 100 14:19 1 What is the procedure? What does the policy stipulate 2 to take place? 3 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, we go through the 4 investigation that we have already talked about earlier, 14:19 5 correct, and it goes through -- the major looks at it, 6 makes his recommendations in the summary, goes to the 7 Unit Classification Committee, which is comprised of at 8 least three people at a minimum who -- one has to be an 9 assistant warden, a captain or above, and a non-security 14:20 10 or classification person. They review the information 11 and make a decision about how or what they should 12 recommend as a committee of where this person should be 13 transferred or not. That, in turn, is sent to the 14 Bureau of Classification and a State classification 14:20 15 committee person will look at that and consider it and 16 they -- they get back in touch with us at the unit level 17 and they give us their decision whether there was enough 18 information there to transfer the inmate, what the 19 custody level he was going to be going under. If it was 14:20 20 administrative segregation protection, it would have 21 to -- it has to meet their approval and I assume that is 22 still -- that is still the way it is. 23 MR. RIDLEY: While that is taking place, 24 what is the status of the inmate? 14:21 25 WARDEN MORGAN: He should be in a 101 14:21 1 transient status. 2 MR. RIDLEY: Transient meaning he's 3 moving? 4 WARDEN MORGAN: No, it's a housing area 14:21 5 where he's being housed separate from the population. 6 MR. RIDLEY: He'd be in the A Wing, 7 right? 8 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 9 MR. RIDLEY: So you don't get involved at 14:21 10 all? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: Oh, yes, sir. Yes, sir, 12 they are keeping me informed as to what the issues are 13 and what is going on throughout the investigation, 14 especially in these cases of sexual assault. 14:21 15 MR. RIDLEY: So that's your only 16 involvement is being informed? 17 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, it's up to Bureau 18 of Classification. They're the transferring authority. 19 MR. RIDLEY: And they don't ask for you 14:21 20 to agree or disagree with a protective custody transfer 21 recommendation? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: They send all pertinent 23 information and they review that, sir. 24 MR. RIDLEY: No, I'm asking what do they 14:21 25 ask of you? Do they want to know what you think about 102 14:21 1 the recommendation? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: There have been times 3 that, yes, sir, they have called and asked me about it. 4 MS. ELLIS: Do you have any capacity to 14:22 5 override or object? 6 WARDEN MORGAN: If we -- if we disagree, 7 our recourse would be to appeal it to the director's 8 review board if -- in any case that we disagreed with. 9 If they -- for instance, as an example I'll give you, if 14:22 10 they said he didn't need to be transferred and I thought 11 that he did, well, that's when I would appeal it, just 12 as an example. 13 MR. RIDLEY: Do you think that process 14 promotes a healthy environment -- 14:22 15 WARDEN MORGAN: What do you mean? 16 MR. RIDLEY: -- for alleged victims? 17 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I mean they are -- 18 since my tenure with the department, this is the way 19 transfers have always been done. You know, the 14:22 20 information is sent to them and they get the 21 information, as I -- if my memory is correct, and they 22 look and make those decisions because that's what they 23 are basing their decision on -- whether to place them in 24 -- 14:23 25 MR. RIDLEY: But as a corrections 103 14:23 1 professional -- 2 WARDEN MORGAN: Sir? 3 MR. RIDLEY: -- I'm asking you, do you 4 think that promotes a healthy environment for the 14:23 5 alleged victim? 6 WARDEN MORGAN: I do, sir, because I 7 believe everything is being taken into consideration. 8 MR. RIDLEY: The length of time and 9 everything? 14:23 10 WARDEN MORGAN: Sir, he's been on 11 transient status and I mean he's being protected. He's 12 away from the general population while that 13 investigation is being conducted and that process is 14 being taken place. 14:23 15 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Morgan, at Estelle in 16 '06, did your classification committee or whoever was 17 doing the initial classification of your new inmates -- 18 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir? 19 MR. McFARLAND: -- did they have access 14:24 20 to past records of alleged sexual assault? 21 WARDEN MORGAN: I would assume that that 22 would be in with the information that arrived with him 23 from the previous unit that he was coming from. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Do you know if that 14:24 25 information is typically provided by the previous unit? 104 14:24 1 WARDEN MORGAN: To my knowledge, yes, 2 sir, it is. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Castillo, today do 4 you have information from any transferring unit about 14:24 5 allegations of sexual assault for your new fish? 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: For your new what, sir? 7 MR. McFARLAND: Your new inmates? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: Sir, on any given day 9 on incoming chain, you are going to see inmates that are 14:24 10 coming in for -- and while reviewing their file, there 11 is going to be previous OPIs in there, offender 12 protection investigations. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Is it your expectation, 14 Mr. Castillo, that you will -- you'll have that 14:25 15 information or your staff will have that information 16 before you make a decision to put anybody in GP? 17 WARDEN CASTILLO: Oh, yes, sir. You will 18 have the file, the classification file and you'll have 19 that information plus a travel card and, you know, the 14:25 20 classification file travels with the inmate from unit to 21 unit. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Now, for the record, Ms. 23 Ellis is going to need to slip out here, so we thank you 24 for your participation. 14:26 25 MS. ELLIS: Certainly. 105 14:26 1 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Castillo, if you were 2 aware that an offender had alleged sexual assaults in a 3 previous unit, would you -- what would you do? It 4 wouldn't make any difference, or would you put them in 14:26 5 safekeeping? 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: If the allegations were 7 substantiated, he would end up in safekeeping. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And how would you 9 substantiate the allegations? Who would you ask or -- 14:26 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: No. If the inmate 11 arrived at my unit where the allegations had been 12 substantiated on another unit, yes, he would go to 13 safekeeping. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Ms. Howell, the -- 14:26 15 is my understanding correct that the information either 16 from OIG or UCC that you are going to send us on this 17 event, 12850, is going to -- should be able to tell us 18 what information Mr. Morgan's staff had when this 19 particular offender arrived? 14:27 20 MS. HOWELL: It is likely to and it 21 should. There is a possibility that telephone 22 conversations may have taken place. I don't know. 23 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Well, can I make a 24 comment? This is Mr. Quarterman. 14:27 25 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 106 14:27 1 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: I think what we are 2 going to have to supply to you is the OPI and also the 3 investigation because I cannot tell you the -- I cannot 4 tell you the credibility of their investigation because 14:27 5 they don't work for me. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir, I understand 7 that. 8 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: But one thing I can 9 give you, I can give you what we initially started when 14:27 10 we reported it to them and what evidence we had to call 11 them aboard to take care of that -- that situation. And 12 I think that's important that we provide that to you and 13 ask them to provide you with the whole file of their 14 investigation. 14:28 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 16 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: So we're going to 17 ask for both -- we're going to give you the OPI because 18 that's something I think is important and then I think 19 the investigation itself that they did, if they will 14:28 20 release it -- we'll try to get that to you. 21 MR. McFARLAND: And, Mr. Quarterman, that 22 is great. Is the OPI the offender profile investigation 23 or something? 24 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Yes. 14:28 25 MS. HOWELL: It's the offender protection 107 14:28 1 investigation, sir. And to answer the question I was 2 answering before, usually on the forms, the committee 3 will write down the specific reason it relied on for 4 making the particular recommendation to the State 14:28 5 classification committee for transfer or placement in 6 safekeeping or whatever, so usually it's going to be 7 clear from the face of the investigation why he was -- 8 why the recommendation was made. 9 WARDEN MORGAN: And why he was being 14:29 10 transferred to our facility should be on there, too. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 12 MS. HOWELL: Anyway, you should get a lot 13 of information from the investigations and, anyway, I 14 think they will be helpful. 14:29 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Turning to the 16 information you all provided about employee discipline, 17 so we're turning from inmate-on-inmate assault to any 18 violations by staff in 2006. It indicates that the 19 Estelle Unit, as I mentioned earlier, had 151 14:29 20 disciplines in calendar '06 but zero of them were for 21 sexual misconduct with an offender. 22 Mr. Morgan, do you think -- do you 23 believe that your staff in '06 did not commit a single 24 act that would qualify as sexual misconduct? 14:30 25 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, as the record 108 14:30 1 indicates there, we didn't discipline anybody, and I can 2 assure you if it had been brought to our attention, that 3 we would have, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: So your answer is -- is 14:30 5 what, that you -- you don't believe that they committed 6 a single act? 7 WARDEN MORGAN: Not to my knowledge. 8 MR. McFARLAND: What do you suspect? I 9 think you indicated earlier that you recalled one felony 14:30 10 involving staff-on-inmate sexual conduct in '06, if I'm 11 not mistaken? 12 WARDEN MORGAN: We're talking about the 13 DNA; is that the one that you're talking about from 14 earlier? 14:31 15 MR. McFARLAND: I don't know if it's -- 16 WARDEN MORGAN: And that may have been in 17 2005. I can't -- I don't remember. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, all right. 19 WARDEN MORGAN: But it may have been in 14:31 20 '06, but it may have been in '05. I -- I don't -- I 21 don't remember. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Castillo, you arrived 23 in March of '07, how many 42D violations were -- were 24 entered in Estelle in 2007? 14:31 25 WARDEN CASTILLO: I have not ran any 109 14:31 1 42As. 2 MR. McFARLAND: 42Ds? 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: Ds. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Which is sexual 14:31 5 misconduct? Is it 42A or 42D? 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: Delta, D. 7 MR. McFARLAND: What is 42A? 8 WARDEN MORGAN: That may just be -- I 9 think that may just be inappropriate relationship. 14:32 10 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Inappropriate 11 relationship like letters and just talking, no touching, 12 just inappropriate communications. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Who was that that just 14 testified? 14:32 15 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: This is 16 Mr. Quarterman. 17 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Quarterman, okay. 18 Mr. Morgan -- or Mr. Castillo, do you think that failure 19 to report by staff about staff improprieties or sexual 14:32 20 misconduct by staff is an explanation for why there is 21 not a single, you know, allegation or discipline against 22 the staff for sexual misconduct? Do you honestly think 23 that nothing occurred, or do you think that maybe some 24 -- some of your officers are looking the other way? 14:33 25 They have got to work with these people, and if it's a 110 14:33 1 consensual quickie in a closet by one of your fellow 2 officers, you do not want to have the reputation of 3 turning in your peers? Am I way off on that or could 4 that -- 14:33 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, I don't think that 6 you're way off. I think that -- that if a person has 7 knowledge of another person, most of the time I believe 8 that the person that is engaged in a relationship -- and 9 at times there is other people that know about -- about 14:33 10 it but are not going to report it. 11 MR. McFARLAND: How might you as the 12 warden, Mr. Castillo, motivate folks to not stay silent 13 on the commission of sexual misconduct by staff? 14 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, I'm glad that you 14:34 15 brought that up because on newly arrived employees -- 16 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 17 WARDEN CASTILLO -- as a senior warden, 18 you are tasked to go in into the shift briefing and 19 giving the newly arrived employees a one-hour block of 14:34 20 instruction, and that has always been one of my favorite 21 block of instructions on the inmates that are capable of 22 manipulating staff if you allow them to. 23 MR. McFARLAND: So you like to spell out 24 for your new staff that once you're compromised by an 14:35 25 inmate, that -- 111 14:35 1 WARDEN CASTILLO: You're ineffective, 2 sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 4 WARDEN CASTILLO: You're ineffective once 14:35 5 you're compromised by an inmate. 6 MR. McFARLAND: He's got the goods on 7 you, he's got you over a barrel; isn't that right? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: And it could lead to 14:35 10 contraband, it could lead to all kinds of things? 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: Oh, it could lead to 12 the introduction of contraband, it puts your staff in -- 13 it jeopardizes the staff, your unit operations. 14 MR. RIDLEY: Mr. Castillo, Walter Ridley 14:36 15 again. 16 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 17 MR. RIDLEY: Two pieces. One is, the 18 survey is out and you and Mr. Morgan and -- while it is 19 just debatable, okay, about the data, but it's out 14:36 20 there. What do you plan on doing to assure that if 21 another similar survey is done, it will not reflect the 22 same results? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: Can you repeat the 24 question? 14:36 25 MR. RIDLEY: Sure. Okay. The survey 112 14:36 1 that is out there. 2 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 3 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. Whether you agree or 4 disagree, the reality is the numbers are out there. 14:37 5 Understanding that, what do you plan to do to assure 6 that those kinds of numbers will not be reflected if 7 another survey were to be done? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: More training. 9 MR. RIDLEY: Training in what? 14:37 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: Of staff. 11 MR. RIDLEY: In what? 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: More in-depth training 13 and reporting and their responsibilities. 14 MR. RIDLEY: Do you think there is a need 14:37 15 for a culture change or a climate change in the 16 institution? 17 WARDEN CASTILLO: I don't believe so. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. I ask that 19 question because something, again, has caused the survey 14:38 20 to be what it is. 21 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 22 MR. RIDLEY: And I think it's -- it would 23 be -- I think it would be prudent upon you to somehow 24 ascertain what the real climate is -- 14:38 25 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 113 14:38 1 MR. RIDLEY: -- and not make necessarily 2 an assumption but to dig down and say: Hey, why are 3 those numbers here? Just a thought. 4 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 14:38 5 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Castillo, when was 6 the last time there was a substantiated complaint 7 against any of your staff for sexual harassment of an 8 inmate? Has that ever happened since you arrived? 9 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 14:39 10 MR. McFARLAND: Do you remember -- 11 Mr. Morgan, was there ever a substantiated complaint 12 against any of your staff for sexual harassment of an 13 inmate during your tenure there? 14 WARDEN MORGAN: The only -- and again, 14:39 15 from my recollection, sir, is the one that we had 16 discussed earlier where that DNA had come back that was 17 matched. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. As a result of the 19 report from Livingston? 14:39 20 WARDEN MORGAN: No, sir. No, sir. 21 Repeat yourself. I'm not sure if I understand you. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Well, let me -- I'm 23 looking at a document that you all provided dated -- 24 it's a letter to Dennis Mills -- 14:39 25 WARDEN MORGAN: Oh, yes, sir. Yes, sir, 114 14:39 1 I have got it in front of me. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And that's your 3 signature? 4 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 14:39 5 MR. McFARLAND: Do you remember this 6 incident of racial harassment? 7 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: When is the last time -- 9 and during your tenure at Estelle, was there ever any 14:40 10 similar discipline for sexual harassment by staff? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: Not -- not to my 12 knowledge, sir. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Do you think it happened? 14 WARDEN MORGAN: Do I think it happened? 14:40 15 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Not to my knowledge. I 17 mean, you're asking me to speculate. I don't believe 18 that it did. 19 MR. McFARLAND: I'm just wondering if you 14:40 20 ever had a suspicion. Let me put it this way: This is 21 one area of a sustained complaint for racial harassment. 22 Do you think this was the only incident of racial 23 harassment? 24 WARDEN MORGAN: That was reported, that 14:40 25 was brought to my attention. 115 14:40 1 MR. McFARLAND: Did you ever have any 2 suspicions that it wasn't the only incident of racial 3 harassment among your staff in your four or five years 4 there? 14:40 5 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm -- you know, I'm not 6 going to say the possibility could have possibly been 7 there but, you know, anything that's ever reported as in 8 this case, I can assure you we took appropriate action 9 and addressed the issue. 14:41 10 MR. McFARLAND: The OPI, the Offender 11 Protection Investigation log, you have got a document 12 there that talks about Unit Classification Procedure 13 10.00 dated July 2005? 14 WARDEN MORGAN: Where are we at again? 14:41 15 I'm just getting my book. 16 MS. HOWELL: It's at the front. 17 WARDEN MORGAN: Front? Under 18 classification procedure? 19 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 14:42 20 WARDEN MORGAN: Okay. Offender 21 Protection Investigation form? 22 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 23 WARDEN MORGAN: Okay. We're looking at 24 the form. 14:42 25 MR. McFARLAND: Did you have this log 116 14:42 1 when you were there? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: I'm trying to make sure 3 I'm on the right one here. Just a second. The Offender 4 Protection Investigation log? 14:42 5 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 6 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, I believe it 7 was. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And how was it used? 9 WARDEN MORGAN: It was used to log in, I 14:42 10 believe -- let me look here right quick again, I -- this 11 was used to log in any type of complaints for offender 12 protection requests to keep, I assume, the timeline on 13 it there. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. How often did you 14:43 15 refer to it, the log? 16 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, the Safe Prison 17 Program sergeant would come and we would talk about 18 issues and look at it and review it. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Well, my question is: 14:43 20 How often did you as warden look at who was listed on 21 the log? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: You know, I'm trying to 23 remember back. I would say a couple of times a month. 24 MR. McFARLAND: How about you, Mr. 14:43 25 Castillo, do you have occasion to look at it? 117 14:43 1 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 2 MR. McFARLAND: How do you use it? 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, classification 4 chief is the person that keeps the log. 14:44 5 MR. McFARLAND: So you delegate that to 6 him or her or do you -- do you want to see that log 7 yourself? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, it's delegated to 9 her. 14:44 10 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. When is the last 11 time you looked at it? 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: Last week. 13 MR. McFARLAND: And before then when was 14 the last time you had looked at it? I'm just trying to 14:44 15 get an idea of whether this is something that wardens, 16 you know, look at on a weekly basis, a semi-annual 17 basis, or what? 18 WARDEN CASTILLO: Possibly every -- once 19 a month. 14:44 20 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. And what were you 21 looking at for -- what was relevant to you on this log? 22 WARDEN CASTILLO: Just the inmates that 23 are on -- investigations that have been conducted on 24 particular inmates. 14:45 25 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, but what I'm 118 14:45 1 getting at is how, if at all, was this useful in 2 preventing sexual assaults? 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: Oh, it -- well, the 4 only thing it's going to indicate on there is who -- the 14:45 5 name of the inmate that an Offender Protection 6 Investigation has been conducted on and the disposition. 7 MR. McFARLAND: How many -- Mr. Castillo, 8 how many new inmates come in at a time on a given day? 9 It can vary, I'm sure, so -- 14:45 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: Oh, twenty, thirty. 11 MR. McFARLAND: And how long does it take 12 for your classification people to figure out where to 13 bunk them? 14 WARDEN CASTILLO: That's a task. At 14:46 15 times that becomes a task. Oh, well, prior to them 16 getting there, they should have a bunk already reserved 17 for them and where they're going to be housed at. 18 MR. McFARLAND: And how is that decision 19 made and who makes it? 14:46 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: The classification 21 chief. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Who is your 23 classification chief right now? 24 WARDEN CASTILLO: Ms. Ballard. 14:46 25 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And what 119 14:46 1 information do you expect her to have when she is 2 deciding on who a new inmate is going to be -- have as 3 his cellie? 4 WARDEN CASTILLO: Oh, what information? 14:46 5 MR. McFARLAND: Yes. 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: As far as his height 7 and weight? 8 MR. McFARLAND: Height, weight, sexual 9 orientation -- 14:47 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: Right. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Past sexual assault 12 allegations, whether this guy is a -- is violent, 13 whether this guy is a -- a flaming homosexual who -- who 14 is proud of it and makes no bones about it, whether this 14:47 15 person is -- is -- you know, what information does she 16 have in front of her when she is deciding who to put in 17 there in a cell with him? 18 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, she has got a -- 19 she has got her computer screen. All this information 14:47 20 is on screen. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And does -- what 22 information does she have or get from the previous unit 23 or from the jail that's transferring this new inmate? 24 You know, is it -- other than name, rank, and serial 14:47 25 number, what else? 120 14:48 1 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, we get a 2 classification file when the inmate arrives on the unit. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 4 WARDEN CASTILLO: And a travel card. 14:48 5 MR. McFARLAND: So if you get it when 6 they arrive, but I think you just testified that 7 Ms. Ballard makes -- has already assigned them. So I 8 take it that there is nothing in the classification file 9 that plays any role in where they get assigned? 14:48 10 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, they got -- 11 MR. McFARLAND: If -- not to be Perry 12 Mason here, but if there is any discussion among you, if 13 you'd just let us know, that would be helpful. 14 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Yeah, this is 14:48 15 Mr. Quarterman. I was trying just to grasp on what you 16 are trying to get at, but I just want to make both of 17 you aware that we process the inmates in our receptions. 18 When they come into intake, they're not intaked at only 19 those facilities. They're intaked on our -- our intake 14:49 20 facilities where we make up their classification, their 21 profile. All that information is put in the database 22 and we are given a travel card that travels with the 23 inmate along with the file. So when he arrives on the 24 warden's unit, they have all that information at their 14:49 25 access to make a decision where to house these folks. 121 14:49 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, but that was my 2 point. The travel card travels with the inmate. The 3 information -- the classification file I was just told 4 was -- travels with the inmate and two minutes ago we 14:49 5 heard that the decision about where that person is going 6 to be housed is made before the inmate gets there. 7 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Oh, no, they're 8 made when they get there in reclass. When they get 9 there in reclass -- they've got a chain list of who is 14:50 10 coming in but the decision is made -- when they come 11 into classification, they are seen by UCC. UCC 12 determines what job they get, what assignments they get, 13 what level of assignments, what custody they're going to 14 be and at that point it goes to housing. And at that 14:50 15 point, the housing will make the decisions where this 16 inmate will be according to all that information. And 17 that's done on every facility. Now, if we can't 18 classify this person in time, we'll put him in transient 19 pending classification. That's the procedure as it 14:50 20 stands in Texas. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Well, Mr. Castillo -- 22 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: -- is, in fact -- in your 24 sworn testimony, is that the way it actually happens at 14:51 25 Estelle, namely that nobody is put in -- is housed until 122 14:51 1 this person arrives and has been interviewed by the 2 classification person, Ms. Bales (sic) or Ms. -- well, 3 whoever it is and the -- all the information that 4 Mr. Quarterman has just described has all been available 14:51 5 to them and reviewed? Is that -- is that the way it 6 actually happens? 7 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir, that is 8 correct. 9 MR. McFARLAND: And how do you pull that 14:51 10 off when you have got twenty or more individuals all 11 arriving on a bus on one day? Is that -- 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: You have a -- you set 13 up a classification hearing and one by one you're 14 reviewing their file. The committee reviews their file 14:51 15 and determines where the inmate is going to be housed 16 and the job. 17 MR. McFARLAND: How many inmates can come 18 in on one day? I mean, you mentioned twenty, thirty. I 19 mean, can -- sometimes you can have as many as what? 14:52 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: Oh, you can have as 21 many as fifty. 22 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And that would be 23 fifty hearings. And what I'm getting at is what do you 24 -- you can't get through fifty classifications unless 14:52 25 you -- you know, and review for each one all this 123 14:52 1 information, can you, in one day and still get these 2 people into a cell that night? 3 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, you can do it? 14:52 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, you can do it. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 7 MR. RIDLEY: What kind of quality goes 8 into that? Do you have a quality assurance program to 9 tell you whether or not, you know, you are effectively 14:52 10 classifying people? How do you do that with quality, 11 rush-rush? 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: No. They can also come 13 back and conduct audits to make sure that you're in 14 compliance and in accordance with agency policy. 14:53 15 MR. RIDLEY: Or does that happen after an 16 incident? 17 WARDEN CASTILLO: No. 18 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. 19 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Morgan, what is your 14:53 20 understanding of how much of a rape kit is supposed to 21 be, you know, used -- let me back up. 22 In '06, should your staff have done an 23 anal or an oral exam only if the victim said that he was 24 anally or orally penetrated? 14:54 25 WARDEN MORGAN: That would be left to 124 14:54 1 Office of Inspector General to request that or I would 2 defer to the medical department with the situation. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Castillo, what is 4 your understanding of what happens there? 14:54 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: That is left up to the 6 Office of the Inspector General, sir. 7 MR. McFARLAND: So do you not know what 8 goes on and what is the protocol in RMF that once a rape 9 kit is opened, whether an anal or oral exam is going to 14:54 10 be -- is going to be done? 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir, that's left up 12 to the investigator. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Well, the physician in 14 your RMF with whom we spoke on March 27th said that it 14:55 15 is done even after -- before or after ninety-six hours, 16 it's going to be done and it's going to be done -- 17 they're going to do the anal and oral exam regardless of 18 whether the individual alleges that it was just oral 19 sex. They are going to do an anal exam as well. So 14:55 20 does that refresh anybody's recollection as to what the 21 procedure is or was for the administration of a rape kit 22 and anal and oral exams? 23 WARDEN MORGAN: As I said, it would be at 24 the Office of Inspector General with his investigation 14:55 25 as to what the issues were, or the medical department as 125 14:55 1 to what they thought, again, whatever the issue, whether 2 it was anal or by the mouth or whatever -- as to what 3 they thought as a medical professional, what they felt 4 needed to be done at the time. 14:56 5 MR. McFARLAND: I just have a couple more 6 questions. How are gay, bi-sexual, lesbian, and 7 transgender inmates dealt with to prevent sexual 8 assaults at Estelle? Let me start with Mr. Morgan. 9 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, I think that boils 14:56 10 down to the classification. You know, in my -- 11 MR. McFARLAND: And will that information 12 be available on the -- 13 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, if I could 14 continue, please? 14:56 15 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, I'm sorry. 16 WARDEN MORGAN: When we receive an 17 inmate, that's by way, again, of the Bureau of 18 Classification. If, say, we had a transgendered inmate 19 who came into the system and he came in through our 14:56 20 diagnostic process, the determination is made at that 21 time whether he should go to a male or female facility 22 and to what custody level he should be, whether it 23 should be general population or whether it should be in 24 safekeeping. That is a recommendation that they give 14:57 25 us. Upon arrival at the unit we look at that and 126 14:57 1 consider what they have, "they" being the transferring 2 authority and the chief entity within the classification 3 bureau, what their recommendation is. We review the 4 file. Obviously, if you have a man come in with large 14:57 5 breasts, it's going to attract attention toward him and 6 I most certainly would not put him in population. I 7 mean, it's on a case-by-case basis as to how we're going 8 to do that. You know, I have seen cases where those 9 types of people had to go straight to protection because 14:57 10 we had to protect them because, you know, we have gang 11 showers and you can imagine what a commotion it would 12 be. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. What's a gang 14 shower? 14:58 15 WARDEN MORGAN: That's where all the 16 inmates -- it's a big shower, like twenty inmates may 17 shower at a time. 18 MR. McFARLAND: And is that supervised by 19 custodial staff? 14:58 20 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Male and female? 22 WARDEN CASTILLO: Most of the time it's 23 male. 24 WARDEN MORGAN: Male. 14:58 25 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Morgan, did you ever 127 14:58 1 have an instance where this has actually -- it sounds 2 like you've actually had this happen. Did you ever have 3 a transgendered inmate in your facility? 4 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 14:58 5 WARDEN CASTILLO: We currently have -- I 6 have seen one at Estelle and he's housed in safekeeping. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Mr. Morgan, how 8 did you deal with the transgender inmate? Was this 9 inmate immediately put into safekeeping? 14:58 10 WARDEN MORGAN: The one that I'm speaking 11 of, I don't -- it wasn't at Estelle, I don't believe. I 12 was on four or five other different units. We had 13 requested he be put on protection because his -- you 14 know, some of them come in with small, some of them with 14:59 15 big. These were too big for him not to be harassed so I 16 mean, to me, it's just common sense that he would need 17 to go. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Gentlemen, is it fair to 19 say that if you recommended that somebody be put in 14:59 20 safekeeping, it's going to happen? I mean there is 21 nobody in -- in Austin or Huntsville who is going to 22 veto what a warden says is necessary for the safekeeping 23 of one of his inmates? Is that a fair assumption to 24 make? 14:59 25 WARDEN CASTILLO: As a warden or an 128 14:59 1 assistant warden and a senior warden, there is times 2 that you can make recommendations and it is sent to the 3 Bureau of Classification and they could veto that, your 4 vote. 15:00 5 MR. McFARLAND: Even a recommendation by 6 you about the safekeeping of someone who is -- is, you 7 think, susceptible or vulnerable to sexual assault? Has 8 that ever happened? 9 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, it has happened 15:00 10 and that's when the -- a line of communication -- and 11 you pick up the phone and you talk to classification and 12 you tell them: Hey, it's imperative that I place this 13 inmate in safekeeping, and most of the time they're 14 going to assist you with that. 15:00 15 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Morgan, did you ever 16 have a different experience? I mean -- 17 WARDEN MORGAN: You know, what I would 18 say, you know, nine times out of ten they are going to 19 agree with what the unit recommends. 15:00 20 MR. McFARLAND: You bet you. 21 WARDEN MORGAN: We have had times that I 22 have picked up the phone myself, but in each time that 23 we did that, there was cooperation. Maybe the 24 classification department didn't send enough information 15:00 25 that they -- we needed to finish it up, but I can assure 129 15:01 1 you when a warden calls up there and says we've got a 2 problem, they're going to listen and if they don't, we 3 always have the director's review board and all we have 4 to do is call a regional director and it's going to be 15:01 5 taken care of. 6 MR. McFARLAND: The regional director is 7 going to back you -- 8 WARDEN MORGAN: Oh, yes, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: -- ninety-nine percent of 15:01 10 the time, right? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. Yes, sir, 12 because -- 13 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes. 14 WARDEN MORGAN: -- and I'm sure -- back 15:01 15 when I was here and I'm sure now, you know, we don't 16 call much but when we do call, we are needing some help 17 -- 18 MR. McFARLAND: You bet you. 19 WARDEN MORGAN: -- and that's the way it 15:01 20 should be. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Morgan, do you 22 remember the inmate by the name of Juan Lopez? 23 WARDEN MORGAN: Other than what I -- I 24 had forgotten about him until I read this and I looked 15:01 25 back and I -- yes, sir, it's in litigation. 130 15:01 1 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. Is that the 2 individual you were referring to earlier? 3 WARDEN MORGAN: No, sir, that's another 4 one. 15:01 5 MR. McFARLAND: All right. 6 WARDEN MORGAN: And I might add 7 ludicrous. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Lopez was ludicrous? 9 WARDEN MORGAN: That it's -- 15:02 10 MR. McFARLAND: His allegation of sexual 11 assault is ludicrous? 12 WARDEN MORGAN: As far as that I did, 13 yes, sir. 14 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Well, since 15:02 15 you said that, do you have an opinion as to the -- well, 16 I won't ask you that. 17 MS. HOWELL: Thank you. I would note 18 that the defendants in the lawsuit are the senior 19 warden, the two assistant wardens, a major, two 15:02 20 captains, a lieutenant, and a sergeant. 21 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 22 WARDEN MORGAN: All of whom allegedly 23 raped him. 24 MR. McFARLAND: You've got that January 15:02 25 25, 2008 article in the Huntsville Item in front of you? 131 15:02 1 WARDEN MORGAN: I could get it there, 2 sir. Let's see here. Okay, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: This is an allegation -- 4 oh, no, this is a report, a factual report -- 15:03 5 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 6 MR. McFARLAND: -- presumably, of an 7 inmate who died in Estelle February 6th, 2007, so this 8 would have been right about the time you were leaving, 9 Mr. Morgan? 15:03 10 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Do you remember the 12 inmate dying? 13 WARDEN MORGAN: He may have died after I 14 left, I don't remember, but yes, sir, I think I did. 15:03 15 MR. McFARLAND: Well, how often does an 16 inmate die at Estelle? 17 WARDEN MORGAN: Well, considering that we 18 have a geriatric center, we have quite a few, and the 19 regional medical facility we have. 15:04 20 MR. McFARLAND: All right. How many 21 inmates die violently and not by old age at Estelle? 22 Pretty rare occasion or is that a -- 23 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So can you recall 15:04 25 whether he died on your watch or not? 132 15:04 1 WARDEN MORGAN: To tell you the truth, 2 sir, I don't remember. It was right -- it was right 3 on -- there -- it may have been me. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Now, the article 15:04 5 says -- because we don't have anything else about this, 6 the article says that -- it quotes Inspector General 7 John Moriarty, who we had at an earlier hearing, as, 8 quote: It's my firm belief we got to the bottom of what 9 happened, he said, pointing at a lack of proper medical 15:05 10 response within the prison. And then he says that 11 investigators came to the, quote, collective conclusion 12 we had a criminally negligent homicide. Do you think 13 that there was a -- a lack of a proper medical response 14 in this particular case at Estelle? 15:05 15 WARDEN MORGAN: I don't have the medical 16 background to make that determination, sir. 17 MR. McFARLAND: What did you do, Mr. 18 Castillo, if anything, to prevent the recurrence of what 19 happened to Mr. Cox at Estelle? 15:05 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: Well, the only thing 21 that we have emphasized is that you make an effort and 22 try to solve the problem, calm the inmate, and also to 23 place the inmate in an upright position whenever 24 possible and just follow your use of force plan. 15:06 25 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: This is 133 15:06 1 Mr. Quarterman. I would like to make one comment on 2 that incident. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Can I get your 4 comment just as soon as we finish this -- the factual 15:06 5 testimony about Mr. Cox and then I'd love to hear what 6 you have to say. 7 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Okay, great. 8 MR. McFARLAND: So, Mr. Castillo, did any 9 policies change, did any training change, did any 15:06 10 assignments change, was there any staff discipline, did 11 anything change after Mr. Cox died with a broken back 12 and a -- neck injuries, head injuries and neck injuries? 13 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir, not that I'm 14 aware of. 15:07 15 MR. McFARLAND: As senior warden there, 16 and I -- and understanding that it was about, you know, 17 a matter of days or a couple weeks right before you got 18 there, I guess, I imagine this would be a pretty -- this 19 would attract plenty of your attention, I would think; 15:07 20 is that right? 21 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: And you had a key state 23 senator being quoted on the -- in the newspaper talking 24 about staff shortages and, quote: I think there is 15:07 25 enough blame to go around, close quote, and so forth. I 134 15:07 1 imagine this was a pretty big deal when you arrived? 2 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. Well, the 3 only thing, like I indicated, awhile ago is emphasizing 4 a training, emphasizing things that could go wrong and 15:08 5 just ensuring that your staff is following the policy. 6 MR. McFARLAND: What policy was violated 7 here? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: There was no violation 9 of policy. 15:08 10 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: You just want to make 12 sure they're following policy. 13 MR. McFARLAND: So other than keeping the 14 person upright, there is nothing that you thought needed 15:08 15 to be changed in the handling of this -- the handling of 16 a case like Mr. Cox? 17 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 18 MR. RIDLEY: Question, do you all use 19 video cams for incidents like this? 15:09 20 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 21 MR. RIDLEY: Did you use one in this 22 situation? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 24 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. And it reflected 15:09 25 what? 135 15:09 1 WARDEN MORGAN: That all staff acted 2 appropriately and were cleared through the Office of 3 Inspector General. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Well, that inspector 15:09 5 general said that the collective conclusion was 6 criminally negligent homicide, but I don't think the -- 7 WARDEN MORGAN: I think that was -- other 8 than security, I believe that was on medical, sir. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, I see. These are 15:09 10 your prison medical staff, though, right? 11 WARDEN MORGAN: They're contracted by the 12 University of Texas Medical Branch. 13 MR. RIDLEY: They report to -- 14 MS. HOWELL: If I can interrupt right 15:09 15 here. It's a very complicated statutory reporting 16 structure. The legislature has imposed -- has required 17 the prison system to contract with two of the flagship 18 universities in the State of Texas, one of which is the 19 University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston, the 15:10 20 other which is Texas Tech University out in Lubbock. 21 They had the State divided. UTMB has about two-thirds 22 of the State and the Estelle Unit falls within their -- 23 the medical people report to a correctional-managed 24 health care committee and it's all set up by statute. 15:10 25 And UT -- and the prison system has some -- has some 136 15:10 1 oversight of medical practices but cannot -- through 2 audit, et cetera, but cannot tell medical what to do. 3 MR. RIDLEY: So the warden within the 4 confines of his institution has very little, if any, 15:10 5 authority over the medical? 6 MS. HOWELL: That would be correct, sir. 7 MR. RIDLEY: Okay. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And Mr. Castillo, is it 9 correct that no one was criminally prosecuted in that 15:11 10 case? 11 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. As of this 12 time, yes, there is -- nobody has been charged. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. And was anybody 14 disciplined, any staff disciplined in that incident? 15:11 15 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Not correctional 16 staff. 17 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry, did you 18 answer, sir? 19 WARDEN CASTILLO: Not correctional staff. 15:11 20 MR. McFARLAND: Any of your 500 staff at 21 the time, were any of them -- have any of them been 22 disciplined in connection with the death of Mr. Cox? 23 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Have you recommended that 15:11 25 anybody be disciplined? 137 15:11 1 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 2 MR. McFARLAND: So you would attribute 3 any criminal negligent homicide to the medical 4 contractors, not anybody that you have any control over; 15:12 5 is that your testimony? 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: Could you repeat the 7 question? 8 MR. McFARLAND: The inspector general is 9 quoted as saying that the -- this is a case of 15:12 10 criminally negligent homicide, and I'm trying to find 11 out whether anybody was prosecuted or disciplined for 12 such negligence. 13 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, not correctional 14 staff. Now, as far as medical, I don't know if they 15:12 15 took any action against medical staff. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Let me ask you this: If 17 you thought that the medical staff had allowed an inmate 18 in your institution to lay in his own filth on the floor 19 with a broken back and neck injuries and then die, would 15:13 20 you have no authority to affect -- to prevent that from 21 recurring? 22 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes. I mean you 23 couldn't -- if that actually happened like that, sir, 24 you couldn't allow it as a senior warden. 15:13 25 MR. McFARLAND: I'm sorry, you could or 138 15:13 1 you couldn't prevent that again? Couldn't you appeal to 2 somebody and say, I don't care what you think about 3 these Galveston County Medical folks; these folks are 4 incompetent and here's proof and we're not -- you know, 15:13 5 we're not going to have these people taking care of or 6 ignoring our prisoners anymore? Is there no mechanism 7 in TDCJ for you as the senior warden to change that? 8 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, you can. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. So you don't think 15:14 10 that needs -- that anything needs to change in light of 11 the Cox case? 12 WARDEN CASTILLO: In medical? 13 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, in medical. 14 WARDEN CASTILLO: I would think that they 15:14 15 have -- most likely have made some changes. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Well, my question is: 17 Did you insist on it? Have you asked anybody to make 18 some changes so that this would not happen as a result 19 of -- of anything that your medical staff in prison are 15:14 20 doing or not doing? 21 WARDEN CASTILLO: No, sir. 22 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Well, I don't 23 have any other questions. Counsel, will the travel 24 cards be included in those -- the information you are 15:15 25 going to send us on those eleven Estelle IOIs? 139 15:15 1 MS. HOWELL: I shall make it so. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Thank you. That would be 3 great. Well, Mr. Morgan and Mr. Castillo, thank you 4 very much for putting up with three and a quarter hours 15:15 5 of questions. 6 WARDEN CASTILLO: Yes, sir. 7 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And Mr. Quarterman, you 9 had a comment you wanted to make on the record? 15:15 10 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Yes, several 11 comments but in relation to the Cox case, it was medical 12 disciplinaries and terminations and it was some action 13 done by the agency towards UTMB that was important for 14 us to establish a good line of communication from 15:15 15 security to medical and then provide 911 service as 16 necessary to bypass anything of that sort again. 17 Also, I want you to know that it was a 18 senate hearing where we were requested to be there to 19 testimony on this particular case. It was also 15:16 20 investigated by the Texas Rangers and other law 21 enforcement that cleared our security staff. It is 22 another review of licenses being taken from the medical 23 people. It's being done. And it was an emergency 24 meeting with my directors to talk about any -- any 15:16 25 inappropriate medical attention we think is necessary 140 15:16 1 for our offenders, we will shout it, we will call, we 2 will notify upper brass to get help there. These are 3 just some of the things we did. Now -- 4 MR. McFARLAND: But none of that was the 15:16 5 result of your senior warden insisting on it being done? 6 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Well, no, because 7 when the report came to us we took action. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah, okay. 9 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: But let me tell you 15:17 10 about some other things that I wanted to put on the 11 record. And it was good because, you know, you came to 12 Texas, you talked to a lot of my staff members, and it 13 was some briefing done out to a lot of our -- because 14 in, generally, the five units -- we're talking about a 15:17 15 big system of 118 units. We wanted to make sure that 16 we're going in the positive way. One of the things we 17 are looking at and we are redeveloping and we are about 18 to put out, at least on our five units as the five units 19 that were identified in PREA, we're going to use them -- 15:17 20 those five units as pod sites for some additional 21 training relating to silence, officer silence and try to 22 make it effective. We are going to try that training 23 this month on our new wardens. That training to me is 24 real critical. It was published by Brenda Smith. We 15:17 25 think that is going to be in addition to the training 141 15:18 1 that we are giving now. We are going to modify a lot of 2 that element into our consistent training we are doing 3 now. 4 The second thing we're doing is -- and we 15:18 5 have done this in the last three years -- when we put in 6 camera systems now, they will have the capability of 7 recording. We believe that you cannot do one without 8 the other. It's a necessity and it's a standard that 9 we're putting in place that we will be able to record 15:18 10 all our -- our video of surveillance we do throughout 11 the system. Now, one of the things that I am working 12 really tough on is prioritizing how we lay that program 13 out and we're looking at that quite clearly. 14 One of the things we've mentioned is 15:18 15 staffing, and the staffing is done by our security 16 system. There's a department within CID, my agency, my 17 department, my division and in that staffing we have 18 priorities. We have priority 1 positions, priority 2s 19 and priority 3s and it outlines what activity. When we 15:19 20 don't have available staff, we have -- it's mandatory 21 that every warden has to do their priority 1s and 22 priority 2 positions. Their priority 3 positions is 23 what relates to activities, outside activities. Those 24 things are reduced when we have shortfalls of employees 15:19 25 and that is common throughout the nation, and this is 142 15:19 1 something that we work with NIC to develop and we are 2 going to audit all our units before October 1st to 3 establish guidelines of where that activity will stop 4 and will pick up and we will continue the activities by 15:19 5 other means, so that's something. 6 Another thing that came out after you 7 left is a new recruiting strategy where we are now 8 paying on Estelle Unit, as a matter of fact, a $1,500 9 sign-on bonus. Any employee who -- new hire that will 15:19 10 go to Estelle will get paid an additional $1,500. We 11 have now reduced our career ladder that new employees 12 are getting a lot better pay, ten percent more than the 13 last employees got last month. So that's one of the 14 things we're doing to enhance our ability to hire and to 15:20 15 compete with the market that's here in Texas. And I 16 just wanted to put it on the record that that was some 17 of the things, and some of the things -- recommendations 18 you made about the rape kit being logged in and tracked, 19 that is in place. So we have looked at our testimony 15:20 20 and things that were said by both Panel members at our 21 hearing and we are looking at ways to better our 22 processes. 23 And I think intel came out -- a little 24 about intel. And one of the things I want to share with 15:20 25 you about intel, that we get information by several 143 15:20 1 elements, our gang intelligence, our extortion officers, 2 our Safe Prison sergeants, and also our mail room. 3 We're trying to put up ways that we can communicate that 4 information across the board because it is a common 15:21 5 factor. It's a common factor that victims are 6 victimized pretty much consistent across all those 7 elements and we wanted to kind of share that information 8 in one database that we can prevent possible 9 victimizations being done, so that's one of the things 15:21 10 we're working really hard on. And that's it. I didn't 11 want to bore you too much, but I think -- 12 MR. McFARLAND: No, sir, I appreciate it. 13 That's great stuff. 14 DIRECTOR QUARTERMAN: Well, and we're 15:21 15 serious. And I want to reply with Mr. Livingston, we 16 are very serious about it, we are not taking it 17 backseat, we are moving forward, we are funding these 18 positions that were part of the grant and we are -- our 19 legislative leadership has had three hearings. In that 15:22 20 hearings we have reported on the PREA process, so it is 21 a lot of attention being given to PREA here in Texas 22 that will continue and we will continue our effort to 23 better ourselves. 24 MR. McFARLAND: Well, I sure appreciate 15:22 25 that, Mr. Quarterman. And Mr. Morgan, could I ask you 144 15:22 1 one last question? You still there? 2 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 3 MR. McFARLAND: Where are you now? What 4 are you doing in Louisiana in corrections? 15:22 5 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir, I work for the 6 Corrections Corporation of America. 7 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, CCA, all right. And 8 may I ask, did you leave -- did you leave on good 9 standing from TDCJ? 15:22 10 WARDEN MORGAN: By all means, sir. 11 MR. McFARLAND: All right. 12 WARDEN MORGAN: The man is here. The 13 director can tell you if you don't believe me. 14 MR. McFARLAND: I believe you. 15:23 15 WARDEN MORGAN: This thing here coincided 16 at a bad time just when I -- and he -- as a matter of 17 fact, he and I had a lot of dialogue about this even 18 after I was gone about the issues and what was going on 19 with that thing and it was just a very unfortunate issue 15:23 20 -- thing that happened. 21 MR. McFARLAND: You mean Mr. Cox? 22 WARDEN MORGAN: Yes, sir. 23 MR. McFARLAND: So you had a lot of 24 dialogue on that but you didn't have any dialogue on 15:23 25 sexual assault? 145 15:23 1 WARDEN MORGAN: Not after I left. 2 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. All right. Well, 3 thank you, gentlemen, and thank you, Sharon and Cindi 4 and Mr. Bales and we appreciate very much your 15:23 5 accommodating this and I hope that we can continue to 6 work together to prevent this from ever recurring. 7 MS. HOWELL: As do we, sir. 8 MR. McFARLAND: All right. Thank you 9 all. 15:23 10 MS. HOWELL: Thank you. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Bye-bye. 12 (Adjourned at 3:23 p.m.) 13 ******************************* 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 146 15:23 1 STATE OF TEXAS 2 3 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 4 April 30, 2008 15:23 5 6 I, Cindi L. Bench, the undersigned Certified 7 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, 8 certify that the facts stated in the foregoing pages are 9 true and correct. 15:23 10 I further certify that I am neither attorney or 11 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any parties to 12 the action in which this testimony is taken and, 13 further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 14 counsel employed by the parties hereto or financially 15:23 15 interested in the action. 16 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO under my hand and seal of 17 office on this the _______ day of _____________________, 18 ______. 19 ______________________________ 15:23 20 Cindi L. Bench, CSR Texas CSR 752 21 Expiration: 12/31/08 CINDI BENCH REPORTING 22 101 Southwestern Blvd., #145 Sugar Land, Texas 77478 23 281 565-8222 Fax 281 565-8220 Firm Registration No. 56 24 25