1 1 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OFFICE OF JUSTICE PROGRAMS 2 3 REVIEW PANEL ON PRISON RAPE 4 5 HEARINGS ON RAPE AND STAFF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT IN U.S. JAILS 6 7 8 9 Friday, October 31, 2008 10 7:05 a.m. - 8:45 a.m. 11 Torrance County Detention Facility County Road 49 12 Estancia, New Mexico 87016 13 14 15 16 Panel Members: 17 Mr. Steven McFarland, Chair Ms. Caroll Ann Ellis 18 Ms. Gwendolyn Chunn 19 20 21 22 REPORTED BY: Melissa Correa, RPR, CCR #279 Bean & Associates, Inc. 23 Professional Court Reporting Service 500 Marquette, Northwest, Suite 280 24 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87102 25 (1421D) MEL 2 1 PARTICIPANTS: 2 Mr. Steve McFarland, Director, Task Force for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, U.S. 3 Department of Justice 4 Mr. Rob Siedlecki, Senior Legal Counsel, Task Force for Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, 5 U.S. Department of Justice 6 Ms. Gwendolyn Chunn, Executive Director (Ret'd.), Juvenile Justice Institute, North Caroline 7 Central University 8 WITNESSES: 9 Michael Barry Varnum, Assistant Warden, Torrance County Detention Facility 10 Maria Sanchez, Former PREA Coordinator, 11 Torrance County Detention Facility 12 13 I N D E X 14 PAGE 15 EXAMINATION OF MICHAEL VARNUM 16 BY MR. McFARLAND 5 17 EXAMINATION OF MARIA SANCHEZ 18 BY MR. McFARLAND 10 BY MS. CHUNN 13 19 BY MR. McFARLAND 13 20 EXAMINATION OF MICHAEL VARNUM 21 BY MR. McFARLAND 15 22 EXAMINATION OF MARIA SANCHEZ 23 BY MR. McFARLAND 19 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 23 24 BY MR. McFARLAND 29 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 29 25 BY MR. McFARLAND 31 3 1 EXAMINATION OF MICHAEL VARNUM 2 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 32 3 EXAMINATION OF MARIA SANCHEZ 4 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 35 BY MR. McFARLAND 35 5 EXAMINATION OF MICHAEL VARNUM 6 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 37 7 BY MR. McFARLAND 38 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 42 8 BY MS. CHUNN 45 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 45 9 BY MS. CHUNN 46 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 47 10 BY MR. McFARLAND 47 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 48 11 BY MR. McFARLAND 50 12 EXAMINATION OF MARIA SANCHEZ 13 BY MR. McFARLAND 53 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 53 14 EXAMINATION OF MICHAEL VARNUM 15 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 54 16 BY MR. McFARLAND 57 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 58 17 BY MR. McFARLAND 58 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 59 18 BY MR. McFARLAND 60 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 60 19 EXAMINATION OF MARIA SANCHEZ 20 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 63 21 EXAMINATION OF MICHAEL VARNUM 22 BY MS. CHUNN 64 23 24 25 4 1 EXAMINATION OF MARIA SANCHEZ 2 BY MR. McFARLAND 64 BY MS. CHUNN 66 3 BY MR. McFARLAND 67 4 EXAMINATION OF MICHAEL VARNUM 5 BY MR. McFARLAND 70 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 72 6 BY MR. McFARLAND 74 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 76 7 BY MR. McFARLAND 77 BY MR. SIEDLECKI 77 8 BY MR. McFARLAND 77 9 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 80 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 MR. McFARLAND: Mr. Varnum, would you 2 please state your full name and your present job 3 title, please? 4 MR. VARNUM: Michael Barry Varnum, 5 Assistant Warden of Operations. 6 Q. And, Ms. Sanchez, please? 7 A. Maria Sanchez. I am currently the area 8 director of Valencia Counseling in Estancia, 9 New Mexico. 10 Q. That's area director of -- 11 A. Valencia Counseling. 12 Q. Okay. So you are no longer currently an 13 employee of the Corrections Corporation of America? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. When did you leave Torrance County 16 Detention Facility? 17 A. Last November, the end of November. 18 Q. Okay. All righty. 19 MICHAEL VARNUM 20 (after being duly sworn, testified as follows:) 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. McFARLAND: 23 Q. In August of last year, 2007, Mr. Varnum, 24 what was your job in Torrance County Detention 25 Facility? 6 1 A. Assistant warden of Programs. 2 Q. And how long had you been in that role? 3 A. Since December of 2006. 4 Q. And what was your position -- your 5 responsibilities at Torrance prior to December '06? 6 A. I was the chief of security in Shelby, 7 Montana. 8 Q. Was that with the Montana Department of 9 Corrections? 10 A. That was still with CCA. 11 Q. Oh, okay. So when did you first begin 12 working at Torrance County Detention Facility? 13 A. December 2006. 14 Q. December of '06? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. And in August of '07, what 17 responsibilities did you have as assistant warden 18 for Programs? 19 A. I oversaw the Education Department, Health 20 Department, Maintenance, Food Service, Fire and 21 Safety. All the Programs Department I oversaw. 22 Q. So that was Education, Health, 23 Maintenance, Inmate Safety? 24 A. Fire and Safety. 25 Q. Fire and Safety. 7 1 A. Food Service. 2 Q. Yeah. And did you have any 3 responsibilities in August of '07 for investigating 4 either staff misconduct or inmate-on-inmate 5 misconduct? 6 A. Yes, sir. If there was staff misconduct, 7 I normally investigated that. 8 Q. By the way, Mr. Varnum, how -- I want to 9 be sensitive to your recent health concerns. How 10 are you feeling today? 11 A. I'm good. 12 Q. Okay. Any reason, by reason of medication 13 or otherwise, that you wouldn't be able to give us 14 your best testimony this morning? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Okay. Well, I'm glad to hear you're 17 feeling better. 18 A. Thank you. 19 Q. And what about any kind of 20 inmate-on-inmate assaults of any kind? Would you 21 have in August of '07 been involved in any way in 22 that sort of activity or investigation? 23 A. No, sir. I didn't do too -- I didn't do 24 that. All I done was, if it was a staff misconduct, 25 that's the ones I usually investigated. 8 1 Q. I see. Do you recall the representatives 2 from the Bureau of Justice Statistics or their 3 contractors coming to Torrance in August of '07 to 4 conduct the National Inmate Survey there? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Okay. What was your involvement in that? 7 A. I arranged for all the inmates to be 8 interviewed and made sure we got them all up there 9 for them. As a matter of fact -- 10 Q. How were the inmates selected, or do 11 you -- if you know? 12 A. They just told us who they wanted. 13 Q. Oh, okay. And from which populations were 14 the surveyed inmates drawn? 15 A. I believe it was the State and maybe the 16 County inmates. But I know it was the State 17 inmates. 18 Q. Yeah. So what about -- the INS wasn't 19 there at the time, right? You didn't have ICE or 20 immigration inmates at the facility in August of 21 '07; is that correct? 22 A. Mr. McFarland, I'm sure we had a few. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. But I don't think that they were 25 interviewed. 9 1 Q. Yeah. And neither were the Marshal 2 Service inmates; is that right? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Okay. Were there women interviewed in the 5 survey? 6 A. I don't recall having any of them escorted 7 up there. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. What preparation have you had an 11 opportunity to do prior to your testimony today? 12 Like, for example, have you had a chance to review 13 any files? 14 A. I've got the paperwork that we sent y'all. 15 Q. Yeah. So you mean the documents that we 16 requested and that were produced by CCA? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Have you had a chance to review any of 19 that? 20 A. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, it looks 21 like we -- 22 Q. Were there any other documents that you've 23 been provided by CCA or any legal counsel in 24 preparation for today? 25 A. No, sir. 10 1 Q. Okay. Have you had a chance to talk to 2 anybody at CCA, either their regional or their 3 national headquarters? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. All righty. 6 MARIA SANCHEZ 7 (being previously duly sworn, testified as follows:) 8 FURTHER EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. McFARLAND: 10 Q. Ms. Sanchez, same sort of introductory 11 questions for you. What were your responsibilities 12 at Torrance County Detention Facility in August of 13 '07? 14 A. I was Mental Health coordinator-supervisor 15 at that time, in August of '07. I oversaw three 16 Mental Health therapists at that time and also a 17 substance abuse counselor at that time. They were 18 counseling -- let's see. One counselor oversaw the 19 State inmates, and she counseled State -- State 20 inmates, and two of the other counselors saw Federal 21 inmates. And the other individual, the drug 22 counselor, mostly was in the Education building 23 doing drug and alcohol classes and so forth. 24 Q. Did you have any other job 25 responsibilities at Torrance as of August of '07? 11 1 A. Yes, I did. I oversaw the files, 2 paperwork, made sure that State files were up to par 3 with policies, made sure that the Federal files were 4 up to par, made sure that we were following 5 guidelines and so forth, made sure that we were 6 doing the classes and training for the classes that 7 we had for the officers and the staff. 8 Q. In what area? Training in what area for 9 the staff? 10 A. For the staff in suicide prevention, drug 11 and alcohol, mental illness. We did have some rape 12 prevention. We did some of the PREA videotape. We 13 did do that. Not a videotape but a disk, a DVD 14 thing. We also did -- let's see what else. I can't 15 even remember what we had right now. It's been a 16 while. 17 Q. Yeah. Who at Torrance in the first half 18 of 2007 leading up to the survey in August was 19 primarily responsible, you know, the point person 20 for PREA -- that's PREA -- 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. -- Prison Rape Elimination Act, 23 compliance? 24 A. That was me. 25 Q. Okay. So if the buck stopped with anybody 12 1 in PREA, it stopped with you? That was primarily 2 your responsibility, subject, of course, to the 3 warden; is that right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Okay. And what training had you had to 6 prepare you for your responsibilities as the PREA 7 point person? 8 A. Pretty much very, very, very little. 9 Q. Okay. Like what? 10 A. Zilch. 11 Q. Okay. So did anybody give you a copy of 12 PREA to read? 13 A. There was a copy of PREA given. There was 14 a DVD given. I think that, everything that's going 15 on -- I think that the people who were 16 interviewed -- primarily it was State that was 17 interviewed. 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. I think those individuals that were 20 interviewed, they also were given out -- every State 21 individual is in Mental Health. When they are 22 interviewed by Mental Health, they are given a form, 23 and they are explained -- or rather, it is explained 24 to them about if they should have problems with any 25 type of sexual aggression coming against them or 13 1 anything like that, how to get a hold of Mental 2 Health, how to do certain -- how to, you know, go 3 about getting help if needed. And they sign off on 4 that paper. And it goes into their file. 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MS. CHUNN: 7 Q. Are you saying that that was the case 8 then, or that is the case now? 9 A. That is the case in the paperwork that -- 10 some of the paperwork we sent you then. And that is 11 the case, I believe, now. We don't even have State 12 inmates at this point now, from what I understand. 13 FURTHER EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. McFARLAND: 15 Q. I'm sorry. "We don't even have" -- what? 16 A. I mean, what I am saying is that they 17 don't even have State inmates at this point now. 18 Q. Oh, that's right. Right. Right. So 19 you're saying that each new inmate, at least each of 20 the new State inmates were briefed when they would 21 first be admitted on what to do to prevent or 22 protect themselves against sexual aggression? 23 A. That's in the handbook. And that's also 24 when they are a Mental Health client. 25 Q. Oh, okay. All right. So what you just 14 1 described, as far as this briefing on how to protect 2 against sexual aggression, that was given to every 3 Mental Health client; is that right? 4 A. That's given to every Mental Health client 5 in the State and -- 6 Q. Among the New Mexico Department of 7 Corrections inmates? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. All right. 10 A. And that's also given -- 11 Q. Now, if they were not a Mental Health -- 12 you know, what about the rest of the population? 13 Did you provide -- 14 A. I just stated that in stating that it 15 comes with the CCA handbook that they hand out here. 16 Q. Yeah. As of 2007, were all of the 17 New Mexico DOC inmates given a handbook when they 18 first arrived, or do you know? 19 A. That I don't know. But I'm pretty sure 20 they did. 21 Q. Okay. What was your involvement in 22 training or orienting the new State prisoners back 23 in '07? 24 A. I did not orient the new inmates because 25 that's not my area. 15 1 Q. Yeah. Who was doing that? 2 A. I believe Warden Varnum can answer that. 3 MS. SANCHEZ: Could you answer that, 4 Warden? 5 MR. VARNUM: Juan Ibarra would have been 6 overseeing that, Mr. McFarland, through the 7 classification. 8 MR. McFARLAND: Yeah. 9 MR. VARNUM: The case members would have 10 been the ones that done the orientation. 11 MR. McFARLAND: Yes, sir. 12 MICHAEL VARNUM 13 (being previously duly sworn, testified as follows:) 14 FURTHER EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. McFARLAND: 16 Q. Warden Varnum, do you know whether all 17 New Mexico DOC inmates were routinely given the CCA 18 handbook in '07? 19 A. They're supposed to be given the handbook 20 for each inmate that comes into this facility. Now, 21 I can't sit here and say every single inmate 22 received one because we might have missed a couple. 23 Q. Sure. 24 A. But that's the routine, is they get a 25 handbook when they come into the facility, as far 16 1 as -- 2 Q. Was that the routine in 2007? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Okay. And is there a section, Warden 5 Varnum, in the CCA handbook that talks about sexual 6 assault? 7 A. I'm pretty sure that that's in there under 8 Mental Health. But I know that I made them put it 9 under PREA, a separate thing by itself, when we 10 updated the handbook. 11 Q. And when was that done? 12 A. I can't give you an answer to that, sir. 13 Q. Was it done before or after you became 14 assistant warden for Programs, as opposed to 15 Operations? 16 A. I had them do it while I was assistant 17 warden of Programs. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. But I can't give you a specific date 20 because I don't remember when we updated the 21 handbook. 22 Q. Yeah. Was it before or after the survey 23 that the handbook was updated? 24 A. It should have been before. 25 Q. Okay. 17 1 A. Because I used to teach the PREA class. 2 And whenever I reviewed the handbook, I saw that it 3 wasn't in there. So I know I made them do it when 4 we updated it again. 5 Q. Well, tell me about the PREA class. Who 6 would get that and when and how long was it and what 7 would you discuss? 8 A. Every employee that came into the facility 9 that started the facility we offered the PREA class. 10 And then on the in-service, everybody has to take 11 it. And I would teach what I was taught whenever I 12 went through the training with the Moss Group in 13 Montana. And we'd go by the lesson plan, and then 14 we'd show the video -- the DVDs. 15 Q. Was there a PREA class for prisoners? 16 A. No, sir, not that I'm aware of. 17 Q. In the orientation -- and I realize you 18 said Mr. Ibarra would probably know best. But do 19 you know if -- to what extent in '07 prisoners -- 20 new prisoners, when they were given the handbook, if 21 they were, were specifically pointed to the section 22 about sexual assault? In other words, you know, I 23 assume this thing is -- you know, is a few pages 24 long, you know, 20 or 30 pages of various, you know, 25 covering every aspect of life in the facility; is 18 1 that right? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And so I'm assuming that there wasn't -- 4 you didn't take the time to let them read through 5 the whole thing, assuming they could read; is that 6 correct, in the orientation? 7 A. No, sir. We didn't sit there and let them 8 read the whole thing while we were doing the 9 orientation. 10 Q. Right. Could they take a copy with 11 them -- 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. -- or were they supposed to hand them back 14 in? 15 A. No, sir. They were to take it with them 16 and familiarize themselves with the entire handbook. 17 Q. Sure. And do you know if any particular 18 sections, including the sexual assault section, you 19 know, was particularly pointed out? In other words, 20 "All right, ma'am," you know, "you're supposed to 21 familiarize yourself with this. Read it as soon as 22 you can. But we particularly want to point out the 23 following sections," you know, "and one of them is 24 about staff sexual misconduct and the 25 inmate-on-inmate sexual misconduct"? Was anything 19 1 like that a regular, routine part of the 2 distribution of the CCA handbook in '07? 3 A. Mr. McFarland, there's a check sheet that 4 the classification team goes over and has the 5 inmates initial off on for what they've covered in 6 the handbook. But I don't -- I know that's part of 7 the Mental Health questionnaire. 8 Q. Okay. 9 MARIA SANCHEZ 10 (being previously duly sworn, testified as follows:) 11 FURTHER EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. McFARLAND: 13 Q. Ms. Sanchez -- 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. -- just to make sure I understood 16 correctly, then, you're saying that a Mental Health 17 client among the New Mexico prisoners in 2007 would 18 specifically be told about sexual aggression and how 19 to avoid it; is that right? 20 A. Yes, sir. There was a form that they 21 would sign. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. And we would explain it to them. 24 MR. McFARLAND: By the way, is there 25 anybody else in the room? Anybody else from the -- 20 1 from Torrance County Detention Facility within 2 earshot? 3 MR. VARNUM: No, sir. 4 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. I'll just make a 5 note to myself to ask Warden Ezell if we could get a 6 copy of the document Ms. Sanchez just described, 7 because I don't recall seeing it. I may -- there 8 were a lot of documents, but I don't recall 9 anything. I think I probably would have if we had 10 seen it. 11 MS. SANCHEZ: Actually, it was sent to 12 you. It's in the forms. I recall reviewing the 13 forms that they sent to you all. 14 MR. McFARLAND: Oh, all right. 15 MS. SANCHEZ: It is in the forms. 16 Q. (By Mr. McFarland) Okay. Do you remember 17 what it would say at the top of the form? 18 A. It is a State form. And I can't recall 19 offhand. Let me see if I can -- 20 Q. All right. Well, we'll -- if you think of 21 it, just let me know. That will be helpful. We'll 22 take another look. 23 Ms. Sanchez, what preparation have you had 24 an opportunity to do for your testimony today? Any 25 files that you reviewed or any conversations you've 21 1 had with lawyers or CCA or wardens or anybody else? 2 A. Same thing as Warden Varnum. 3 Q. Okay. And what about reviewing any papers 4 or files? 5 A. I've reviewed the same thing as Warden 6 Varnum. 7 Q. Okay. Haven't spoken with anybody from 8 CCA or -- 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Okay. When -- forgive me if you already 11 said this, but when did you cease working for CCA? 12 A. When did I what? 13 Q. When did you stop working for CCA? 14 A. November 2007. 15 Q. And would you be interested in working for 16 CCA in the future? 17 A. Oh, heck, yeah. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. If I could, I would work for them 20 tomorrow. 21 Q. So you left on good terms? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. I left because my mother has dementia, and 25 she's 87 years old. 22 1 Q. I'm sorry. 2 A. Thank you. 3 Q. I'm glad to hear that she's lived that 4 long, a full life. 5 A. Oh, yeah. She's a strong-willed woman, 6 so ... 7 Q. It's good of you to be looking after her. 8 A. Thank you. 9 MR. McFARLAND: Well, Gwen, do you have 10 some questions before Rob talks about some of the 11 incidents that -- 12 MS. CHUNN: No, I don't. 13 MR. McFARLAND: Okay. Warden Varnum and 14 Ms. Sanchez, Rob Siedlecki is our senior legal 15 counsel here in the office. And I've asked him to 16 handle the rest of the questioning. I may interject 17 here and there. But he has gone through all the 18 documents twice, and I've only gone through them 19 once, so ... 20 MR. SIEDLECKI: Checking them twice, yeah. 21 MR. McFARLAND: So ... 22 MR. SIEDLECKI: Before I get to the 23 investigation, I just would like to ask each of you 24 just a couple of basic questions that would sort of 25 help us in our analysis. And I guess I'll start 23 1 with you, Ms. Sanchez. 2 MS. SANCHEZ: Uh-huh. 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 5 Q. What inmates are most likely to be victims 6 of sexual assault in your facility? And when you 7 give your answer, if you could tell us what you're 8 basing your analysis on. Is it your opinion? 9 Firsthand experience? Based on reading materials? 10 MR. McFARLAND: Education. 11 Q. Education? 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Who would be most likely to be victims of 14 sexual assault in your -- in the Torrance facility? 15 A. Okay. Let me base it -- number one, I 16 usually -- I'm more analytical, so let me base it on 17 my education, number one. I have, number one, my 18 bachelor's education. I have a double major in 19 business and human services. My master's, of 20 course, is in counseling. I am finishing up my 21 dissertation right now in education with an emphasis 22 in pastoral counseling. 23 Q. Great. 24 A. So mine would be basically -- number one, 25 based on my education, would be the individuals with 24 1 some developmental disabilities -- 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. -- and the mental illness. So those 4 individuals I would be worried for, and also 5 individuals who have -- transgender, transsexual. 6 And these individuals we did our utmost to 7 protect -- 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. -- and we were aware of. And I had my 10 counselors closely watching them. We did move them 11 when needed. We moved them into different areas in 12 medical, different areas into solitary cells when we 13 needed to, if they requested, or if we saw that 14 there was extreme agitation or extreme anxiety 15 building up in them -- 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. -- and when they requested, as well. We 18 just depended upon their request. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Also, those areas are where we were 21 watching very, very closely. Also -- 22 Q. Who you watched very closely? 23 A. We were watching those areas very closely 24 and individuals who were coming in very young, 25 individuals who were first-timers that came in, 25 1 individuals who were -- you know, the first-time-in 2 20-year-olds who you might call green. 3 Q. Yeah. 4 A. Yeah. So we were watching these guys come 5 in so that they wouldn't be -- I mean, they were at 6 risk. They were high risk. So we were watching 7 these guys. We were making sure they were safe and, 8 you know, doing what we could. So we followed 9 closely. 10 Q. Well, what did you do to watch them -- the 11 young, green ones to make sure they were safe? 12 A. They were being called into the offices 13 and being watched, having the officers making sure 14 they were being talked to quite a bit. In other 15 words, we had -- 16 Q. Does your facility have an intercom 17 system? 18 (A discussion was held off the record.) 19 THE COURT REPORTER: Sir, this is the -- 20 Q. My question was, at the facility, is there 21 an intercom system where a prisoner -- a staff 22 member could talk directly to the prisoner and vice 23 versa? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. What about physical attributes of 26 1 an inmate? 2 A. Small. Usually they were -- this is where 3 I was talking to you about individuals who were 4 young -- 5 Q. Sure. 6 A. -- small individuals who were 7 transgendered or transsexual, who were changing, who 8 maybe had hormone shots, so forth, who were already 9 changing, different body shapes and so forth. We 10 also looked -- and, you know, like I said, we'd 11 place them in different cells, solitary cells. We 12 had -- like you said, we had speakers in the cells. 13 We had, you know, officers watching out. We would 14 call them daily into the offices. And we had 15 assigned to each floor a counselor at the time that 16 I was there. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. So we did have individuals who were 19 constantly with inmates. 20 Q. How many transgender or transsexual 21 inmates did you have in 2007 at that facility? 22 A. Over 2007, I can't recall, because when it 23 come to my mind, this was -- I'm thinking about not 24 just State, but I'm thinking of County and Federal. 25 And to be honest, I can't recall. 27 1 Q. Well, I mean, did you have over 20? 2 A. Oh, no, not over 20. 3 Q. Okay. Over ten? 4 A. Not even over ten. 5 Q. Okay. But you kept a careful eye on them. 6 There was a handful, and regardless of where they 7 were, you would do the things you just described? 8 A. Exactly. 9 Q. Was there anything else about the profile 10 of a victim physically, emotionally, mentally, 11 educationally, criminogenically that, based on your 12 education and your experience, would make an inmate 13 at that facility more susceptible to sexual assault? 14 A. Based on my education and so forth, I 15 think there would be. There's always a risk in a 16 prison system. I don't think there is -- no matter 17 what prison you go to, there's always a dark corner. 18 And even if you had 24-hour eyes in every corner of 19 any prison -- and I think that's what the scary part 20 of a prison is. 21 Q. What about gang affiliation? Would not 22 being a gang member make you more likely to be 23 assaulted, or being a gang member make you more 24 likely to be assaulted sexually? 25 A. Yeah. And that's what I mean. I think 28 1 that's kind of a dual question, actually, because 2 that goes back to -- you talk about criminal. That 3 goes back to individuals who are getting the weaker 4 or, you know, getting people who are younger or 5 transsexual, homosexual, mentally disabled and 6 pimping them out. That could be a possibility. 7 Q. So if you're in a gang, you could be more 8 likely to be assaulted. If you're not in a gang, 9 you're more likely to be assaulted, then? 10 A. Either way. 11 Q. Okay. How about inmates being paired, 12 like a smaller inmate being paired with a larger 13 inmate or discrepancies? Do you see that happening 14 as a possibility -- 15 A. That could be a possibility. 16 Q. -- for sexual assault? 17 A. That could be a possibility. But I highly 18 see that not happening here. And the reason is is 19 because I know the unit manager here would watch 20 very closely as to which gang member was with who 21 and how that was happening. 22 Q. How about if an inmate had the history of 23 sexual assault, being a victim or even a 24 perpetrator? How would that make him more likely or 25 less likely to be a victim of sexual assault? 29 1 A. So you're asking me a double question 2 there. Please clarify. 3 Q. I'll ask you a single question. If a 4 person has in the past been a victim of sexual 5 assault, would that make him more likely to be a 6 victim in the future at the facility? 7 A. That would be logical. 8 Q. Okay. 9 FURTHER EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. McFARLAND: 11 Q. But has that been your experience or part 12 of your education? We don't want to suggest. We're 13 trying to just get a complete list. 14 A. That would be logical in any situation, 15 whether it's in the prison or outside of the prison. 16 FURTHER EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 18 Q. What if the person has a history of being 19 a perpetrator of sexual assault? Would that make 20 the person more likely to be a victim of sexual 21 assault at the facility? 22 A. If the person is a perpetrator, more 23 likely to be a victim of sexual assault in the 24 prison? 25 Q. Correct. Like retaliation, whether, you 30 1 know a prisoner wanted to get him because he 2 assaulted other people or other reasons. 3 A. I think that could happen in a prison. 4 Q. Do you see any differences in a victim 5 depending who the perpetrator is? For example, 6 would the victim characteristic differ if it's 7 inmate-on-inmate or staff-on-inmate, or are they the 8 same? 9 A. Repeat, please. 10 Q. Okay. We're talking about, you know, 11 potential victims of sexual assault in the prison. 12 Would the characteristics you talked about be the 13 same whether the perpetrator was a staff member or 14 another inmate? 15 A. In other words, do I think that the 16 perpetrator could be a staff member or an inmate? 17 Would the characteristics be the same? 18 Q. Right. In other words, if a staff member 19 is going to victimize an inmate, does the character 20 to that inmate differ from an inmate who's 21 victimized by another inmate? 22 A. I think a perpetrator is a perpetrator, 23 and a victim is a victim. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. Okay? I think questions -- let's keep the 31 1 questions clear, and we'll keep the answers very 2 clear. 3 Q. I'll do my best. 4 A. Thank you. 5 Q. I'll take my time with that. 6 A. Thank you. 7 Q. Does the victim characteristic differ 8 based on gender, whether it's a female inmate or 9 male inmate? 10 A. I don't think a perpetrator changes, and I 11 don't think a victim changes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. I think they're about the same. 14 FURTHER EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. McFARLAND: 16 Q. So the question was whether the change -- 17 it matters whether -- the person's gender. Was that 18 what you were answering? 19 A. Does it matter a person's gender? 20 Q. Is it relevant -- does a person's gender, 21 an inmate's gender, make them more or less likely to 22 be a victim of sexual assault at Torrance County 23 Detention Facility, in your experience and 24 education? 25 A. At Torrance County Facility -- to tell you 32 1 the truth, I never even heard of sexual assault 2 occurring here at Torrance County Detention Facility 3 here, not with inmate-on-inmate. Nothing was ever 4 reported to me. 5 Q. Okay. Based on your experience and 6 education, not necessarily, then, at Torrance County 7 Detention Facility, are female inmates more or less 8 likely to be a sexual assault victim than male 9 inmates? 10 A. That I cannot recall. I have not looked 11 up the current statistics. 12 MICHAEL VARNUM 13 (being previously duly sworn, testified as follows:) 14 EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 16 Q. Okay. Mr. Varnum, is there anything you 17 could add to the characteristics of potential 18 victims of sexual assault? 19 MR. McFARLAND: Or anything you disagree 20 with from Ms. Sanchez's list. 21 A. Well, from what I've seen, most inmates 22 that are sexually assaulted are small in build. 23 They're kind of young, less than 25. They've got 24 some feminine characteristics, no hair, very little 25 hair. It's usually the first time in prison. 33 1 They're usually well connected, or they have a means 2 of getting money. So they're forced to have money 3 sent in to pay off debts. If they've done a crime 4 that's against a kid and they've been a -- that kind 5 of perpetrator where they have molested a child, 6 those are usually picked out real quick. They may 7 have a mental illness. But that's what I've seen so 8 far. 9 Q. Okay. Mr. Varnum, let me just flip the 10 question around to the other side. What are 11 characteristics of perpetrators of sexual assault? 12 And first I'd like to talk about inmate-on-inmate 13 perpetrators. 14 A. They're normally been in prison a couple 15 of times. They've got a history of recidivism. 16 They are already -- they've had sexual assault 17 outside where they have been the aggressor, not 18 where they were sexually assaulted themselves. And 19 as far as the gang part -- 20 Q. Sure. 21 A. -- where y'all were asking, "If you're a 22 member of a gang, are you more likely to commit the 23 sexual assault?" if you read the bylaws of the 24 inmate gangs, it supposedly makes them weak, and you 25 won't find a gang member doing it. But, I mean, 34 1 that's just what they say. 2 Q. Sure. What are the characteristics of a 3 person who's a staff perpetrator of sexual assault? 4 A. From what I've seen, it's usually -- I 5 haven't seen too many male staff members involved in 6 sexual assault. I've seen quite a few females. And 7 they're usually low self-esteem. They're normally a 8 heavyset female. And they fall for the inmate's 9 line of, "Oh, you're beautiful, and I love you," and 10 all this stuff, "And I'm going to take care of you." 11 That's been my experience. 12 Q. But you definitely would see a 13 perpetrator, you said, among staff being more likely 14 to be female as opposed to male? 15 A. That's what I've seen so far. 16 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. 17 MS. CHUNN: A perpetrator? 18 MR. SIEDLECKI: Yeah. 19 Q. In other words, if a staff member is 20 engaging in sexual relations with an inmate. 21 A. The staff member has to be the 22 perpetrator, because there's no such thing as 23 consensual sex among an inmate. An inmate can't 24 have sex with a staff member, period. And if you do 25 it, then you're -- you're automatically the 35 1 perpetrator, even if the inmate is the one that came 2 on to the staff member or not. 3 MARIA SANCHEZ 4 (being previously duly sworn, testified as follows:) 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 7 Q. Ms. Sanchez, is there anything you could 8 add to what Warden Varnum said or anything you 9 disagree with? 10 MR. McFARLAND: About perpetrators. 11 A. I'm in agreement with Warden Varnum. 12 Q. Okay. 13 FURTHER EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. McFARLAND: 15 Q. Ms. Sanchez, you mentioned dark corners 16 are in every prison. Where are the dark corners in 17 the Torrance facility? Where do you think would be 18 the highest-risk places, physical, geographical 19 places or situations that are highest risk for an 20 inmate being sexually assaulted? 21 A. Actually, right now I don't feel qualified 22 to state that right now because, I mean, I haven't 23 been here in almost a year. So I know that they 24 have really done an overhaul on this place. And 25 they've -- I mean, it looks brand new in here. And 36 1 I think I definitely am not qualified to state 2 what's going on here, so ... 3 Q. The same question, except when you were 4 there in '07. 5 A. Okay. At that time, I am not qualified to 6 state that because I am not the one who knows the 7 dark corners of the physical aspects and the plans 8 and so forth like that. I don't know every nook and 9 cranny at this prison, nor would I. So my -- 10 Q. You were PREA coordinator. So do you have 11 any understanding of where you would want to warn an 12 inmate to be careful as of when you were there in 13 '07? 14 A. When I was there in '07 -- 15 Q. Do you have any idea where would be a 16 high-risk area in that facility? 17 A. Okay. You're talking about the PREA plans 18 and so forth, like under steps and so forth, and 19 corners and dark areas. And of course those are -- 20 like I said, in any prison, those are some -- in 21 isolated areas and so forth, you know, that's in 22 every prison. And that's why I stated to you that 23 today I cannot say if those are there or not, you 24 know. 25 Q. Yeah. No. I wasn't asking any more about 37 1 today. 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. I'm asking about '07. When you were PREA 4 coordinator, did you have -- could you name one 5 place where there was a dark corner in that 6 facility? 7 A. Actually, no. Actually, no, I could not 8 name a dark place that was always isolated. No. 9 Q. But every facility has one, according to 10 your testimony; is that right? 11 A. I was using that word more -- what would 12 you say? More kind of metaphorically. 13 Q. Yeah. 14 MICHAEL VARNUM 15 (being previously duly sworn, testified as follows:) 16 FURTHER EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 18 Q. How about Warden Varnum? Where would you 19 say the dark spots are or places where sexual 20 assault could occur? 21 A. Our most -- the blind spots that we have 22 that's not seen by video cameras is underneath the 23 stairwell. But you're not going to have a whole lot 24 of sexual assault that takes place underneath the 25 stairwell because it's in the open for the inmates. 38 1 MR. McFARLAND: Sure. 2 Q. How about, like, in the kitchen areas or 3 janitorial closets or places like that? 4 A. Kitchen areas are pretty wide open. 5 Janitorial closets, if you leave them open, could 6 be. But from what I've seen in the past and in my 7 experience, is most of the time they just do it in 8 their cells. And that's why we have rules against 9 inmates going into other inmates' cells. And that's 10 why we do our tours, to make sure that other inmates 11 are not in another inmate's cell, to try and prevent 12 that from happening. 13 FURTHER EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. McFARLAND: 15 Q. In the New Mexico DOC inmates in '07 who 16 were surveyed, they were in Unit 6, right? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And how many roving correctional officers 19 were going through Unit 6 in '07? 20 A. Should have been one in Pod Control and 21 two on the floor. 22 Q. And would the two go together or 23 separately? 24 A. Separately. 25 Q. And how often were they supposed to be, 39 1 you know, physically entering one of the Unit 6 2 pods? 3 A. Every hour they had to conduct a watch 4 tour, and every 30 minutes, they should have been 5 conducting a security check. So there should have 6 never been more than 30 minutes in between an 7 officer walking around in that pod. And then you 8 had a person in the control bubble who could watch 9 the unit at all times. He had open view of the unit 10 for all four of them. And then there was a person 11 in 5A because that's also where State inmates were 12 at. 13 Q. Yeah. So that person in the bubble was 14 looking at all four of the pods in Unit 6, and a 15 different control officer was looking at 5A; is that 16 correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. All right. And other than the stairwells 19 in Unit 6, were there any other blind spots that the 20 control officer wouldn't be able to see? 21 A. Well, the control officer cannot see into 22 each cell, you know, every bit of the cell. But he 23 can see -- that's the only spot he cannot see, is 24 under the stairwell. 25 Q. Yeah. But he can see partially into 40 1 several of the cells? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Now, were those two roving correctional 4 officers -- you said they were supposed to be going 5 in every 30 minutes. In your experience, were they, 6 in fact, doing so? 7 A. I would say for the most part that that 8 was happening. 9 Q. What might distract them, you know, in the 10 exceptional situation where they wouldn't be doing 11 that? 12 A. You might have had a fight in the unit. 13 You may have had a disturbance in the unit to where 14 they were focused on that one particular unit. And 15 then the other three might not have been as much 16 focus on. 17 Q. How long did it take to run a security 18 check in a pod in Unit 6? 19 A. It should take you two or three to five 20 minutes if you're doing it right, walking around and 21 looking in the cell, making sure that people are not 22 in there that's not supposed to be. 23 Q. And that would be two to three to five 24 minutes per pod for each of four pods in Unit 6? 25 A. Yes, sir. 41 1 Q. So if my math is right, then, an 2 individual rover should be able to cycle through all 3 four pods in Unit 6 last year inside -- anywhere 4 between as little as eight and as much as, you know, 5 20 minutes; is that right? 6 A. Probably closer to about 20. 7 Q. Yeah. 8 A. Because you're going to have inmates stop 9 and talk to you and everything else, so ... 10 Q. But the two officers are going separately; 11 is that right? 12 A. Right. I mean, that's -- sometimes they 13 may both be in the same unit, and sometimes they 14 don't. There's no set protocol that they have to go 15 in there separate or have to go in there apart 16 except for during count time. Then it takes two of 17 them to count. But as far as roving through there, 18 one could be in A; one could be in B. And then they 19 could just keep roving that way. 20 Q. Yeah. So with them going separately, you 21 kind of cut the time in half in the sense that if 22 it's taking 20 minutes for one to do a cycle, would 23 it be fair to say that typically an officer was 24 going through Unit 6 pod by himself every ten 25 minutes, then, or no? Or would you say it's more 42 1 like 20 minutes for anybody to be physically cycling 2 through a pod in Unit 6? 3 A. It all depends on what happens when you 4 walk into the pod. 5 Q. Yeah. 6 A. I mean, you can't give a set time on that. 7 It all depends on what happens. You don't know how 8 many inmates are going to come up to you and ask you 9 for advice or help or talk to you about something. 10 But I would say that there was at least an officer 11 in there every 30 minutes. 12 Q. Yeah. 13 MR. SIEDLECKI: Okay. I'd like to move on 14 to the core of the investigation questions. Before 15 I go into the heart of that, I just want to go over 16 some preliminary stuff. I guess the question would 17 go to you, Warden Varnum. 18 FURTHER EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 20 Q. Is an investigation mandatory or automatic 21 whenever an allegation of sexual assault is made? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. '07. All my questions apply to '07 as it 24 existed at the time. 25 A. Yes, sir. 43 1 Q. Is that your understanding in '07, as 2 well, sir? 3 A. Anytime there's an allegation of sexual 4 assault it has to be investigated. That's -- 5 Q. Okay. So it doesn't differ whether the 6 allegation is staff-on-inmate or inmate-on-inmate? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. Okay. If an allegation of sexual assault 9 is allegedly reported, what's done with the alleged 10 victim? 11 A. Well, it depends on what's happening. If 12 the inmate comes to you and says that they have been 13 sexually assaulted, you take him up to Medical, keep 14 him isolated as much as possible, give him as much 15 confidentiality as possible and have him checked. 16 If he says that -- he or she says they have been 17 raped, then you have to send them out to an outside 18 provider and have them checked for the assault. 19 Q. Do you know what the time limits are for 20 the forensic evidence collection, for example, like, 21 when you give a rape kit, when you can get other 22 evidence? Was there any time limits, like, 36 hours 23 this has to be done or you don't do it? 24 A. I think it's 24 hours. But we do not not 25 do it. No matter when he says, we still have to 44 1 take them out there. 2 Q. Okay. What do you do with the alleged 3 perpetrator of a sexual assault incident? 4 A. The alleged perpetrator? 5 Q. Correct. 6 A. He gets placed in segregation. 7 Q. What if it's a staff member? 8 A. Then you -- I've never experienced that. 9 Then I'd put them on administrative leave. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. I've never experienced that. 12 MR. McFARLAND: With or without pay? 13 MR. VARNUM: Sir? 14 MR. McFARLAND: With or without pay? 15 MR. VARNUM: It would have to be with pay 16 until I proved it true or false. 17 Q. (By Mr. Siedlecki) In regard to 18 segregating the alleged victim, is there a loss of 19 programming for that person if they're segregated? 20 A. Yes, sir, because that person would be on 21 prehearing confinement for investigation. 22 Q. Okay. 23 MS. CHUNN: Is it -- 24 MR. VARNUM: Hold it. 25 MS. CHUNN: You've never had -- hello? 45 1 A. Was that the victim you said that lost 2 their privileges? 3 Q. Correct, the victim. 4 A. Yes, sir, they would still lose them, too, 5 if I had to lock them up because they would be on 6 PHC. 7 MS. CHUNN: Can you hear me? 8 MR. VARNUM: Yes, ma'am. 9 MS. CHUNN: Okay. 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY MS. CHUNN: 12 Q. Did I understand you to say that you have 13 never had occasion to have a staff person who was 14 involved in a sexual assault with an inmate? 15 A. You understood me to say that, because I 16 have never had an inmate come and say that they had 17 been raped by a staff member. And that is what I 18 was talking about. 19 Q. Okay. I wanted to be clear about that. 20 A. Yes, ma'am. That's what I was talking 21 about. 22 FURTHER EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 24 Q. Okay. Are reports of sexual assault -- 25 are they tracked for inmate allegations? 46 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Same thing for staff-on-inmate 3 allegations? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Okay. If there's a staff-on-inmate 6 allegation, is the investigation closed if and when 7 the staff member resigns? 8 A. It all depends on if outside charges are 9 filed with the District Attorney. 10 Q. And what would determine that? 11 A. Whether the warden and the FSC 12 headquarters decided they wanted to take it or if 13 the District Attorney decided it was a case worth 14 pursuing. 15 FURTHER EXAMINATION 16 BY MS. CHUNN: 17 Q. Have you had occasion for that to happen? 18 Do you remember any incident where that did happen? 19 A. Ma'am? To where a district attorney said, 20 "Yeah, there's enough evidence. Let's proceed"? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. To this date, I have yet to have that 23 happen. 24 25 47 1 FURTHER EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 3 Q. And how often do you consult with the 4 District Attorney's office? Is it every case or 5 only when you think it rises to a certain level? 6 A. Sir, I don't -- I've never been the one to 7 take it that far, so I don't know. I can't answer 8 that. 9 Q. And what is the standard of proof in an 10 investigation of sexual assault at your facility? 11 Is it preponderance of the evidence? Beyond a 12 reasonable doubt? 13 A. Preponderance of evidence. 14 Q. Okay. And who would make the call whether 15 or not to consult the District Attorney? 16 A. The warden. 17 Q. The warden? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Okay. 20 FURTHER EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. McFARLAND: 22 Q. To your knowledge, have you ever heard 23 anything about whether the prosecutor in Torrance 24 County was more or less willing to prosecute 25 inmate-on-inmate rape or staff-on-inmate rape? 48 1 A. Sir, I don't know the answer to that for 2 Torrance County. 3 Q. Okay. So you have not heard any 4 scuttlebutt that says, you know, "The DA is going to 5 have to be really, really bored before he's ever 6 going to take one of these cases because he's got 7 more important things to do, and prisoners get what 8 they have coming," or words to that effect, or, you 9 know, any rumors like that? 10 A. Not for Torrance County, I have not heard 11 that. 12 Q. Have you ever heard that in Montana? 13 A. I have heard it before. 14 Q. Okay. 15 FURTHER EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 17 Q. Now I'd like to go over a couple -- 18 A. Sir, you're breaking up. 19 (A discussion was held off the record.) 20 MR. VARNUM: The court reporter's asking 21 me to have you repeat all that because we couldn't 22 hear you. 23 Q. Sure. I'm going to go over, like I said, 24 some information regarding the two investigations 25 you were involved in. And the documents I'm going 49 1 to refer to will be in regard to your response to 2 item 26 to our questions. And the two incident 3 reports are 07-2007-23 and incident report 4 07-2007-74. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Do you have the documents? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Okay. In regard to the first case -- I'm 9 not going to mention any people involved to protect 10 confidentiality -- which is, I guess, Case 11 Number 23. Can you tell us what your involvement 12 was, what you learned in it? The incident date was 13 February 13th, 2007. 14 A. Right. I think that's where we received a 15 phone call from the State of Colorado saying that 16 they had received phone calls to an inmate up there. 17 And once we done the investigation, it appeared it 18 was one of our staff members. 19 Q. Are you sure that's not 74? 20 A. That's 23. 21 Q. Twenty-three. Okay. Got it. Okay. 22 A. I'm pretty sure that's what it is. This 23 is where the officer -- the inmate said the 24 officer -- 25 Q. You're right. Exactly right. Correct. 50 1 A. The inmate was saying the officer had 2 rubbed her buttocks up against him, and the officer 3 said that the inmate had pulled her into the room. 4 Q. Exactly. That's correct. 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And what did you learn in that 7 investigation? 8 A. I learned that something inappropriate had 9 happened and that whenever the officer was 10 confronted with it, she said that she had fell in 11 love with the guy and had developed a relation, and 12 she resigned. 13 Q. Did you then pursue any criminal 14 investigations against her for what she had done? 15 A. Sir, I presented the facts to the warden, 16 and that's as far as I went with it. I didn't go -- 17 I didn't go any further with it. 18 Q. Okay. 19 FURTHER EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. McFARLAND: 21 Q. So on case 23, you had the testimony of 22 the victim, namely the inmate. 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you had the admission of the staff 25 member; is that correct? 51 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And you had the collaboration of the 3 Colorado prison authorities? There was 4 communication, ongoing communication, between the 5 two; is that correct? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Had you presented those three pieces of 8 evidence as part of your investigation to Warden 9 Ezell in February of '07? 10 A. No, sir. That would have been to Warden 11 Looney. 12 Q. Yeah. And what's your understanding, 13 whether it's firsthand or secondhand, on why that 14 referred to the prosecutor? 15 A. Why it was not referred to the prosecutor? 16 Q. Why is it -- why this person was allowed 17 to resign after admitting to sexual assault of an 18 inmate and she was never prosecuted? What did you 19 hear was the reason? I understand that wasn't your 20 decision. But what did you hear about why she 21 wasn't ever prosecuted? 22 A. Well, Mr. McFarland, I couldn't stop her 23 from resigning. 24 Q. Yeah. 25 A. And I would love to see some of these 52 1 people get prosecuted and put in jail where they 2 belong once they mess with an inmate like that. But 3 I can't answer the question as to why it wasn't 4 prosecuted or whether the warden or if FSC had 5 presented it to the attorney. I can't answer that. 6 Q. Okay. And you didn't hear any scuttlebutt 7 or any rumors about what had happened to this staff 8 member and why she wasn't prosecuted? 9 A. No, sir. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. I have learned in my -- 12 Q. Was there any follow-up? You know, did 13 the warden -- Warden Looney or anybody else use this 14 as a teachable moment for the rest of the staff, you 15 know, in the next in-service PREA training? And 16 this question is for either you or Ms. Sanchez, as 17 the PREA coordinator. Anybody use this as a 18 teachable moment to say, "Hey, this isn't all fair. 19 This isn't just a Moss Group video. This happens 20 and happened right here. And somebody lost a job 21 over it. So let's learn from this"? Was there 22 anything like that done at Torrance after this Case 23 Number 23? 24 A. I have used examples like that on numerous 25 occasions, sir. 53 1 Q. Including this case, I mean, actually 2 saying, "This happened here by somebody you know"? 3 A. Without mentioning names, yes, sir. 4 Q. All righty. 5 MARIA SANCHEZ 6 (being previously duly sworn, testified as follows:) 7 FURTHER EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. McFARLAND: 9 Q. Ms. Sanchez, how about you, in your PREA 10 training? 11 A. Yes. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Do you specifically mention, without 13 mentioning names, that, "This incident was an 14 example of staff-on-inmate misconduct that occurred 15 right here in Torrance County"? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 FURTHER EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 19 Q. And what happened to the victim in this 20 case, the inmate? 21 A. Is that directed to me or Warden Varnum? 22 Q. Either one of you could answer. 23 MS. SANCHEZ: Warden Varnum, can you -- 24 MR. VARNUM: I'm looking to see what I see 25 here. 54 1 MS. SANCHEZ: Okay. 2 MR. VARNUM: One of them transferred to 3 Colorado. I want to say that's how we found out 4 about it, is because she was allowing him to call 5 her from Colorado at the house. 6 MICHAEL VARNUM 7 (being previously duly sworn, testified as follows:) 8 FURTHER EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 10 Q. Okay. I'd like to go to the second 11 investigation. This is Number 74. The incident 12 date is July 10th of '07, occurred in Unit 6A. 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Tell us what you did with the 15 investigation and what happened. 16 A. Well, this one, we locked the inmate up in 17 segregation after we found out that there was 18 something going on. I listened to 47 phone calls 19 for about 23 hours and came to the conclusion that 20 this inmate and this officer were indeed having a 21 relationship that was inappropriate. I don't know 22 if there was any physical relationship. I wasn't 23 able to get enough information on that. But there 24 was enough information that I was willing to 25 recommend that she be terminated. And she resigned, 55 1 also, when I -- before I could even get a statement 2 from her. 3 Q. Did the investigation continue after she 4 resigned? 5 A. No, sir, because there was no further for 6 me to go with it. All I could do is tell the 7 warden, "This is what happened. This was what was 8 going on." And then it was left up to him as far as 9 what we wanted to do from there. 10 Q. Was that Looney? 11 A. No, sir. That would have been Ezell. 12 Q. And do you know if the District Attorney 13 was contacted by anybody at Torrance in regard to 14 this case? 15 A. I am under the impression that they were. 16 And I think that what happened on this one is they 17 didn't think there was enough evidence to pursue it, 18 to get a criminal conviction. 19 Q. In one of your documents, you state, 20 "While there is not enough evidence to support 21 outside charges, it is recommended she not be 22 eligible for rehire within CCA." 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Did you follow up on that to make sure 25 this person wasn't rehired within CCA where she 56 1 could do further harm? 2 A. I can't tell you that I followed up on 3 that because when I put that in there, what should 4 have happened was there should have been a code put 5 by her name inside of the KRONO system that whenever 6 they pull her up on any kind of application ever 7 again, it should come up as flagged. "Do not 8 rehire." 9 Q. And what could be done to prevent her from 10 being hired by any state or local prison or jail 11 system? How would they know that this person is a 12 potential predator? 13 A. I don't know the answer to that, sir. But 14 I wish there was some way to do it. 15 Q. If it had been up to you, would you have 16 recommended criminal charges going against this 17 individual? Forty-seven phone calls in 23 hours is 18 a lot of things going on. 19 A. Right. But I've got to prove beyond a 20 shadow of a doubt that something happened inside of 21 a criminal court of law for that. Whereas, inside 22 the prison, for me to get rid of her, all I have to 23 do is have a preponderance of evidence. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. So I don't know how we will get the two 57 1 systems to work together so we can start prosecuting 2 people like that. 3 Q. If it was up to you, what would you 4 recommend to get that to work better? Like, for 5 example, regular meetings of the District Attorney? 6 You know, lunch with the person? Getting a status 7 report? How is it you'd make that coordination 8 between the facility and the District Attorney's 9 office? 10 A. You know, I don't know the answer to that 11 because when I was in Montana, we done all that. We 12 went to the District Attorney and talked to him 13 about the cases and all this good stuff. And we 14 presented rape cases to him. And I don't know the 15 answer to make it to where it works better. 16 FURTHER EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. McFARLAND: 18 Q. Did it work better in Montana after you 19 did that? 20 A. We had a good relationship with the 21 District Attorney. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Did the DA ever prosecute one of your 23 referrals? 24 A. As far as I know, yes. But it was an 25 inmate-on-inmate. It wasn't inmate on staff or 58 1 staff-on-inmate. 2 FURTHER EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 4 Q. And in your opinion, working with the DA, 5 did it make any difference whether it's 6 staff-on-inmate or inmate-on-inmate? 7 A. I don't think if you have enough evidence 8 it would matter one way or the other. 9 Q. Okay. In regard to this particular case, 10 74, was this case used as an example -- again, with 11 confidentiality provisions -- where you would tell 12 your staff at Torrance, again, "This is what 13 happened right here, and you can lose your job as a 14 result"? 15 A. Yes, sir, it was. 16 Q. Okay. Okay. 17 A. But I only -- I don't only use stuff that 18 happened at Torrance. I use stuff that's happened 19 through my career. 20 FURTHER EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. McFARLAND: 22 Q. How many years have you been in 23 corrections, Warden Varnum? 24 A. Since 1989. 25 59 1 FURTHER EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 3 Q. And how would you rate the systems that 4 proceeded that were in effect in 2007 at Torrance 5 with your experience elsewhere? The same? Better? 6 Worse? In regard to sexual assault prevention, 7 PREA, and the like. 8 A. I think New Mexico is a little behind the 9 curve, as far as getting it advertised about sexual 10 assault and all that stuff. 11 Q. Where are they weakest? 12 A. Well, we didn't have a phone line for the 13 inmates to dial into. And we had some posters up, 14 but it wasn't as many as I think we should have had. 15 But I think we've got it now. 16 Q. Okay. And that's the next question. I'll 17 ask you first, Warden Varnum. What would you do to 18 improve the Torrance facility? Would you put more 19 cameras in? More staff? Better training? What 20 would you do to make it better? More posters? 21 A. The training's good. You know, the 22 training's pretty good. The staffing's good. But 23 it would be nice to have a whole-lot-better camera 24 system to where I can record every single unit and 25 have it to where I could review it for 30 days and 60 1 stuff like that. And we're working on that. We 2 just haven't got it yet. We've got some. But I 3 want it in every single unit in every area that we 4 have inmates. 5 Q. How long do your video cameras record, and 6 how long is it saved? 7 A. Well, they record 24-7. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. And you're supposed to be able to go back 10 for at least 30 days. 11 Q. Okay. 12 FURTHER EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. McFARLAND: 14 Q. But, in fact, in 2007, how long did you 15 archive the surveillance tapes from those cameras? 16 A. It's the same thing, sir. It's supposed 17 to last 30 days for the ones that are recorded. 18 FURTHER EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 20 Q. So besides cameras, what else did you do 21 to improve the facility? 22 A. Well, we've already -- we already have 23 Policy 14-2. And we're making PREA and sexual 24 assault reporting a topic of concern and the hot 25 topic at the forefront. We've got posters 61 1 everywhere. We've got the hotline where the inmates 2 can call into now. It's in the handbook. We do the 3 questionnaire at intake and when we're starting to 4 book. So as far as that, I think we're where we 5 need to be. But to get -- 6 Q. Are you happy with the quality of 7 training -- in 2007, were you happy with the quality 8 of the training of your COs, or correctional 9 officers? 10 A. Yes, sir. Our training's good for our 11 correction officer staff. 12 Q. And do you feel you were getting the type 13 of quality officer you needed at the lower rate of 14 about ten bucks an hour? Do you think you were 15 getting the quality person you needed? 16 A. For the most part, yes, we were getting 17 very good staff. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. But obviously we're not -- 20 Q. Like, for example, you increased 21 orientation for inmates in regard to reporting, in 22 regard to sexual assault. Anything else you would 23 recommend? 24 A. Well, I think we need to look at a deeper 25 problem as far as reporting of sexual assault, 62 1 because once they report the sexual assault, it 2 don't stay confidential no matter how hard you try. 3 And then that inmate's going to get known as a 4 snitch. And then that inmate's going to have a 5 rough life the rest of his time in prison. So 6 sometimes it's easier for that inmate not to say 7 nothing and just deal with it until he gets out 8 rather than ever report it. And that's -- you've 9 got to break that barrier down before we're ever 10 going to truly get where this PREA is wanting to get 11 to. 12 Q. How do you break that barrier down? Is it 13 a hotline? Is it sort of confidential grievances? 14 How do you break that barrier? 15 A. Well, if I go and report to you that I've 16 been sexually assaulted and I go and make the 17 outside charge, that inmate that I'm telling 18 sexually assaulted me is going to get a copy of my 19 statement to you because it's his right to have 20 discovery or whatever. So it's never going to break 21 down. 22 Q. You're right. 23 A. It's messed up because if I tell you, 24 you're going to go and tell somebody I told you. So 25 why should I tell you? Because now I'm going to get 63 1 my ass whooped every day I'm in here. 2 MARIA SANCHEZ 3 (being previously duly sworn, testified as follows:) 4 FURTHER EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 6 Q. Ms. Sanchez, what would you do to improve 7 Torrance facility to lessen sexual assault? 8 A. That's a hard -- that's a hard thing to 9 say, because right now, like I said, I'm not here 10 right now. And I wouldn't know how to comment on 11 that because I don't know. They've improved on 12 things right now, so I wouldn't know how to comment 13 on that. 14 Q. What would you have liked when you were 15 there in 2007 to have been done? Better training of 16 the COs? More orientation for the inmates? More 17 posters? A hotline? 18 A. I think what they've already improved on, 19 I probably would have improved on the same things. 20 Probably I just have to piggyback on what Warden 21 Varnum has just said. 22 23 24 25 64 1 MICHAEL VARNUM 2 (being previously sworn, testified as follows:) 3 FURTHER EXAMINATION 4 BY MS. CHUNN: 5 Q. Warden, did you -- do you have any 6 evidence beyond the things that you changed, the 7 posters you put up, the revised handbook, all of 8 that -- do you have any evidence in terms of numbers 9 of complaints that what you've done has made an 10 improvement? 11 A. No, I don't have any evidence that it has 12 improved anything. 13 MARIA SANCHEZ 14 (being previously duly sworn, testified as follows:) 15 FURTHER EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. McFARLAND: 17 Q. Ms. Sanchez? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Have you seen the Bureau of Justice 20 Statistics' special report on "Sexual Victimization 21 in Local Jails," reported by inmates in 2007, which 22 was released in June of 2008? 23 A. Was it in the file, some of the paperwork 24 that we just read? I think it was. Let me see 25 where that is. You said it was 2008? 65 1 Q. Yeah. This is the report that identifies 2 in Table 2 that of the jails -- almost 300 jails 3 that were sampled in 50 states, the Torrance County 4 Detention Facility in New Mexico had the highest 5 reported rape or reported inmate sexual 6 victimization in the country. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. Have you read that report? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What do you make of it? What -- how -- do 11 you think it's accurate? 12 A. No. 13 Q. How do you explain that 67 inmates 14 surveyed indicated that 13.4 percent of them had 15 some kind of -- experienced some kind of sexual 16 victimization? Was that all -- were they all lying 17 and just trying to screw the administration? Or 18 what meaning do you make out of that survey? 19 A. Okay. I -- you know, when you work in a 20 prison, I am not going to -- you know, whether there 21 was victimization or whether there wasn't 22 victimization, I did not hear at that time any of 23 them stating anything, because they knew if they 24 complained to Mental Health that we would do 25 something for them. And that's where I'm basing my 66 1 comment from, or my statement from. Because I'm not 2 somebody who doesn't take action. I would. 3 FURTHER EXAMINATION 4 BY MS. CHUNN: 5 Q. Ms. Sanchez? 6 A. Yes, ma'am. 7 Q. That statement implies to me that perhaps 8 in other places in the institution that would not be 9 true, that there may be other places where action 10 would not be taken as speedily. Am I correct in 11 understanding what you infer? 12 A. Actually, no. If I was at any other 13 place, even here or any other place, if somebody was 14 experiencing harm to themselves or others, I would 15 take action. 16 Q. I understand you would take action. 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. But your comment suggested to me that 19 perhaps that might not be true in other places than 20 that institution. 21 A. No. That's not what I was suggesting. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. No. I'm talking about myself. I'm 24 stating that if any of these individuals that we 25 were overseeing, Mental Health was overlooking, and 67 1 these individuals came to Mental Health and we are 2 overlooking these individuals, you know -- and they 3 had privacy with Mental Health, and these guys knew 4 it, because Mental Health did have close watch over 5 them -- that they had that privacy to be able to 6 come forward to us. And I did not hear nothing 7 about it. 8 MR. McFARLAND: And did you have -- I 9 think what you're being asked, do you have the same 10 level of confidence in 2007 about all the rest of 11 the staff? 12 MS. CHUNN: That's exactly my question. 13 A. Yes. Actually -- I'm sorry for 14 misunderstanding. 15 Q. That's all right. I was not clear. 16 A. I understand -- I trust the staff today, 17 as I did in 2007, with my back. That's why I would 18 come to work here immediately tomorrow, because I 19 know these guys would pull me out of any situation 20 if I was in danger. So I trust them with my life. 21 FURTHER EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. McFARLAND: 23 Q. Would you trust them with the safety of 24 any inmate there? 25 A. Yes, I would, because I've seen it. I've 68 1 seen these guys offer quality -- and I mean quality 2 care. If I said that an inmate had to be removed 3 because they were in danger, these guys moved them 4 immediately. They did not even wait two seconds. 5 They moved. I've gone to Warden Varnum, Warden 6 Ezell, Warden Looney. And I asked. And they did. 7 Q. When I was touring the facility in 8 mid-September -- 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. -- I was speaking with some of the County 11 inmates. 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. And one of them with whom I was not 14 speaking walked by and placed on the table in front 15 of me a note that I shared with Warden Ezell later. 16 Have you heard of a note? 17 A. No, sir. 18 Q. I'll just read a portion of it. It says, 19 "Dear Ladies and Gentlemen" -- so this person 20 evidently knew that there are two females. 21 (A discussion was held off the record.) 22 Q. That there were two females on this Review 23 Panel. And then there were -- the anonymous writer 24 says, "Although I have not yet been sexually 25 assaulted at TCDF, I have concerns that should an 69 1 event of this nature occur, response would be slow 2 to come. And when it did, would be mishandled. I 3 say this based on the following observations. There 4 seems to be pervasive attitude of 5 'nonaccountability' within the staff here when 6 approached for assistance. Many times a response, 7 such as, 'It's not my job,' or, 'They' (some other 8 entity within TCDC), 'were supposed to do that,' is 9 more commonly received than not. Getting help from 10 designated officers is difficult, even with small 11 requests, and often requires multiple approaches. 12 In a situation requiring a rapid response and 13 discretion, it's doubtful if the staff here would be 14 capable of the coordination needed to handle such an 15 event. What I would like to suggest is that certain 16 staff members be trained to respond with sensitivity 17 and," underline, "accountability. Thank you. Need 18 to improve effective communication," underline. And 19 it's not signed. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. What do you make of that note from this 22 anonymous inmate? 23 A. It's a good note. But at the same time, 24 the County inmates at that time -- we had -- if I 25 remember correctly, we had very little County 70 1 inmates. And usually County inmates and everybody 2 in Federal, people -- if I remember correctly, we 3 had one counselor who was seeing anywhere from -- 4 doing intakes, we were seeing ten to 15 daily. And 5 we were seeing the crises clients very, very 6 quickly. So my concern is, if there was a crisis 7 call, they were being responded to. So my concern 8 is, what was the basis of that note? I would have 9 liked to sit down with this individual and look at 10 his reasoning a little further. 11 MICHAEL VARNUM 12 (being previously sworn, testified as follows:) 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. McFARLAND: 15 Q. Warden Varnum, what do you make of the 16 note? Do you agree with it? 17 A. As far as responding to a situation in a 18 pod, I think we respond very quickly. At least the 19 inmate says he hasn't been sexually assaulted. So 20 I'm glad of that. 21 Q. Yeah. 22 A. But as far as his opinion on how it would 23 be dealt with if it was reported, I think -- 24 Q. When you say "responding quickly to an 25 incident," here he's not talking -- he's talking 71 1 about -- he or she -- it was a male -- about a rapid 2 response to a request, not necessarily, you know, a 3 fight, if that's what you mean by "an incident." Do 4 you agree that there seems to be, "a pervasive 5 attitude of nonaccountability among the staff, that 6 they tend to say, 'That's not my job. It's somebody 7 else's job.' You have to approach them multiple 8 times for small requests, and it's doubtful that 9 you're going to get a rapid response to those 10 requests"? Do you agree with that? 11 A. I would truly hope that that's not the 12 case. 13 Q. Would you agree with that as of 2007? 14 A. No, sir. Most of these staff here are 15 very good staff. I mean, I see them going all out 16 for what they need to get for the inmates. Now, 17 whether his opinion is because I didn't -- the 18 person didn't drop everything they were doing to get 19 whatever it was that might have been asked that may 20 not have been as important as something else that 21 was going on, you know, I can't answer if that's 22 what he's saying or not. But I think if someone was 23 to report something happening, it would be dealt 24 with quickly. 25 Q. Do you think this was written by a staff 72 1 member and given to an inmate to give to me? 2 A. I have no clue about that right there. I 3 would hope not. I would hope a staff member would 4 just go ahead and approach you and say it or come to 5 me and tell me, "Hey, I don't think this is being 6 handled right." But the note did sound like it was 7 written by someone fairly intelligent. 8 Q. It sounded like it was written by -- 9 A. Someone fairly intelligent. 10 Q. Yeah. I mean, there's only one misspelled 11 word here. There's no -- there's no profanity. And 12 you've got words like "nonaccountability" and 13 "pervasive attitudes" and "multiple approaches" 14 and -- I haven't run into too many folks -- too many 15 inmates with that kind of skill in writing. Have 16 you? 17 A. Yes, sir, I have. 18 Q. All right. 19 A. I've seen several that can write that 20 well. 21 Q. Okay. 22 FURTHER EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 24 Q. One final thing before I close down, I 25 guess, is, Warden Varnum, were you involved in any 73 1 inmate-on-inmate sexual assault investigations for 2 2007? 3 A. Was I? 4 Q. Correct. I know you said that Mr. Miller 5 was involved in most of the inmate-on-inmate -- 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. -- allegations. 8 A. Mr. Miller was the disciplinary 9 investigator during that time. No, sir. I can't 10 recall being involved in one at this facility. 11 Q. Okay. There's one case -- it's 12 2007-07-33, I believe -- where you were a witness. 13 Where two female inmates were engaged in some type 14 of sexual activity. 15 A. Yes, sir. I know what you're talking 16 about. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. But I think they were kissing out on the 19 rec yard. 20 Q. Okay. I guess my question would be, would 21 the standard for an investigation be the same for an 22 inmate-on-inmate as it would be for a 23 staff-on-inmate? 24 A. I really can't say that it would be 25 because I don't think it's looked at the same, 74 1 because those two females -- it wouldn't have been 2 an assault, most likely, because they were probably 3 having a relationship, and they were just kissing. 4 Q. Sure. 5 A. So I don't think that that would be looked 6 at the same. I know it wouldn't -- 7 FURTHER EXAMINATION 8 BY MR. McFARLAND: 9 Q. Is this the same incident we're talking 10 about where actually one inmate was rubbing another 11 in their genital area in the yard? 12 A. I didn't see that one. Which report are 13 you referring to, sir? 14 MR. SIEDLECKI: It's Case Number 33. That 15 would be -- let me see which part this would be. 16 This would be in question number 23. 17 MR. VARNUM: Okay. 18 MR. McFARLAND: Response to our question 19 number 23. 20 MR. SIEDLECKI: Yeah. Just that there was 21 a report written by you -- by one CO saying that the 22 inmate was witnessed by herself and you to be in the 23 yard rubbing the genital area of another inmate in a 24 sexual manner. And item 23 would be -- 25 MR. VARNUM: I see it. 75 1 MR. SIEDLECKI: -- the fifth case going 2 down. 3 MR. VARNUM: I got it. 4 MR. SIEDLECKI: Okay. 5 Q. (By Mr. McFarland) Do you recall this 6 incident? 7 A. Yes, sir, I recall the incident. But what 8 I saw was the kissing part. I didn't -- I wish I 9 had seen -- had my report that I had to write on 10 this. 11 MR. SIEDLECKI: Your report is two pages 12 after that. What you state here is -- it's 4 and 13 5-1C. You said, "I saw two female inmates unknown 14 to me at the northwest corner of the south rec yard 15 behaving inappropriately. They were holding hands 16 and rubbing each other's crotch and breasts." 17 MR. VARNUM: Okay. Well, I don't have 18 that. I thought we was talking about a different 19 one. 20 MR. SIEDLECKI: Okay. 21 MR. McFARLAND: This was supposedly typed 22 by M.B. Varnum on July 26th of '07. 23 MR. VARNUM: Right. I've got the report. 24 I just don't have my 5-1C that you're referring to. 25 I've got the disciplinary report. And what is -- 76 1 FURTHER EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 3 Q. Okay. So in your -- I guess my general 4 question is, if it's an inmate-on-inmate or 5 staff-on-inmate allegation of sexual assault, is it 6 treated differently or the same? 7 A. If it's a staff-on-inmate, then I'm going 8 to probably be the one that investigates it. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. If it's a disciplinary report, such as 11 this one -- 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. -- which is not -- which is not -- I 14 understand it's sexual misconduct and it's 15 inappropriate and it's against the rules. But it's 16 not -- it's not rape. 17 Q. How would you know, for example, if one of 18 the inmates was coercing another one? It may look 19 like consensual relations or, quote, consensual 20 relations, if there can't be such a thing in a 21 prison setting, then how would you -- do you then 22 need to find out if a person is being forced to do 23 it, or if they're doing it, quote, consensually 24 because they want protection or they're being 25 extorted? 77 1 A. Well, that's where I hope that you develop 2 enough of a rapport with the inmate that they will 3 come and tell you and they would have told the 4 disciplinary investigator when they were conducting 5 the investigation. 6 FURTHER EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. McFARLAND: 8 Q. But then they become a snitch, and that 9 results in getting their rear end whooped on a daily 10 basis -- 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. -- is that right? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 FURTHER EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. SIEDLECKI: 16 Q. So it's a catch-22. They have to continue 17 to take the abuse. If they come forward, they're 18 going to be abused even more, possibly. 19 A. That's entirely true. 20 FURTHER EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. McFARLAND: 22 Q. So in your experience, in 19 years of 23 corrections, how could we do this differently so 24 that the victim, the green, under-25, small-framed, 25 naive, first-time offender who gets picked up or 78 1 assaulted doesn't have to choose between becoming a 2 snitch and therefore a marked man or stand a victim? 3 A. You want my honest opinion and answer on 4 this? 5 Q. Yes, sir, just like every question. 6 A. Well, you're going to have to start from 7 the time a young one's a kid and from the time 8 they're in school and get rid of this "Don't rat" 9 mentality and "Don't be a snitch and a tattletale" 10 mentality. You're going to have to take all these 11 crude jokes that are talked about on talk radio and 12 on television and on the movies where, "Oh, I hope 13 you go to prison for that right there and get stuck 14 in a cell with Bubba and bend over picking up the 15 shower soap," you know. And I know every one of you 16 have heard them jokes that's told on the radio and 17 that's seen in TVs and on movies. 18 And you're going to have to quit having 19 that, because for society, that's punishment in 20 itself for an inmate for committing a crime and 21 going into prison. And until we change that 22 mindset, it's going to continue on no matter how 23 much education we do and how much we put up the 24 posters for PREA and how much we encourage. It's 25 going to keep happening. 79 1 MR. McFARLAND: Gwen, do you have any 2 other questions? 3 MS. CHUNN: No. I was thinking about what 4 the Warden just said. And it just struck a chord 5 with me. That's all. No. I think not. 6 MR. McFARLAND: Well, Warden Varnum and 7 Ms. Sanchez, thank you very much for your time, for 8 making it possible for us to gain the benefit of 9 your insights and your recollection. And if 10 anything occurs to you later that you want to add or 11 subtract from your testimony, I think you'll see a 12 copy of it. And you can write that on the errata 13 sheet. 14 And I didn't make my usual little speech 15 at the beginning, but this is not any of the Panel's 16 day jobs. This is -- and it's not a criminal 17 prosecution. So we appreciate your help in helping 18 us try to help the National Prison Rape Elimination 19 Commission and others at BJS to try to eliminate 20 systematically this scourge of sexual assault. So I 21 appreciate very much your time. And this hearing 22 stands adjourned. 23 MR. VARNUM: Thank you, sir. 24 MS. SANCHEZ: Thank you. 25 (The hearing concluded at 8:45 a.m.) 80 1 STATE OF NEW MEXICO 2 COUNTY OF TORRANCE 3 4 5 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 6 I, MELISSA CORREA, New Mexico CCR #279, DO 7 HEREBY CERTIFY that on October 31, 2008, the 8 proceedings in the above-captioned matter were taken 9 before me, that I did report in stenographic 10 shorthand the proceedings set forth herein, and the 11 foregoing pages are a true and correct transcription 12 to the best of my ability. 13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither 14 employed by nor related to nor contracted with 15 (unless excepted by the rules) any of the parties or 16 attorneys in this case, and that I have no interest 17 in the final disposition of the case in any court. 18 19 20 ___________________________________ Melissa Correa, RPR 21 Certified Court Reporter #279 License Expires: December 31, 2008 22 23 24 (1421D) MEL Date Taken: October 31, 2008 Proofread by: TEZ 25 81 1 RECEIPT 2 (1421D) MEL HEARING RE: Prison Rapes DATE TAKEN: October 31, 2008 3 ************************** 4 ATTORNEY: Mr. Joseph J. Swiderski 5 DOCUMENT: Transcript / Exhibits / Disks / Other ____ 6 DATE DELIVERED: ______________ DEL'D BY: __________ 7 REC'D BY: _______________ TIME: __________________ 8 ************************** 9 ATTORNEY: 10 DOCUMENT: Transcript / Exhibits / Disks / Other ____ 11 DATE DELIVERED: ______________ DEL'D BY: __________ 12 REC'D BY: _______________ TIME: __________________ 13 ************************** 14 ATTORNEY: 15 DOCUMENT: Transcript / Exhibits / Disks / Other ____ 16 DATE DELIVERED: ______________ DEL'D BY: __________ 17 REC'D BY: _______________ TIME: __________________ 18 *************************** 19 ATTORNEY: 20 DOCUMENT: Transcript / Exhibits / Disks / Other ____ 21 DATE DELIVERED: ______________ DEL'D BY: __________ 22 REC'D BY: _______________ TIME: __________________ 23 24 25